To me, Worlds is about the best from each country. So what if a countries best isnt as good as another countries 5th best? They are still the best of their own federation, and so, in my opinion, the current structure is decent. However, I would like toi see the whole 1-4 extra spots in a "wildcard" showdown, with just the next two from the national championships competing.
Is there any argument for having certain countries send more than 3...?
- Thread starter Jasper
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For the Olympics, there is a runoff competition for spots in the Olympic games. I believe it was Karl Schafer for 2006. After the spots were assigned based on how the federations finished at 2005 Worlds (and not all spots are filled because some federations don't have the skaters to fill multiple spots), there are additional spots open up to 30 for singles, 20 for Pairs and 24 for Dance.
As a result of placements at Karl Schafer, these skaters/teams earned spots at the 2006 Olympics: Tomas Verner (CZE), Anton Kovalevski (UKR), Viktor Pfeifer (AUT), Zoltan Toth (HUN), Trifun Zivanovic (SCG), Vakhtang Murvanidze (GEO). Gregor Urbas (SLO) and Jong-In Han (PRK); Elene Gedevanishvili (GEO), Yan Liu (CHN), Tugba Karademir (TUR), Fleur Maxwell (LUX), Roxana Luca (ROM), Yong-Suk Kim (PRK), Elena Glebova (EST), and Anastasia Gimazetdinova (UZB); Pla/Bonheur (FRA), Aganina/Knyazev (UZB), Rennik/Saks (EST), Spassova/Todorov (BUL); Drobiazko/Vanagas (LTU), Watanabe/Kido (JPN), Hoffmann/Elek (HUN), Fraser/Lukanin (AZE), Grebenkina/Azroyan (ARM), and Kauc/Zych (POL).
As a result of placements at Karl Schafer, these skaters/teams earned spots at the 2006 Olympics: Tomas Verner (CZE), Anton Kovalevski (UKR), Viktor Pfeifer (AUT), Zoltan Toth (HUN), Trifun Zivanovic (SCG), Vakhtang Murvanidze (GEO). Gregor Urbas (SLO) and Jong-In Han (PRK); Elene Gedevanishvili (GEO), Yan Liu (CHN), Tugba Karademir (TUR), Fleur Maxwell (LUX), Roxana Luca (ROM), Yong-Suk Kim (PRK), Elena Glebova (EST), and Anastasia Gimazetdinova (UZB); Pla/Bonheur (FRA), Aganina/Knyazev (UZB), Rennik/Saks (EST), Spassova/Todorov (BUL); Drobiazko/Vanagas (LTU), Watanabe/Kido (JPN), Hoffmann/Elek (HUN), Fraser/Lukanin (AZE), Grebenkina/Azroyan (ARM), and Kauc/Zych (POL).
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- Jul 28, 2003
3 per country
Why not take a page from the world of tennis? In the big four tournaments, the Australian, French, Wimbledon, US Open, the best 16 of entrants are automatically seeded, regardless of country. There are an additional 16 that don't have to qualify. The rest have to qualify in various qualifying events. Why not do the same in Figure Skating? In the 1960s the Australian men, in tennis, was dominant. The final eight (quarterfinals) were nearly all Australian. If the Figure Skating rule was applied at that time many fine tennis players would have been unable to compete outside of Australia; simply because they were ranked 4th or 5th in their country.
In skating this would translate to 10 skaters/teams in each discipline. The rest having to qualify. This would apply to skating events. The tennis-like format would allow the best skaters to compete. The qualifying events would allow the opportunity for other competitors.
In the Olympics the Tennis event allows 2 singles for Men and Women and 1 Doubles team per country.
Why not take a page from the world of tennis? In the big four tournaments, the Australian, French, Wimbledon, US Open, the best 16 of entrants are automatically seeded, regardless of country. There are an additional 16 that don't have to qualify. The rest have to qualify in various qualifying events. Why not do the same in Figure Skating? In the 1960s the Australian men, in tennis, was dominant. The final eight (quarterfinals) were nearly all Australian. If the Figure Skating rule was applied at that time many fine tennis players would have been unable to compete outside of Australia; simply because they were ranked 4th or 5th in their country.
In skating this would translate to 10 skaters/teams in each discipline. The rest having to qualify. This would apply to skating events. The tennis-like format would allow the best skaters to compete. The qualifying events would allow the opportunity for other competitors.
In the Olympics the Tennis event allows 2 singles for Men and Women and 1 Doubles team per country.
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- Jul 28, 2003
3 Best continued
In Tennis there are/were numerous players that were One Man Shows. That is they were the only players that were World Class at that time in their countries. Examples are Ilie Nastase, Monica Seles and the present day Roger Federer. It would be unfair to give a place to the second ranked player in Switzerland in place of a player in the top 20 simply because the latter player might be 4th best in that country.
I'm only saying let the athletes qualify on their own merits for skating only events.
In Tennis there are/were numerous players that were One Man Shows. That is they were the only players that were World Class at that time in their countries. Examples are Ilie Nastase, Monica Seles and the present day Roger Federer. It would be unfair to give a place to the second ranked player in Switzerland in place of a player in the top 20 simply because the latter player might be 4th best in that country.
I'm only saying let the athletes qualify on their own merits for skating only events.
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- Jul 28, 2003
That's close to my thinking. I would say top 6 ranked skaters get to go to Worlds automatically. They do not count toward the 1, 2, or 3 people their country can send.
That also depends on country. That would benefit talented US/Japanese skaters who just missed podium at nationals like Bebe or Suguri last year. But let's say Kim automatically earning spot for the world. Since she earned two spots for her country at last worlds, two mediocre skaters who would not even get to skate their free programs will be sent.
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- Nov 2, 2005
So nationality is more important than skill and talent. You think it is boring to watch a lot of skaters do nice and highly technical programs because they were born in the same country.Worlds should be the best in the world no matter what his or her nationality is. Not a best from every country.I think the argument is about catering to skaters and getting away from tyranic federations. The current rule is like a primitive version of affirmative action.
I say put as many skaters you can from all federations in the Grand Prix Series. A skater at least getting in one event. Take an average of skaters' international compition scores for the current season.Top 24 skaters qualify for worlds. There should be12 wild card positions available for developing federations with promising talent. Who should decides which federations get these wild cards? I don't know? Maybe speedy can form up some kind of committee.
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The ISU is a union of SKATING FEDERATIONS, not an organization of skaters. It does not deal directly with skaters, only with the federations to which the skaters belong. The ISU publishes regulations, and its up to each federation to follow the regulations as far as eligibility and skating ability are concerned, and to institute new guidelines that coincide with the ISU guidelines.
The ISU is not equipped legally to manage individual skaters, and it could not if it wanted to maintain its authority over figure skating with the IOC (International Olympic Committee). The Olympics is organized by country, and the ISU must follow suit.
There is a reason why the skaters ranked below 3rd don't go to Worlds, and it is that there are better skaters in their country. What good would it be for Fumie Suguri, Rumi Suizu, Mai Asada, BeBe Liang, Danielle Kahle, or Juliana Cannarozzo to go to Worlds? Rumi Suizu couldn't get to the JGPF this year. Danielle Kahle finished way down at a "B" International. Juliana Cannarozzo finished out of the medals at both her JGP events. Fumie Suguri skated badly at the US-Japan cheesefest, and Mai Asada bombed at Skate America. BeBe Liang has been going to the GP year after year without winning a single medal.
Alissa Czisny got to go to Worlds last year and she finished a whopping 15th. That's about what you could expect for 6 "wild cards" from Japan or the USA. Only Fumie Suguri would be likely to place in the top 10, and more likely the bottom half.
All these skaters would be doing would be to push skaters from the smaller federations down into the "Final not Reached" category, and they would never get a chance to compete in the GP.
The system is fair as it is. Packing Worlds with second-tier skaters may be exciting for THOSE skaters, but it would be detrimental to other skaters and their federations. IMO, it is a very selfish idea.
The ISU is not equipped legally to manage individual skaters, and it could not if it wanted to maintain its authority over figure skating with the IOC (International Olympic Committee). The Olympics is organized by country, and the ISU must follow suit.
There is a reason why the skaters ranked below 3rd don't go to Worlds, and it is that there are better skaters in their country. What good would it be for Fumie Suguri, Rumi Suizu, Mai Asada, BeBe Liang, Danielle Kahle, or Juliana Cannarozzo to go to Worlds? Rumi Suizu couldn't get to the JGPF this year. Danielle Kahle finished way down at a "B" International. Juliana Cannarozzo finished out of the medals at both her JGP events. Fumie Suguri skated badly at the US-Japan cheesefest, and Mai Asada bombed at Skate America. BeBe Liang has been going to the GP year after year without winning a single medal.
Alissa Czisny got to go to Worlds last year and she finished a whopping 15th. That's about what you could expect for 6 "wild cards" from Japan or the USA. Only Fumie Suguri would be likely to place in the top 10, and more likely the bottom half.
All these skaters would be doing would be to push skaters from the smaller federations down into the "Final not Reached" category, and they would never get a chance to compete in the GP.
The system is fair as it is. Packing Worlds with second-tier skaters may be exciting for THOSE skaters, but it would be detrimental to other skaters and their federations. IMO, it is a very selfish idea.
3 years ago, foreseeing a logjam in Ladies singles in JPN, I asked this same question in another forum.
One has to recognize that highest scoring elements are now so risky that the potential winner of Olympics or Worlds could be left off the national team.
Just think, last two Olympics Gold medalist in Ladies were only BRONZE medalist at respective nationals immediately preceding Olympics. Another mistake and they may not have been competing!
Two most recent World Champions in Ladies did NOT win their respective Nationals prior to the Worlds.
Top ten in the World Rankings must be allowed to compete in Worlds and Olympics, whatever the Nationality, for the sake of fairness and legitimacy, IMHO.
One has to recognize that highest scoring elements are now so risky that the potential winner of Olympics or Worlds could be left off the national team.
Just think, last two Olympics Gold medalist in Ladies were only BRONZE medalist at respective nationals immediately preceding Olympics. Another mistake and they may not have been competing!
Two most recent World Champions in Ladies did NOT win their respective Nationals prior to the Worlds.
Top ten in the World Rankings must be allowed to compete in Worlds and Olympics, whatever the Nationality, for the sake of fairness and legitimacy, IMHO.
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- Nov 2, 2005
I think the current rules actually depriciate the value of worlds. In any sport the importance and value of an event is based on the difficulty and level of compitition at the event. The rules actually decrease the potential level of compition.
One can logically argue that Worlds is not truelly a Championship event at all. Qualifications are not based on merits alone. They are based on location, nationality, and last years outcome. Sounds like Mrs. America doesn't it
One could also argue that nationals and Europeans is a lot more important than worlds. And the Grand Prix is worthless except as a practice run for your programs.
If they really want to improve the popularity figure skater over all. There going to need to be some big changes. Depriciating the value of your events don't increase fans or encorage fans to care more about the events.
I believe Federations would do more to improve the quality of their skaters if they knew they wasn't garunteed a spot at worlds.
What does it means to qualify for worlds? I definitly doesn't mean your one of the top 40 skaters in the world. It just means you got lucky at nationals were the judging is not as secure as the judging at international events such as the Grand Prix which play no role in World Championships except for maybe skate order which shouldn't matter in fair judging anyway.
One can logically argue that Worlds is not truelly a Championship event at all. Qualifications are not based on merits alone. They are based on location, nationality, and last years outcome. Sounds like Mrs. America doesn't it
One could also argue that nationals and Europeans is a lot more important than worlds. And the Grand Prix is worthless except as a practice run for your programs.
If they really want to improve the popularity figure skater over all. There going to need to be some big changes. Depriciating the value of your events don't increase fans or encorage fans to care more about the events.
I believe Federations would do more to improve the quality of their skaters if they knew they wasn't garunteed a spot at worlds.
What does it means to qualify for worlds? I definitly doesn't mean your one of the top 40 skaters in the world. It just means you got lucky at nationals were the judging is not as secure as the judging at international events such as the Grand Prix which play no role in World Championships except for maybe skate order which shouldn't matter in fair judging anyway.
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Worlds is what it says: WORLD figure skating competition, not "Best Figure Skater" competition. All countries who are members of the ISU have the right to enter at least one skater/team at Worlds. The ISU members who have more accomplished skaters are allowed to enter as many as three, and that is fine, too.
I think it is just plain selfish for the wealthier federations to say: "I have even MORE accomplished skaters, so I want 5 or 6 places at Worlds", and incredible chutzpah to say "Federations would do more to improve the quality of their skaters if they knew they wasn't garunteed a spot at worlds".
The smaller federations do not have the money to build more rinks in their countries. They do not have the money to send their skaters to the US and Canada to train with top coaches, as the Japanese federation does. Their skaters train as best they can, and their best hope for developing their skaters is to enter them in JGP and GP events. Unfortunately, most of the small countries are way underrepresented in the GP, and that is likely to remain the case.
Leave the World Figure Skating Championship alone. It represents the best skater(s) from each of the ISU members.
I might suggest that the wealthier federations who feel they are shortchanged by not having all their top skaters at Worlds organize a new international structure and initiate a "Best Figure Skating Championship". Then they can pack the competition with as many of their skaters as they wish, and invite only the outside skaters they feel are worthy (of course, such an organization would not be able to send its skaters to the Olympics, and those federations and their skaters and other skaters who did participate would likely be banned from the ISU, but what the heck!).
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I think it is just plain selfish for the wealthier federations to say: "I have even MORE accomplished skaters, so I want 5 or 6 places at Worlds", and incredible chutzpah to say "Federations would do more to improve the quality of their skaters if they knew they wasn't garunteed a spot at worlds".
The smaller federations do not have the money to build more rinks in their countries. They do not have the money to send their skaters to the US and Canada to train with top coaches, as the Japanese federation does. Their skaters train as best they can, and their best hope for developing their skaters is to enter them in JGP and GP events. Unfortunately, most of the small countries are way underrepresented in the GP, and that is likely to remain the case.
Leave the World Figure Skating Championship alone. It represents the best skater(s) from each of the ISU members.
I might suggest that the wealthier federations who feel they are shortchanged by not having all their top skaters at Worlds organize a new international structure and initiate a "Best Figure Skating Championship". Then they can pack the competition with as many of their skaters as they wish, and invite only the outside skaters they feel are worthy (of course, such an organization would not be able to send its skaters to the Olympics, and those federations and their skaters and other skaters who did participate would likely be banned from the ISU, but what the heck!).
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- Aug 7, 2003
Ah, but it doesn't say World figure skating competition, it says World Figure Skating CHAMPIONSHIP. There is a good arguement that a Championship should only feature champion caliber skaters. I guess it depends on what word you find more important.
Honestly I dont' have an opinion one way or the other, I just like to pay devil's advocate sometimes.
Well, I want to point out that many think the who wins the Super bowl will be decided by the Patriots/Colts game in AFC championship.
In basketball, the NBA championship was most certainly decided between the Spurs in the Suns (In the conference semifinals) No less!
So it happens all the time that sometime in qualifying for championships better teams/better people don't make the finals due to a tougher qualification round.
The point is that the best in each country do end up going against each other at worlds. And one could argue that if your not the third best in your country, your really not the third best in the world. I mean does anyone really think that Suguri would have medaled at this years worlds? Really and truly?
Besides, one could argue by having the limit and having to compete to just make the world/Olympics, it makes skaters from Japan and America better.
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- Nov 2, 2005
I think the limit is great for the Olympics. The Olympics were created for countrys to go at each and see who can grab the most medals. I believe Worlds Championship should focus on the individual. If Worlds is just an yearly Olympic compittion why not just have all federations only send one skater per discipline. Than it is truelly the best from every federation represented equally at Worlds. Does a federation really need an opportunity to win all three medals. One medal should be enough.
The skaters who go to Worlds ARE champions, in their own country. Just because they don't match up to #6 in Japan or the US doesn't make them less of a champion at home.
Bekalc is right. The US and Japanese skaters are better because of the competition at home. So those countries send their BEST skaters to Worlds, just as the other countries do. #s 4-6 in Japan and the US didn't make it to the top 3, so they don't get to go. Better luck next year.
Maybe the lesser Ladies skaters should go skate for Canada. They don't have to be citizens to do that (except for at the Olympics), and Canada could sure use them!
Bekalc is right. The US and Japanese skaters are better because of the competition at home. So those countries send their BEST skaters to Worlds, just as the other countries do. #s 4-6 in Japan and the US didn't make it to the top 3, so they don't get to go. Better luck next year.
Maybe the lesser Ladies skaters should go skate for Canada. They don't have to be citizens to do that (except for at the Olympics), and Canada could sure use them!
Oh, I hate the idea. Let three girls go, that's only fair..Why should let's say Ando or Mao miss the Olympics because they have to compete against each other. Besides, worlds is the way most countries earn their Olympic spots anyways.
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- Nov 2, 2005
I do to. I was just being sarcastic. I really appreciated what the ATP and WTA does for tennis. They allow players an equal chance to represent themselves in Major Championships. The players can also represent their federation in the Fed Cup events. The players are still eligable for the Olympics.
I believe the previous quidelines were great for the 6.0 system, but the guidelines are now outdated thanks to the introduction of CoP. I think they should be revise to take full advantage of the benifits of CoP. If ISU really want to make figure skating popular, they need to make it more than just an Olympic sport.
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- Jul 28, 2003
3 per
The same should go for skating only events. Imagine an American or European golfer getting bumped from the PGA to make way for the Russian champion golfer. I'm not saying Russia will neve have a PGA champion. They just don't have anyone of PGA caliber as of 2007. The same format should go for skating.
Again the Olympics are different. I'm speaking of skating only events.
I do to. I was just being sarcastic. I really appreciated what the ATP and WTA does for tennis. They allow players an equal chance to represent themselves in Major Championships. The players can also represent their federation in the Fed Cup events. The players are still eligable for the Olympics.
I believe the previous quidelines were great for the 6.0 system, but the guidelines are now outdated thanks to the introduction of CoP. I think they should be revise to take full advantage of the benifits of CoP. If ISU really want to make figure skating popular, they need to make it more than just an Olympic sport.
The same should go for skating only events. Imagine an American or European golfer getting bumped from the PGA to make way for the Russian champion golfer. I'm not saying Russia will neve have a PGA champion. They just don't have anyone of PGA caliber as of 2007. The same format should go for skating.
Again the Olympics are different. I'm speaking of skating only events.
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