Is there any argument for having certain countries send more than 3...?

[chuckm]

Golfing is not skating. Golfing is a sport where a golfer can have a 40-year career, because it does not have the same physical risks that skating does. Even tennis players continue to play (if only at doubles) well into their 40s.

Figure skating, like gymnastics, is a young person's sport. There aren't nearly as many opportunities to skate professionally as there are to play tennis or golf professionally, and a good professional golfer or tennis player can make millions playing golf for years and years, and can make lots of money on the side through endorsements and commercials.

Only the very, very top figure skaters like Kwan and Cohen get the big money endorsements and contracts. Most eligible skaters and their families have a hard time supporting their skating expenses. The top eligible skaters have some opportunities to make money on sanctioned tours off-season, but the rest struggle to make ends meet.

In short: don't compare PROFESSIONAL golf and tennis (where most of the players are over 21) to eligible figure skating, where the average age is 17 or 18. It is not a valid comparison.

 

[bekalc]

The same should go for skating only events. Imagine an American or European golfer getting bumped from the PGA to make way for the Russian champion golfer. I'm not saying Russia will neve have a PGA champion. They just don't have anyone of PGA caliber as of 2007. The same format should go for skating.

Again the Olympics are different. I'm speaking of skating only events.

But figure skating stars are a lot younger than PGA stars or tennis stars. Plus, there is a lot more money in both those sports... Besides, there isn't such thing as a world championship in tennis or golf, there are just four major tournments. So there's no concept at all of competiting for your country. There is in figure skating.

Figure skating is really expensive too, and so many skaters need help from their federations.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think one has to ask the question: What is the Point of a Competition?
I believe the point is to find the best in that particular competition.

Another question: How important is it that every country should be represented? I believe the Personal Bests of skaters should play a factor in selecting the entries and not the nationality per se.

There are many talented skaters who will never get to a Worlds championship while others will simply get there because of their nationalities and not their talent. Unfortunagely, the politics rule, imo.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

I think one has to ask the question: What is the Point of a Competition?
I believe the point is to find the best in that particular competition.

Another question: How important is it that every country should be represented? I believe the Personal Bests of skaters should play a factor in selecting the entries and not the nationality per se.

There are many talented skaters who will never get to a Worlds championship while others will simply get there because of their nationalities and not their talent. Unfortunagely, the politics rule, imo.

Joe

If the competition is called WORLD figure skating championship, then it should feature skaters from all the countries in the world. Just because some countries have better skaters than others doesn't mean the lesser-ability countries should be excluded. Figure skating is a very expensive sport, and skaters need the support of their federations. Some federations are from poorer countries that do not have the means to support a large group of skaters. The countries who do happen to have the best skaters also happen to be among the wealthier countries, who can afford to send their skaters to top coaches. They SHOULD have better skaters.

The suggestion that the poorer countries should be excluded so that the richer countries can send more skaters is elitist and IMO, obscene.

 

[bekalc]

Exactly. There is no world championship in golf or tennis..

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If the competition is called WORLD figure skating championship, then it should feature skaters from all the countries in the world. Just because some countries have better skaters than others doesn't mean the lesser-ability countries should be excluded. Figure skating is a very expensive sport, and skaters need the support of their federations. Some federations are from poorer countries that do not have the means to support a large group of skaters. The countries who do happen to have the best skaters also happen to be among the wealthier countries, who can afford to send their skaters to top coaches. They SHOULD have better skaters.

The suggestion that the poorer countries should be excluded so that the richer countries can send more skaters is elitist and IMO, obscene.

Not objecting to anything you say, and no one is saying that poor countries should be excluded. Even in the wealthiest of countries, not all the children can afford to even buy skates. So the matter is the family must be able to afford their child's progress. That's who is being excluded - not countries.

But my argument stands on what is the purpose of a Championship? If you think of the logistics involved, it would be best to have those with the highest PBs entered into the race and allow each country to have at least 1.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

Have you LOOKED at the PB lists from last season?

Nearly all the age-eligible Senior skaters and teams in the top 10 on the list were at Worlds, and most of those in the top 20 were there as well.

Some of those who were high on the PB list were there because of ONE performance, and were otherwise not outstanding skaters. For example, Aki Sawada's 4CC score was #16 on the list, but her GP performances would have ranked her below #25. Kozuka's performance at NHK was good enough to place him at #9, but his TEB score would have placed him at #39.

Sorry, but National championships weed out the best of the best. As it turned out, both Sawada and Kozuka finished 6th at Japanese Nationals, so they weren't even in the almost-made-it category.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Sorry, but National championships weed out the best of the best. As it turned out, both Sawada and Kozuka finished 6th at Japanese Nationals, so they weren't even in the almost-made-it category.

Although I do not know their backgrounds, I can easily believe their families can afford their financil skating needs.

It seems your argument for poorer countries and mine for poorer families really don't matter when the best of skaters come from well-to-do families in the wealthier nations.

But why make 3 the limit beside it being traditional? Why not just 1 from each country?

I'm not making a huge issue of this. I just want to touch all the bases. And I am a firm believer in the Sport being for the children of the well-to-do familes regardless of countries.



Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

IMO, Mai gets her GP assignments because she is riding on her sister's coattails.

In order to qualify for an assignment outside of an appointment to NHK -- which she didn't get -- Mai Asada had to meet certain criteria; this year, she needed one of the top 75 best scores from last year. She accomplished that. She was chosen for one event. Every other Ladies' skater who was skating seniors this year who met the criteria and was on their Federations' eligible list received at least one invitation; she didn't take a space away from anyone.

She's #29 in the Ladies' World Standings, one place ahead of Arina Martinova. In 2005, her last junior season, she qualified for the Jr. Grand Prix Final and finished 5th. In her first senior season, she was 6th at Four Continents. Last year, she had two 6th place finishes in GP events.

I don't see how this is riding her sister's coattails.

 

[alicelouise]

3 per

Exactly. There is no world championship in golf or tennis..

For Golf the unofficial Worlds are the Masters and Tennis it is Wimbledon. Anyone who is someone in these sports will attend barring injury.

 

[chuckm]

In both golf and tennis, some of the players at these prestige events rank very low on the totem pole and get cut in the early stages of play (just like FS, folks).

 

[Mathman]

I am very curious about what Ottavio Cinquanta’s opinion might be on this issue. (Maybe Mr. C. is a member of this board under a different screen name! )

To me, the fundamental issue is not whether the right number is three or some other number. It is whether the World Championship should be about the National Federations or about the individual skaters.

Under the present rules, it’s about the National Federations. The National Federation qualifies to send 1, 2 or 3 representatives. The skater who wins these spots by doing well in last years worlds has won a spot for the Federation to fill at its pleasure, not a spot for him/herself at next year’s worlds.

One of the biggest (but relatively unheralded) changes in passing from the old judging system to the new is that a substantial amount of power was transferred from the judges (who work for the national federations) to the technical specialist (who works for Cinquanta). I have always felt that Cinquanta’s master plan was to concentrate more and more power in the hands of the ISU hierarchy, and to diminish the power of the federations accordingly.

I would think that Cinquanta would be all in favor of a plan where skaters competed as individuals (under the yoke of the ISU, of course), instead of as representatives of member nations.

 

[Mathman]

And I am a firm believer in the Sport being for the children of the well-to-do familes regardless of countries.

Lots of top skaters do not come from well-to-families. Michelle Kwan's family was not rich, but they were willing to make great fanancial sacrifice for the sake of their daughter's career.

Evgeny Plushenko' family was not well off by any means, but he was able to develop his talent because of support from the State sports apparatus.

Many paths, one goal. I do not see any virtue in reserving a sport for the wealthy. Quite the contrary.

 

[chuckm]

One of the biggest (but relatively unheralded) changes in passing from the old judging system to the new is that a substantial amount of power was transferred from the judges (who work for the national federations) to the technical specialist (who works for Cinquanta). I have always felt that Cinquanta’s master plan was to concentrate more and more power in the hands of the ISU hierarchy, and to diminish the power of the federations accordingly.

I would think that Cinquanta would be all in favor of a plan where skaters competed as individuals (under the yoke of the ISU, of course), instead of as representatives of member nations.

Cinquanta might be in favor of it, but any change of that nature would have to be put before the ISU Congress----which is made up of representatives from the member nations. I doubt very much that the federations would vote to put themselves out of business.

Then there is the problem of the ISU being recognized as the governing organization for figure skating by the IOC. If the ISU went to controlling individual skaters, then that would not fit under the IOC structure. The ISU would not be able to send individual skaters to the Olympics, since the countries from which they came would have no say as to their fitness to represent their countries.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Lots of top skaters do not come from well-to-families. Michelle Kwan's family was not rich, but they were willing to make great fanancial sacrifice for the sake of their daughter's career.

There is a difference between well-to-do families or middle class familes as against poor families. I've lived among poor families and there is no way those kids are going to skate without big financial help. Kwan's family were already established as middle class Americans and I believe in a family business. I am not certain how much sacrifice they had to endure to put the two sisters into skating classes. At their level of income, I do not see any hardship to support their children's after school 'fun'. Not so for all children.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Under the present rules, it’s about the National Federations. The National Federation qualifies to send 1, 2 or 3 representatives. The skater who wins these spots by doing well in last years worlds has won a spot for the Federation to fill at its pleasure, not a spot for him/herself at next year’s worlds.

One of the biggest (but relatively unheralded) changes in passing from the old judging system to the new is that a substantial amount of power was transferred from the judges (who work for the national federations) to the technical specialist (who works for Cinquanta). I have always felt that Cinquanta’s master plan was to concentrate more and more power in the hands of the ISU hierarchy, and to diminish the power of the federations accordingly.

It's always nice when a skater from one's own country wins a medal but I still believe that the 'best man' from wherever should win. I think in the earliest days of the sport, much organization was needed to keep it viable. But the sport has grown since the early days. Maybe it is time to really overhaul the entire scope of the sport. (I would not be against that, although those countries which insist on being the best in the World, will fight it.)

Figure Skating to me was all about Sonia Henie not about Norway. I believe the glory belongs to the individual - not the country the individual comes from. What the sport needs is to clean up its act. Let the public in on what's going on. No secret anything. The decisions of each of the infallible trio of Tech Specialists should be made public as it is in Prize Fighting. Instant Replay should be made public after the completion of the competition. Planned Programs could be issued to the public before the competition

The Federations should be most useful as a guide to the Rules and Regulations of the Competitions.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

There is a difference between well-to-do families or middle class familes as against poor families. I've lived among poor families and there is no way those kids are going to skate without big financial help. Kwan's family were already established as middle class Americans and I believe in a family business. I am not certain how much sacrifice they had to endure to put the two sisters into skating classes. At their level of income, I do not see any hardship to support their children's after school 'fun'. Not so for all children.

Joe

Kwan's father did not own the restaurant, another family member did--Mr. Kwan was a system engineer with the phone company. Having had a job like that at one time in the past, I can tell you it doesn't pay anywhere near enough to support two kids in eligible skating. They had to sell their house and move in with other family members.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Kwan's father did not own the restaurant, another family member did--Mr. Kwan was a system engineer with the phone company. Having had a job like that at one time in the past, I can tell you it doesn't pay anywhere near enough to support two kids in eligible skating. They had to sell their house and move in with other family members.

You can't really believe that under priviledge kids with dreams of becoming World Champions should rely on the sparse income of their parents who probably could not afford to buy the skates.

 

[GoldMedalist]

If "talent rich" countries, such as US and Japan (in the singles events) get to send unlimited skaters to Worlds, how will a skater such as Yu-Na Kim -- the first from a specific country -- ever "break" into the big time?

This makes no sense.

She would "break in" the same way she already has -- by being good.

Another country sending more skaters to Worlds, skaters who deserve to be there, does not affect the ability of another individual skater.

Grand Prix events should be more open, allowing every country at least one slot, and the best skaters in the World should be the ones that compete at the World Championships. This gives "less rich" countries MORE experience, not less, because their top skater gets to skate both their SP and LP at a Grand Prix event rather than maybe just their SP at Worlds.