- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
I have been screaming about step sequence since they killed the second one.... What a tragic change rule
Last edited:
Is it OK that PCSs tend to track TES?
- Thread starter Mathman
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
To me, it is not so clear. Overall, up and dpwn the scale of competitions at various levels, I do not think that TES always, or even usually, outweighs PCS.
For the very tip of the top men, yes, the POTENTIAL for TES is higher than for PCS, nut the guy who plans 7 quads does not necessarily execute all his tech successfully. If he does, there is no holding him back no matter what, regardless of relative weights and caps.
Also, let's say we raise the PSC ceiling by ten percent. Suppose that under the current rules one skater gets 90 and the other 85. Now the numbers raise to 99 versus 93.5. We have not really addressed the question of spreading out the distinction between wonderful and very good, to any meaningful extent.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2023
I think clean TCS naturally lends to a smooth and musical performance. In that case it is a corollary and not a cause. Which is ok. I think the bigger question is about BV tracking with PCS, which does happen, and should not!!
I think poor TCS should almost never reflect on PCS unless it is egregious. For example a huge fall destroying your timing and forcing a rushed or skipped choreo section. So again a corollary yet not a cause.
I have found that the latter is more common. Poor TCS causing poor PCS. I mean though, undeservedly. Not as a corollary but as a cause. Tracking with BV. Its actually extremely upsetting. Often the skate is clean yet because the levels were imperfect or jumps were unimpressive, the PCS is lowered, and severely. However PCS does not speak about jumps or levels. It speaks of flow, edges, musicality, etc... which are often exemplary yet still unrewarded. This is really sad. I find often a skater will engage me emotionally as a master artist would. Yet they get annihilated in PCS anyways because they are unknown or have mediocre tech. I wish they would get their flowers for what they do bring, even if it isn't the entire package required for podium scoring. Or else it is a real disgrace. The skater came and did what they know, and wonderfully so, yet they do not even get rewarded for that in spite of a fair reduction in another category. It must be devastating that they put so much work and emotion into something and remain unrecognized.
However, I do find often that high TCS skaters get low PCS anyways. It doesnt seem to track that way as much.
I am speaking mostly from experience in Russian tournament though, as most know.
I think poor TCS should almost never reflect on PCS unless it is egregious. For example a huge fall destroying your timing and forcing a rushed or skipped choreo section. So again a corollary yet not a cause.
I have found that the latter is more common. Poor TCS causing poor PCS. I mean though, undeservedly. Not as a corollary but as a cause. Tracking with BV. Its actually extremely upsetting. Often the skate is clean yet because the levels were imperfect or jumps were unimpressive, the PCS is lowered, and severely. However PCS does not speak about jumps or levels. It speaks of flow, edges, musicality, etc... which are often exemplary yet still unrewarded. This is really sad. I find often a skater will engage me emotionally as a master artist would. Yet they get annihilated in PCS anyways because they are unknown or have mediocre tech. I wish they would get their flowers for what they do bring, even if it isn't the entire package required for podium scoring. Or else it is a real disgrace. The skater came and did what they know, and wonderfully so, yet they do not even get rewarded for that in spite of a fair reduction in another category. It must be devastating that they put so much work and emotion into something and remain unrecognized.
However, I do find often that high TCS skaters get low PCS anyways. It doesnt seem to track that way as much.
I am speaking mostly from experience in Russian tournament though, as most know.
What do you mean by TCS?
Technical Element Score (TES, which is equal to base value plus/minus GOE)?
or Total Segment Score? (TES plus PCS?)
Or do you mean clean and smooth execution of the technical elements? Which is likely to lead to higher GOEs, but not necessarily to higher TES if the base value is lower.
And of course, what looks "clean" and smooth to a casual viewer might not look clean to the judges, e.g., jumps with wrong edge takeoffs might look great to a casual viewer who doesn't know the difference between edges or jumps.
Those kinds of errors would have a negative effect on the GOEs, but as you note, they shouldn't really have much effect on the program components. Possibly slightly on Skating Skills.
Technical Element Score (TES, which is equal to base value plus/minus GOE)?
or Total Segment Score? (TES plus PCS?)
Or do you mean clean and smooth execution of the technical elements? Which is likely to lead to higher GOEs, but not necessarily to higher TES if the base value is lower.
And of course, what looks "clean" and smooth to a casual viewer might not look clean to the judges, e.g., jumps with wrong edge takeoffs might look great to a casual viewer who doesn't know the difference between edges or jumps.
Those kinds of errors would have a negative effect on the GOEs, but as you note, they shouldn't really have much effect on the program components. Possibly slightly on Skating Skills.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
On the positive side, I would think that an arsenal of big jumps might give the performer something to work with in terms of choreography and presentation. Plus, the role of highlight elements that have no base value. like non-rotational jumps, to me somewhat muddies the distinction between tech and components.
My favorite musical is Chorus Line and my favorite song from Chorus Line is "I can do that." It choreographs itself -- whatever the dancer can do, that's the choreography. It is also the theme and the story line. I had no problem with Alina Zagitova getting high component marks for (the second half) of her Olympic Don Quixote program --"Hang on to your hats, folks: I can do this, I can do this I can do this... and I can do THAT!"
Ditto Ilia Malinin's 2023 worlds LP, or Nathan Chen.s greatest hits. (Of course, of you can duo all this while also melting the cockles of my wee little heart, well -- then you would be Yuzuru Hanyu.)
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
I think it depends on how egregious the screw-up is in the technical element. If a jump is slightly underrotated then it doesn't do much to disrupt the program but if the skater falls on their butt - whether on a quad or a spin or even a 3-turn - then it disrupts the presentation.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
And of course no one is Yuzuru Hanyu.... except Yuzuru Hanyu
There are very few skaters who are superlative at everything, even the most elite always seem to favour one side or the other (tech whizzery, skating skills, artistry). That's why decidedly anti-superlative me keeps reminding myself just how many skills and strengths go into elite skating and even the less allround do have to shine at an unholy number of things because our sport is so demanding. And I guess because "no one is Yuzuru Hanyu", the ISU seem to spend an equally unholy time seesawing and politicking between which aspects they want to give more weight to.
Last edited:
