Is Grand Prix series ready to downsize to 5 events?

[labgoat]

To add my two cents, the thing that I find missing in skating competitions is SHOWMANSHIP. It is the reason that footwork sequences from Robin Cousins, Brian Orser, Phillippe Candeloro, Kurt Browning, Midori Ito, Michelle Kwan and many more are beloved and rewatched. They are full of passion, musical, fast and easily understood by skaters and non-skaters. The good intentions of requiring more and more difficult turns and steps in IJS have slowed down the step sequences and confused audiences who do not know one turn from another. The steps are often not matched to the music, executed with intense concentration and not directed towards the audience. Jumps do not suffer this musical dilemma as they can still be timed to the music whether single, double, triple or quads. Spins nowadays change edges and positions so fast, the general audience comes away thinking - well it was complicated so it must be worth more and the value of a beautifully executed spin done at speed for a sustained period is undervalued. Lets have more options in allowing skaters to choose different ways to gain points on these elements. Maybe the required complicated turns could be performed individually and replace some of the endless crossovers we see instead of creating such unmusical and corkscrewed footwork sequences. Maybe a spin done at speed with more rotations done in a single position that gives the appearance of a music box or gyroscope should be rewarded more.

As to less events on the Grand Prix - no way! We need to promote the human interest side of skating more - that is why so many people will tune into a previously unknown sport to suddenly become big fans. Take gymnastics Pommel Horse suddenly made popular by an unknown American- or a Brazilian lady performing floor exercise to the music of her culture. Bla bla bla on points gained here and there are boring to the general public who justs wants an enjoyable watch. Likewise jumps double, triple, axel vs Lutz, mean little to general audiences as they don't not know the difference and are not interested in a PhD of skating. Thrilling, fast creative entries and landings are what make audiences react. Also don't forget the value of what attracts everyone to ice skating - the value of a great, sustained glide. Watch some show and exhibitions to see what general audiences respond too and figure out a way to adjust the scoring to encourage and reward that when done with excellence.

 

[eppen]

My point is more about the number of quads, not the type or the order of them. 3 quads is already quite a lot... and usually, the skaters will put them one after another.... at the beginning... but 4 quads, with Yuma when he added the flip (after injury, I believe he did a 3 quad program) is too much... Consider the two 3axels as well, and there is almost absolutely no time for choreography.

Alas, another of my fave points

So, before multiple quads and with 4 min 30 s programs, the "choreo" was generally put into a 15-30 s break before the 2nd part jumps. This could be pretty stationary or have more movement, usually more on the stationary side. It was literally a rest before getting into the jumps again, and vaguely disguised as choreo.

Otherwise the division of time between the elements back then was more or less the same as now - about 40-50% to the jumps and their approaches, 15-20% to spins and 20-30% to steps and chsq. Then 5-15% to things that are not directly related to the elements, usually the intro. This did not change a lot even when mid-2010s men started to jump 4-5 quads. When the 4 min free was introduced, the break vanished and the time used for other things dropped well below 10% = intro.

Now I am wondering whether that was more like a fashion in designing the programs - all the choreo was included in the transitions between elements. And this is because when I went through the top 6 frees from 2024 worlds, suddenly the break was back for some skaters. Lukas Britschgi, Adam, Yuma and Ilia all had 15-25 s of cheoreo somewhere in their programs that did not belong to the transitions between elements. For the others it was in the traditional place, but Ilia had in the end, between the two spins, like an addition chsq.

I have no idea how they're able to squeeze that much time out of everything else, but they manage somehow. This is particularly so with Ilia who has the most quads. Yuma is looking to add the 4th quad now seriously and that has slightly changed his timing - there is a break after the first spin, but a very short one before launching into the last quad. Otherwise his times looked pretty much the same as last year. I don't see him doing less choreo and musical interpretation than before but I do think the choreo is not great to that style and music, a bit bland, not sharp enough. The bit that excites me most is the fabulous change in pace and intensity with the music in the steps.

Adam did 2+4 regularly last season, but has not been able to do that because of the summer injury yet. But his Dune free is timed for doing 4 quads sometime down the line (I hope). And he has a 20+ long break when he literally lies down on the ice in a sequence that is directly telling the Dune story and very much choreo. He also has a longish full stop inside the step sequence. I am a little on the fence with the stationary bits.

For the most part, the choreo is built into the approaches to elements, there is no particular choreo time in them. Depending on the skater's skill and level of difficulty, they can do more detail and engage better with the music. One of my fave's, Aleksandr Selevko ditched his marvelous tango free and went back to last year's program. When I watched the old one in Helsinki, I immediately saw why - if you have problems with jumps, then having a simpler whole is better. And this is exactly what he said afterwards: the tango choreo had so much detail that he could not focus on the jumps the way he needs to do.

A skilled jumper can do more detail and still get the jumps done. Though not everyone is really capable of doing both even if the jumps come easy. This is why quite a few of the Russian quadsters are pretty boring to watch IMO - loads of jumps but little effort to fill in the gaps with anything remotely interesting. It is also possible that they're not interested in doing more choreo between the elements (Gumennik being one of the exceptions perhaps).

E

 

[lariko]

However, I was wondering how have the audiences received this attitude and also the change in number of competitions? I have not watched all of them but was struck by how empty the stands were at Krasnoyarsk and even in the last comp at St Petersburg there were quite a lot of empty seats... So I checked and Moscow the same - lots of empty spaces. The Kazan rink looked tiny and that one also not so full. Magnitogorsk was fine, though. Also, it was interesting to note that pairs and dance were not included in all the comps.

It looks like very skater though skates more competition than they normally would have, because they added a few extra specialty tournaments that are about the same value as RGP. Though I don't get it what the League of Champions is going to be. I find the russified score box sometimes confusing, since elements are spelled out beyond what international shorthand would show, like 'lift with a grab at the hip', sometimes easier, like Twizzles 4+4. There is a robust response from the audience at the rink to songs in Russian, but part of it is maybe because skaters who select them are also powerful performers, like Savosin or Aliev. Aliev in particular flies the banner of his simple Siberian dudeness as his brand. We'll see what they will keep next year, because in general, they tend to keep what they feel was working.

 

[Mathman]

To add my two cents, the thing that I find missing in skating competitions is SHOWMANSHIP. It is the reason that footwork sequences from Robin Cousins, Brian Orser, Phillippe Candeloro, Kurt Browning, Midori Ito, Michelle Kwan and many more are beloved and rewatched. They are full of passion, musical, fast and easily understood by skaters and non-skaters.

This is an outstanding post and very relevant, in my opinion, to the decline in audience interest in figure skating competitions.

Maybe a spin done at speed with more rotations done in a single position that gives the appearance of a music box or gyroscope should be rewarded more.

I for one sorely miss the rousing show-stopping climax of a marvelous blurr spin, not to mention the refined elegance of the "music box" layback.

Take gymnastics. Pommel Horse suddenly made popular by an unknown American- or a Brazilian lady performing floor exercise to the music of her culture. Bla bla bla on points gained here and there are boring to the general public who justs wants an enjoyable watch.

Steven Nedoroscik! What a Cinderalla story. Nerdy unknown tries on the glass slipper and next thing you know he's prince-charming his way through Dancing With The Stars. (My second favorite: Rugby 7s Olympian Iliona Maher.)

 

[eppen]

There is a robust response from the audience at the rink to songs in Russian, but part of it is maybe because skaters who select them are also powerful performers, like Savosin or Aliev. Aliev in particular flies the banner of his simple Siberian dudeness as his brand. We'll see what they will keep next year, because in general, they tend to keep what they feel was working.

Simple Siberian dudeness of Aliev Love that! But he is by far the most expressive of the lot IMO although this year's free is annoying with the endless voiceover. It was fun to watch the Evgeni Onegins back to back in their first meeting! Savosin also surprised me last year since I remember him as the jumper from his junior days, not much to offer otherwise, and now he does really interesting stuff with conviction and commitment.

I guess people are going to hit the stands with the new competition formats since the old one did not really attract that many people...

E

 

[4everchan]

Alas, another of my fave points

So, before multiple quads and with 4 min 30 s programs, the "choreo" was generally put into a 15-30 s break before the 2nd part jumps. This could be pretty stationary or have more movement, usually more on the stationary side. It was literally a rest before getting into the jumps again, and vaguely disguised as choreo.

Otherwise the division of time between the elements back then was more or less the same as now - about 40-50% to the jumps and their approaches, 15-20% to spins and 20-30% to steps and chsq. Then 5-15% to things that are not directly related to the elements, usually the intro. This did not change a lot even when mid-2010s men started to jump 4-5 quads. When the 4 min free was introduced, the break vanished and the time used for other things dropped well below 10% = intro.

Now I am wondering whether that was more like a fashion in designing the programs - all the choreo was included in the transitions between elements. And this is because when I went through the top 6 frees from 2024 worlds, suddenly the break was back for some skaters. Lukas Britschgi, Adam, Yuma and Ilia all had 15-25 s of cheoreo somewhere in their programs that did not belong to the transitions between elements. For the others it was in the traditional place, but Ilia had in the end, between the two spins, like an addition chsq.

I have no idea how they're able to squeeze that much time out of everything else, but they manage somehow. This is particularly so with Ilia who has the most quads. Yuma is looking to add the 4th quad now seriously and that has slightly changed his timing - there is a break after the first spin, but a very short one before launching into the last quad. Otherwise his times looked pretty much the same as last year. I don't see him doing less choreo and musical interpretation than before but I do think the choreo is not great to that style and music, a bit bland, not sharp enough. The bit that excites me most is the fabulous change in pace and intensity with the music in the steps.

Adam did 2+4 regularly last season, but has not been able to do that because of the summer injury yet. But his Dune free is timed for doing 4 quads sometime down the line (I hope). And he has a 20+ long break when he literally lies down on the ice in a sequence that is directly telling the Dune story and very much choreo. He also has a longish full stop inside the step sequence. I am a little on the fence with the stationary bits.

For the most part, the choreo is built into the approaches to elements, there is no particular choreo time in them. Depending on the skater's skill and level of difficulty, they can do more detail and engage better with the music. One of my fave's, Aleksandr Selevko ditched his marvelous tango free and went back to last year's program. When I watched the old one in Helsinki, I immediately saw why - if you have problems with jumps, then having a simpler whole is better. And this is exactly what he said afterwards: the tango choreo had so much detail that he could not focus on the jumps the way he needs to do.

A skilled jumper can do more detail and still get the jumps done. Though not everyone is really capable of doing both even if the jumps come easy. This is why quite a few of the Russian quadsters are pretty boring to watch IMO - loads of jumps but little effort to fill in the gaps with anything remotely interesting. It is also possible that they're not interested in doing more choreo between the elements (Gumennik being one of the exceptions perhaps).

E

I trust my man Patrick Chan who said that 3 quads was really the limit to do anything interesting with choreo... and he himself, went back to 2. It's not just the time, it's the stamina. Compare the program of Ilia and Patrick and we can start talking... Who is the better jumper? Ilia... not true that it allows him better choreo here. The focus IS on the jumps and until they are done, there is nothing much in the program. I have seen Ilia's LP twice in person last year (ACI and WORLDS) and it was ||: skate skate skate jump :|| (that's a repeat sign for those who are not musicians) and once the jumps were all completed, THEN he lets loose... pretty boring IMHO.

So, sure, compare the guys to themselves and you may say, well he didn't remove that much choreo... but compare the guys to programs from 10-20 years ago, and you'll see what I am missing.

Here's a treat for skating fans. (and look how long he was done with his first move... he landed his 3a-2t-2l within seconds of the opening.. not 20-25 seconds... but 7-8

 

[lariko]

Simple Siberian dudeness of Aliev Love that! But he is by far the most expressive of the lot IMO although this year's free is annoying with the endless voiceover. It was fun to watch the Evgeni Onegins back to back in their first meeting! Savosin also surprised me last year since I remember him as the jumper from his junior days, not much to offer otherwise, and now he does really interesting stuff with conviction and commitment.

I guess people are going to hit the stands with the new competition formats since the old one did not really attract that many people...

E

I don't know what to expect. Nationals are in Omsk, which was off the Great Figure Skating Trek before, and Grishin said it is sold out. Very few had skated internationally and very few are new to the game, so to harken back to Aliev's unsophisticated Siberian upbringing, he said (on national TV) the peer-only competition of same-old, same-old doesn't turn him on (which maybe adds another dimension to why people watch the skating, I dunno). It might have been after that spur-of-the moment sharing that TV1 stopped asking the skaters candid questions right as they step of the ice, but don't quote me on this. How much of a turn-on the russification would prove for the masses outside Moscow and St.P, remains to be seen, but they very much appeal to regional sentiment and highlight the non-Moscow/Peterburg backgrounds and schools. So, less elite, all-Russian, your own home boys and girls, push. Let's see what it nets.

 

[Skating91]

Ploughed through this thread and it was fascinating to hear about the shift twards Russianness (so to say) in the Russian GP series. I think it has been coming since the skaters have been using more Russian language music, but I had not really paid attention to the scoreboard...

It's normal for Russian people to perform to Russian music, Japanese to Japanese music, Americans to American music.

There's a real bias towards music in English in figure skating, bias towards western pop music, and that's really unfair to skaters not from English speaking or western nations where English is relatively common.

Look at ice dance. Why should a skater from China or Korea (just an example you can pick any nation) be forced to skate to 1970's western European/American music. Doesn't this give English speaking and especially American skaters an enormous advantage since they can pick up on nuances that a Chinese skater would never understand for instance? It's so biased. No wonder British, Canadians, Americans dominate ice dancing the music chosen massively favours them. There's never a season where they skate to 1960's Japanese pop music. Why should the Japanese or any country's music be excluded?

However, I was wondering how have the audiences received this attitude and also the change in number of competitions? I have not watched all of them but was struck by how empty the stands were at Krasnoyarsk and even in the last comp at St Petersburg there were quite a lot of empty seats... So I checked and Moscow the same - lots of empty spaces. The Kazan rink looked tiny and that one also not so full. Magnitogorsk was fine, though. Also, it was interesting to note that pairs and dance were not included in all the comps.

I have really not paid that much attention to how full the stands have been in previous two seasons in Russia, but somehow it did surprise me to see the emptiness this year.

Compared to the ISU GP Series, not much difference in attendance IMO... I was at France which was packed esp. on the 2nd day and at Finlandia Trophy which was half full. Japan was packed, China looked fine, SKAM and SC also not so bad. At Finlandia, it was great to see that they had a lot of local sponsors and not just the (Japanese) ISU sponsors like in France.

They might also have some of the most skilled novice/junior ladies in the world, but the audiences are seemingly equally uninterested in attending the comps as in the rest of the world...

E

You have to keep in mind it is a domestic competition, and you're literally comparing it to the premier international competition. That a domestic competition can be compared to an international one speaks volumes. At the last stage in St Petersburg it looked almost full when the pairs came out. It's a 7 hour day, I assume people come and go from the arena so there will be empty seats at times.

 

[Mathman]

I wonder if we might be headed in the direction of national skating programs going their own way with less reliance on international competitions.

Russia is doing fine without the ISU, as the ISU is doing fine without Russia.

The Japanese ladies in the Grand Prix Final don't really need Amber Glenn to stage a successful event.

For countries with fewer top skaters, maybe we will start seeing partnerships, for example, Scandinavians on Ice.

Back in the day, National Championships were a big deal. Maybe we will come back to this as the world contracts more and more into nationalism.

 

[streams4dreams]

Russia is doing fine without the ISU, as the ISU is doing fine without Russia.

I actually find both to be less interesting, mainly because I really enjoy the storylines of who brings it out on the day of, so having a full field would mean more to me than the sum of its parts watched separately. Ditto for Amber Glenn competing in the GPF, I think it raises the excitement and potential for upset immensely!

 

[Arigato]

There's a real bias towards music in English in figure skating, bias towards western pop music, and that's really unfair to skaters not from English speaking or western nations where English is relatively common.

Look at ice dance. Why should a skater from China or Korea (just an example you can pick any nation) be forced to skate to 1970's western European/American music. Doesn't this give English speaking and especially American skaters an enormous advantage since they can pick up on nuances that a Chinese skater would never understand for instance? It's so biased. No wonder British, Canadians, Americans dominate ice dancing the music chosen massively favours them. There's never a season where they skate to 1960's Japanese pop music. Why should the Japanese or any country's music be excluded?

K-pop was built on the back of American Pop, Rock, R&B, Soul, and Jazz. Some of the most well-known artists in S. Korea all consume a daily diet of American music because they grew up listening to it. No "force" was necessary. One of the most well-known male singers in S. Korea grew up listening to Stevie Wonder and even calls his band "Wonderlust" as an homage to Stevie. One of the biggest artists in China has been a Michael Jackson junkie his entire life and incorporates a lot of Michael's dance moves into his own dance choreography. Ask a bunch of K-pop artists who they listen to and you will hear a large amount of American R&B mentioned. They know their music. American composers, arrangers, and producers work hand in hand with K-pop artists and have for more than a decade. So when you listen to K-pop, it's no coincidence it sounds like American music, especially R&B and Pop.

To even suggest that skaters from certain countries are being "forced" to skate to music from a particular country while never realizing there is a possibility they may actually enjoy the music they are skating to, doesn't help the sport. As I have already mentioned elsewhere in this forum, I don't traffic in conspiracy theories or the spread of disinformation. I certainly hope more people will speak up when reading unfounded claims designed to cast aspersions on a sport that so many of us have a passion for.

 

[Jontor]

I think it is ready to drop one event. The rift is obvious, the athletes are not transfering in sufficient numbers to fill out the ranks to create meaningful competition or a good show, so, imo, it's time to consolidate until seniors pick up.

No

 

[withwings]

No

Yes, Every sound minded would have said- NO.
Even the very existence of this thread, initiation of it seems to be...quite questionable, it looks rather like a subtle (and targeted) brain-washing attempt with the aim to get everyone on the board that without Russia world is dead and certainly going in wrong directions..

 

[lariko]

I would be interested in revisiting this after the Final.

Revisited. Suggest that they would do it, while keeping the challengers and making them more accessible to stream. Ice dance was the only discipline that is not suffering from the simple lack of athletes ready to move up a tier. A lot more need more challenger experience on senior level before they could move up to GP level. Yes, JGP is a hot bed where everything goes. On senior level, Challengers is its counterpart, not GP. Yes, it's fun to see development, but big, prestigious events have to remain the big events to maintain their specialness. When everyone gets to go, there is no longer an elite feel and no point. Every series needs to maintain its unique profile to be interesting to follow.

 

[Weathergal]

Revisited. Suggest that they would do it, while keeping the challengers and making them more accessible to stream. Ice dance was the only discipline that is not suffering from the simple lack of athletes ready to move up a tier. A lot more need more challenger experience on senior level before they could move up to GP level. Yes, JGP is a hot bed where everything goes. On senior level, Challengers is its counterpart, not GP. Yes, it's fun to see development, but big, prestigious events have to remain the big events to maintain their specialness. When everyone gets to go, there is no longer an elite feel and no point. Every series needs to maintain its unique profile to be interesting to follow.

With all due respect, you mean interesting to you.

Quite a few people here have stated otherwise and that -- even more than many skating fans disagree because they don't find the competitions lacking, are OK with peaks and valleys in competitions, or whatever their reasons are -- they believe it would be detrimental to skating to cut down the amount of competitions.

That being said, I think this was a great topic to bring up and I respect your opinion. I - and a lot of other posters here - just look at skating through a different lens.

 

[lariko]

With all due respect, you mean interesting to you.

Quite a few people here have stated otherwise and that -- even more than many skating fans disagree because they don't find the competitions lacking, are OK with peaks and valleys in competitions, or whatever their reasons are -- they believe it would be detrimental to skating to cut down the amount of competitions.

That being said, I think this was a great topic to bring up and I respect your opinion. I - and a lot of other posters here - just look at skating through a different lens.

I agreed on the point that it was worth waiting to see series to the end and see the GPF. My opinion still stands after that, and I documented it here. My opinion. My lens. Others are free to have theirs, my opinion doesn't impede their ability to think what they want, passing the test for freedom of expression. For me, this concludes this thread.