ISU Figure skating Awards

[Mathematician]

Ari Z. thinks that promoting the heck out of Ilia and his jumps will attract younger people

Doubt it, I've seen people try this exact thing on youtube shorts/tiktok and people dont care at all. At least not enough to actually watch the sport; they just get some moderate amusement for a few seconds seeing his jump, give a like or comment if you're lucky then keep scrolling.

 

[Magill]

About Ilia Malinin, I wonder if the ISU 's biggest concern is attracting new and ever-younger fans to the sport. An old hand like Jason Brown, not to mention retired all-time greats, already have their admirers.

But is Ilia really the right guy for the job? I don't know his fans age stats but having a quick look at the social media my feeling is his following is mainly Nathan's fans orphaned after he had withdrawn from competing and a sizeable lot of Russians, both in Russia and immigrants, who adopted him due to his background while their own skaters are banned from ISU comps. Whatever their age, none of them are really new to the sport.
Skaters are mostly young so this is not a factor that would make him outstand in any way (seems worries are that they are actually too young and their careers are too short ). Still it does not seem to attract awful lot of young fans to the sport in countries where skating is not popular as such to start with. In my experience, not big but still, most of really young people I know who follow the sport are those who actually do or did practice it as a hobby. Making skating more accessible and cheaper would be probably better way to attract new fans than fiddling with awards and scores for the sake of this elusive and imaginary "appeal".
OTOH, Yuzuru managed to be the most popular skater on the planet without any social media presence which was a fact often commented upon as a phenomenon in itself. So it seems like social media might not be a decisive factor, after all.
Alas, IMHO, pushing Malinin with awards and scores has nothing to do with anyone's concern for the future of the sport.

 

[DancingCactus]

What even is a figure skating fan these days in terms of measuring the popularity of the sport? The ISU certainly doesn't make any money from me.

TV rights? Don't seem to be worth anything anymore for this sport, at least in Germany. Live comps? There never are any big competitions in Germany. But I bet if they actually managed to get a Grand Prix in Munich or Hamburg (please not Berlin) just for once, people would come because of the novelty. YouTube monetization is tricky and the ISU channel is not big enough.

How to grow the popularity of a sport in an age where people don't really watch a lot of TV anymore and many have the attention span of a fly? Are there any positive examples figure skating can steal from?

The only reason I ever got interested in watching FS is thanks to a manga about Ice dance. Then I checked out the Vancouver Olympics and saw some really cool stuff. And from then in it was an uphill battle to even find out where and how to watch or get basic information other than Wikipedia and this forum.

Anyway, the gist of the rant is, I don't think Ilia Malinin will win over the casual viewer who just happens to stumble upon him and save the sport.

 

[icewhite]

I think few things are impossible in this world but getting North America or North Western European youth into skating is impossible. However I believe you can have luck more south with Italy/Spain for instance. I think I have even seen a good deal of Portuguese comments as of late (likely Brazil) so perhaps that is an untapped market (but its hard for me to tell the difference between Spanish/Portuguese so not sure).

I don't think it's impossible at all. But you need to sell it differently.

 

[Mathematician]

I don't think it's impossible at all. But you need to sell it differently.

How would you want to package it differently? It would be interesting if there is a blue ocean waiting for skating to take over, but also I wonder how many of those blue oceans would necessitate a level of blasphemy against the sophistication of the sport. I suppose you can make anything popular anywhere for the sake of popularity, marketing is a ruthless science. It is just that from my traditionalist artistic perspective of skating I dont see it in that part of the world. There are many niche olympic sports which recently have taken a surge in views and interest though at the expense of the dignity and autonomy of athletes (particularly the women), such as forced attire which detracts from the skill and more to the form, which of course is a positive ROI for the businessmen, but I think quite tragic for the sport, fans and athletes. This is the kind of thing, I think, that will get you mass attraction in the hard west. Just my observation.

 

[icewhite]

What even is a figure skating fan these days in terms of measuring the popularity of the sport? The ISU certainly doesn't make any money from me.

TV rights? Don't seem to be worth anything anymore for this sport, at least in Germany. Live comps? There never are any big competitions in Germany. But I bet if they actually managed to get a Grand Prix in Munich or Hamburg (please not Berlin) just for once, people would come because of the novelty. YouTube monetization is tricky and the ISU channel is not big enough.

How to grow the popularity of a sport in an age where people don't really watch a lot of TV anymore and many have the attention span of a fly? Are there any positive examples figure skating can steal from?

The only reason I ever got interested in watching FS is thanks to a manga about Ice dance. Then I checked out the Vancouver Olympics and saw some really cool stuff. And from then in it was an uphill battle to even find out where and how to watch or get basic information other than Wikipedia and this forum.

Anyway, the gist of the rant is, I don't think Ilia Malinin will win over the casual viewer who just happens to stumble upon him and save the sport.

Tiktok!!!
I never use it, I hate it, but how can anyone pretend it's not the most important thing today to reach a young audience...
Did you guys see how people suddenly showed up at another site fs because they had seen the video of that young Russian ice dance couple - which unfortunately then broke up and are banned anyway - what if they had been a young, very successful Canadian or French couple?
People said they were everywhere on tiktok - get the current young ice dance teams there, like Zingas/Kolesnik, like Lim/Quan, etc. etc. Don't rely on just one team. Don't let them do Michael Jackson only - I think Lim/Quan have good programs and outfits already, but there is so much up to date music they can use for shows - and then don't just "put it on tiktok", because that's just not enough. Every little business owner today knows there are real strategies for this kind of online marketing - use them if you have the money like the ISU does!!! Don't tell me they don't have any money at all. This is investment!!!
Leave the zone with the cheesy stuff with music from decades ago - you can still do it, but only here and there - that cannot be the main focus.
Urgh, there's so much more... I wanted to write all of that in the vision of figure skating thread... I guess I will do that eventually...

 

[icewhite]

How would you want to package it differently? It would be interesting if there is a blue ocean waiting for skating to take over, but also I wonder how many of those blue oceans would necessitate a level of blasphemy against the sophistication of the sport. I suppose you can make anything popular anywhere for the sake of popularity, marketing is a ruthless science. It is just that from my traditionalist artistic perspective of skating I dont see it in that part of the world. There are many niche olympic sports which recently have taken a surge in views and interest though at the expense of the dignity and autonomy of athletes (particularly the women), such as forced attire which detracts from the skill and more to the form, which of course is a positive ROI for the businessmen, but I think quite tragic for the sport, fans and athletes. This is the kind of thing, I think, that will get you mass attraction in the hard west. Just my observation.

I suppose what you call "sophistication" is your idea of sophistication.
I can only praise the French, which in my eyes have shown these past years that you can have "sophisticated" modern choreos and music choices, that you can be highly entertaining and not super cheesy and cliché or effect hunting only.
IAM also has some good stuff, although not all of it is my taste.
Hagenauer, Cizeron, Richaud, Arribert-Narce are going into a great direction in my opinion.

 

[Mathematician]

Tiktok!!!
I never use it, I hate it, but how can anyone pretend it's not the most important thing today to reach a young audience...
Did you guys see how people suddenly showed up at another site fs because they had seen the video of that young Russian ice dance couple - which unfortunately than broke up and are banned anyway - what if they had been a young, very successful Canadian or French couple?
People said they were everywhere on tiktok - get the current young ice dance teams there, like Zingas/Kolesnik, like Lim/Quan, etc. etc. Don't rely on just team. Don't let them do Michael Jackson only - I think Lim/Quan have good programs and outfits already, but there is so much up to date music they can use for shows - and then don't just "put it on tiktok", because that's just not enough. Every little business owner today knows there are real strategies for this kind of online marketing - use them if you have the money like the ISU does!!! Don't tell me they don't have any money at all. This is investment!!!
Leave the zone with the cheesy stuff with music from decades ago - you can still do it, but only here and now - that cannot be the main focus.
Urgh, there's so much more... I wanted to write all of that in the vision of figure skating thread... I guess I will do that eventually...

I suppose what you call "sophistication" is your idea of sophistication.
I can only praise the French, which in my eyes have shown these past years that you can have "sophisticated" modern choreos and music choices, that you can be highly entertaining and not super cheesy and cliché or effect hunting only.
IAM also has some good stuff, although not all of it is my taste.
Hagenauer, Cizeron, Richaud, Arribert-Narce are going into a great direction in my opinion.

Allow me to explain like this then:

Perhaps we have differing views of sophistication or artistry, but thankfully for the point here we dont need to debate it. Perhaps instead of sophistication we will say instead emotional/personal concern to something more than a reductionist and purely spectacular purpose of that thing.

To explain my point I will bring attention to a thread in which there was a large debate happening on whether skating is an art or not, the merit of either side I wont discuss here but I will give my observation on what I think the outcome of those sides are on the skating scenes of the regions correlated to either side.

All those, and yes, all, who argued skating is not an art and proposed the existence of an intrinsic gap in lets say "sophistication" or "validity" between traditional arts like music to skating, with the implication that skating is inferior, were users from the west in which skating is self-admittedly struggling.

Those users from other areas where skating is prospering seemed to be unanimously shocked that someone can even hold this idea.

The result is what matters, not the essence of the arguments themselves: art consequents personal involvement, something to relate to and some way to receive or express emotion; this leads to dedicated fans who are willing to search out replays, streams, and follow skaters developing emotional attachment. Meanwhile TikTok, which by the way is flooded with skating content with millions of likes in western communities, may garner the active interest but not prolonged engagement or care. Especially with the nature of such entertainment sites focusing on instant gratification and the superficial rather than cultivating long-term passions.

Beware that I am not implying western skating itself to be less artistic in its programming or what not, but moreso I am drawing the parallel between the societal disposition to sports and perhaps things in general. Therefore I consider the issue of western skating popularity to be a societal consequence and not an issue of marketing, packaging or any linear system by which people seem to imply might fix things. What would be required is an entire philosophical overhaul of the society to be open for a new way to interpret sports and art - I think so. I hope I shared this opinion in a digestible, objective and non-pretentious way as much as possible.

 

[icewhite]

Allow me to explain like this then:

Perhaps we have differing views of sophistication or artistry, but thankfully for the point here we dont need to debate it. Perhaps instead of sophistication we will say instead emotional/personal concern to something more than a reductionist and purely spectacular purpose of that thing.

To explain my point I will bring attention to a thread in which there was a large debate happening on whether skating is an art or not, the merit of either side I wont discuss here but I will give my observation on what I think the outcome of those sides are on the skating scenes of the regions correlated to either side.

All those, and yes, all, who argued skating is not an art and proposed the existence of an intrinsic gap in lets say "sophistication" or "validity" between traditional arts like music to skating, with the implication that skating is inferior, were users from the west in which skating is self-admittedly struggling.

Those users from other areas where skating is prospering seemed to be unanimously shocked that someone can even hold this idea.

The result is what matters, not the essence of the arguments themselves: art consequents personal involvement, something to relate to and some way to receive or express emotion; this leads to dedicated fans who are willing to search out replays, streams, and follow skaters developing emotional attachment. Meanwhile TikTok, which by the way is flooded with skating content with millions of likes in western communities, may garner the active interest but not prolonged engagement or care. Especially with the nature of such entertainment sites focusing on instant gratification and the superficial rather than cultivating long-term passions.

Beware that I am not implying western skating itself to be less artistic in its programming or what not, but moreso I am drawing the parallel between the societal disposition to sports and perhaps things in general. Therefore I consider the issue of western skating popularity to be a societal consequence and not an issue of marketing, packaging or any linear system by which people seem to imply might fix things. What would be required is an entire philosophical overhaul of the society to be open for a new way to interpret sports and art - I think so. I hope I shared this opinion in a digestible, objective and non-pretentious way as much as possible.

The way you present your opinion here is totally fine, I just don't agree with it at all, or better, I look at it from a completely different side.

I took part in that "art thread" and indeed I am one of the people saying figure skating is not art - although it can be at times. For me it's first and foremost a sport. I am an avid sports watcher and there are sports that attract a huge audience although they are definitely not art. Figure skating isn't and will never be American football or soccer or ice hockey - but there are small sports that are prospering, small sports which are at least doing fine, and then there are some like figure skating who are very much struggling to attract an audience almost everywhere.
I see many fans saying "that's just the way it is, it's a niche sport, it will never be like football, people just don't care, no matter how you change figure skating". I don't agree with that at all. There is a lot that can be done, both in changing the actual sport and its structures, and the way it is marketed.
I also don't think that "western" is a term that is very helpful here.
What do you mean by "western"?
In Russia figure skating is popular because a) the state supports it A LOT, financially, promotionally, all around, b) because there are ice rinks everywhere and skating is possible all year and also not as expensive as in some other places, c) because it has a tradition in figure skating, d) because it has been very successful in this sport in the more recent past as well. Not because it's art - but that's just my opinion, I have no statistics to back it up. I also think that the Russian skating in general is EXTREMELY drama-affine and capable, and that's another reason people follow it. It's off ice drama, though.
You get almost no off-ice drama with Asian skaters - you just don't know anything about their private lives, about their rivalries, there are no provocative statements, public meltdowns, bitchy remarks, commentators expressing their opinion on skaters private lives in the media etc. etc. After three years Shoma was finally pressured to out his relationship with Honda. He did not want to do that. You get very little content about their relationship. You don't get him to talk bitchy about Yuma. And what do I know about Kaori Sakamoto apart from her skating? I know that she recently finished her business administration degree, that's it. Even though I have followed her trajectory in the past years up to a certain degree, I know nothing about her parents, her coaches, her relationship with them - even the ISU recently put out a post in which they assumed Mie Hamada was her coach.

I think the figure skating fan scene is most of all extremely drawn to drama in every way. Again, no statistics, just my impression. On or off ice, drama has to be, yes. I would not call that art. There are sports rivalries like Messi-Ronaldo, they are interesting to fans, nothing to do with art.

I think the biggest defenders of "figure skating is art" are not Russians, btw., but Yuzu fans. Because it's what defined Yuzuru in comparison to Nathan, who always viewed this as a sport first and foremost, whereas Yuzuru was obviously as much interested in seeing it as art.
Is Japan Western or Eastern? I really cannot work with these terms.

 

[Mathematician]

The way you present your opinion here is totally fine, I just don't agree with it at all, or better, I look at it from a completely different side.

I took part in that "art thread" and indeed I am one of the people saying figure skating is not art - although it can be at times. For me it's first and foremost a sport. I am an avid sports watcher and there are sports that attract a huge audience although they are definitely not art. Figure skating isn't and will never be American football or soccer or ice hockey - but there are small sports that are prospering, small sports which are at least doing fine, and then there are some like figure skating who are very much struggling to attract an audience almost everywhere.
I see many fans saying "that's just the way it is, it's a niche sport, it will never be like football, people just don't care, no matter how you change figure skating". I don't agree with that at all. There is a lot that can be done, both in changing the actual sport and its structures, and the way it is marketed.
I also don't think that "western" is a term that is very helpful here.
What do you mean by "western"?
In Russia figure skating is popular because a) the state supports it A LOT, financially, promotionally, all around, b) because there are ice rinks everywhere and skating is possible all year and also not as expensive as in some other places, c) because it has a tradition in figure skating, d) because it has been very successful in this sport in the more recent past as well. Not because it's art - but that's just my opinion, I have no statistics to back it up. I also think that the Russian skating in general is EXTREMELY drama-affine and capable, and that's another reason people follow it. It's off ice drama, though.
You get almost no off-ice drama with Asian skaters - you just don't know anything about their private lives, about their rivalries, there are no provocative statements, public meltdowns, bitchy remarks, commentators expressing their opinion on skaters private lives in the media etc. etc. After three years Shoma was finally pressured to out his relationship with Honda. He did not want to do that. You get very little content about their relationship. You don't get him to talk bitchy about Yuma. And what do I know about Kaori Sakamoto apart from her skating? I know that she recently finished her business administration degree, that's it. Even though I have followed her trajectory in the past years up to a certain degree, I know nothing about her parents, her coaches, her relationship with them - even the ISU recently put out a post in which they assumed Mie Hamada was her coach.

I think the figure skating fan scene is most of all extremely drawn to drama in every way. Again, no statistics, just my impression. On or off ice, drama has to be, yes. I would not call that art. There are sports rivalries like Messi-Ronaldo, they are interesting to fans, nothing to do with art.

I think the biggest defenders of "figure skating is art" are not Russians, btw., but Yuzu fans. Because it's what defined Yuzuru in comparison to Nathan, who always viewed this as a sport first and foremost, whereas Yuzuru was obviously as much interested in seeing it as art.
Is Japan Western or Eastern? I really cannot work with these terms.

Hey I appreciate your opinion but I hope you can understand how your opening statement sort of makes me even more confident in my perspective haha.

About sports, yes my point is exactly that skating tries to be a sport and thats how you people interpret it, but it will indeed never be NBA or Fifa - its not a fair competition and it cant win that battle. Art-Sport is the blue ocean you are looking for but maintaining the opinion that skating is not an art will keep you in the red ocean against utterly unbeatable competition. And yes, Japanese do absolutely and vehemently take skating as art, more less than Russians is irrelevant and know that I never mentioned Russia, I mentioned nations who have artistic disposition to skating, and the discipline is popular in Japan, so doesnt that support my point? You can disregard the idea of western and eastern countries - consider the artistic skating nations and inartistic and compare commercial success - the correlation is not ignorable.

Anyways, whether skating is art or not is your choice, but at this point I am 100% sure you will not find the results you are looking for if you expect the region in question to maintain that same perspective.

 

[4everchan]

Figure skating will remain a niche sport simply because it's not something that kids can pick up that easily... at school or for very little money. Football can be played almost anywhere with just a ball.. Kids dream about being the next Messi or whatever. They actually can dream too because, well, they don't have to rent ice time and buy super expensive blades. It's simple as that. How can a kid develop a passion for something they have never been able to try or experience ? I am not saying it's impossible because, you know, I am not a skater myself and I am passionate about the sport. But I am also not a typical person so i guess I am into "weird" things I think @icewhite is right about why the sport is so popular in Russia. I don't think ISU awards will make the sport more popular. Nobody outside hardcore fans would even know they exist... very futile enterprise if you ask me. On top of that, the effort is also wasted on many hardcore fans (like myself) who find these awards ridiculous.

 

[icewhite]

Hey I appreciate your opinion but I hope you can understand how your opening statement sort of makes me even more confident in my perspective haha.

About sports, yes my point is exactly that skating tries to be a sport and thats how you people interpret it, but it will indeed never be NBA or Fifa - its not a fair competition and it cant win that battle. Art-Sport is the blue ocean you are looking for but maintaining the opinion that skating is not an art will keep you in the red ocean against utterly unbeatable competition. And yes, Japanese do absolutely and vehemently take skating as art, more less than Russians is irrelevant and know that I never mentioned Russia, I mentioned nations who have artistic disposition to skating, and the discipline is popular in Japan, so doesnt that support my point? You can disregard the idea of western and eastern countries - consider the artistic skating nations and inartistic and compare commercial success - the correlation is not ignorable.

Anyways, whether skating is art or not is your choice, but at this point I am 100% sure you will not find the results you are looking for if you expect the region in question to maintain that same perspective.

But figure skating is not very popular in Japan. Yuzuru is extremely popular, yes, and the Japanese single skaters are very successful. I don't think the Japanese public cares about figure skating itself a lot.

 

[Mathematician]

But figure skating is not very popular in Japan. Yuzuru is extremely popular, yes, and the Japanese single skaters are very successful. I don't think the Japanese public cares about figure skating itself a lot.

I dont know, I always had an impression of its popularity in Japan? I thought that was rather a given. I recall Shcherbakova talking about how similar Japanese skating fans are to Russians in their love for the aesthetic and art as a general performance, and how much attention and popularity she got there as a skater since apparently they love skating.

 

[icewhite]

I dont know, I always had an impression of its popularity in Japan? I thought that was rather a given. I recall Shcherbakova talking about how similar Japanese skating fans are to Russians in their love for the aesthetic and art as a general performance, and how much attention and popularity she got there as a skater since apparently they love skating.

Well, we will have to ask the Japanese about this.
But I thought there is a certain scene of fans, which is bigger and more devoted than in most countries, but it's not society overall, but still a niche scene.

 

[Mathematician]

Well, we will have to ask the Japanese about this.
But I thought there is a certain scene of fans, which is bigger and more devoted than in most countries, but it's not society overall, but still a niche scene.

Hard to draw the line between niche and mainstream. Likely if you're looking for serious mainstream status its just Russia and perhaps Korea in the Kim era. Regardless the health of the scene in Japan as compared to USA/Canada is quite substantial from my understanding.

 

[DancingCactus]

Afaik has has been more popular in Japan than in Europe or America for years. Even way before Yuzu. Mao was super popular, before the war Russia skaters etc also..
I don't know any numbers, but if you go on the sports page of any major website, there is a lot of figure skating news.

 

[Rebecca Moose]

Malinin is extremely talented, love the confidence and technical prowess, but seriously lacks charisma. Quad axels only go so far. And it's pointless anyways, because let's face it, no American man or pairs or dancer will ever really break through to the mainstream -- it has to be a woman, like Simone Biles.

 

[synesthesia]

I don't know any numbers, but if you go on the sports page of any major website, there is a lot of figure skating news.

Figure skating content is also shown on Japanese tv constantly. They have “figure skating tv”, which reports on competitions and other figure skating related news, documentaries and entire programs dedicated to figure skating best ofs. When there is no new content they rebroadcast competition highlights and shows (of which there are of course aplenty in Japan). Even Cheryl Burke's ("Dancing with the stars") floor dance show, performed in Tokyo in 2016 and 2017, featuring retired big names Kristi Yamaguchi, Meryl Davis and Charlie White with Daisuke Takahashi as the main draw, is rebroadcasted regularly on TBS to this day (as well as the corresponding BTS/Making of "Daisuke Takahashi in L.A."), just because of its figure skating tangent and Daisuke’s popularity.

Several of the well known/popular skaters are guests on tv and/or radio talkshows together with Japanese celebrities. Kanako Murakami recently announced her engagement on a popular variety show on NTV and even brought her future husband along (which is admittedly atypical for Japanese skaters).

Some get to grace the covers of fashion magazines (and not only Hanyu).

There are costume and photo exhibitions and entire classical concerts dedicated to figure skating music.

There’s a substantial amount of figure skating magazines and books and most of the popular skaters sell their own merchandise.



I wish we had only a fraction of this in Germany. The only figure skaters with any sort of sustained name recognition / exposure are Katarina Witt, who is of course a legend of the sport and sometimes guest commentates skating, mainly at the Olympics, and gets invited to talk and gameshows and Rudi Cerne, who after retiring from skating, went on to be a sports presenter (primarily soccer/football) and true crime tv host (“Aktenzeichen XY”). He also presents sports on one of the biggest evening news programs (“ZDF heute”). To be honest, I’m not sure most viewers today even know that he used to be a fairly successful figure skater. He is undoubtedly better known for his post-skating career. Tanja Szewczenko was quite well known to the general public, again, not so much for her achievements in figure skating, but for her appearances on the cover of “Playboy” and starring on “Unter uns”, a fairly popular daily soap that started in the 90ies. I think it’s kind of depressing that most people don’t even know, who Aljona Savchenko (let alone Robin Szolkowy or Bruno Massot) is (at least those with whom I had the opportunity to chat about figure skating). Even my former boss, married to a former competitive figure skater, and another co-worker, who was neighbours and friendly with Maylin and Daniel Wende, didn’t recognise the name.

 

[el henry]

Well, if we are talking about attracting new fans to the sport:

Donovan Carrillo has probably done more of that than Nathan Chen, Ilia Malinin, Alina Zagitova, Evgenia Medvedeva, Shoma Uno and Kaori Sakamoto combined. (not including Yuzuru as the outlier). A skater from Mexico, the smallest of small feds, with 472K in Insta followers

I deliberately picked skaters for comparison from the US, Russia and Japan as established skating countries. I am NOT saying anything about the skills or merits of these skaters or whether they are beloved by fans.

But 80 gazillion (or 80,000) views from countries that are already skating hotbeds or have a skating tradition? Only shows how to appeal to countries that are skating hotbeds or have a skating tradition. (which is important, but not always immediately applicable to anywhere else)

But attracting fans from areas that are not skating hotbeds? That have no skating traditions? If the ISU wants to see how to attract truly new followers, they should look to truly new skaters who are doing that.

Donovan would win that award, whatever it is, along with the costumes.

 

[Mathman]

What do you mean by "ever-younger" btw?

As I get older and older young people seem younger and younger.