ISU makes decision on 2015-16 GPF selection

[Sam-Skwantch]

I don't think the prestige of winning Euros has anything to do with feelings of superiority but rather the tradition and honor is deeply rooted in its long history. It's been around forever and has a very amazing cast of former champions that all European skaters want to join. Unlike 4CC which certain seasons countries don't even send their best skaters or the last few years when the crowd attendance is awful..... Euros is well attended by not only fans but also the nations best skaters. As long as the federations treat 4CC like a B event...I think it will always have a stigma attached.

 

[Moxiejan]

Rika and Liza could still make it, Satoko is not a shoo in, Anna could also make it, and Julia might not be one of the substitutes depending on the results of Courtney, Anna, and Satoko.
The best outcome for Liza would be for NHK Results to go as follows:
1.) Mao
2.) Ashley
3.) Anna
4.) Satoko

This is true, but the main thing that has to happen is Satoko being 4th or lower. There are lots of very inconsistent skaters in NHK (besides Anna) who have the ability to take that 3rd spot: Mirai, Kaetlyn, Alena, Maria A., Courtney and even Mae Berenice. Heck, even Courtney could still makes the final if she wins (yes, unlikely). Assuming Mao/Ashley still make it, Courtney's 20 (5 + 15) would put her 6th on the 1st tiebreak (with Rika still in at 7th and Liza & Satoko out).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't think the event is any less prestigious. Those who qualified for the final managed to qualify. For all intents and purposes, the GPF represents the skaters who skated the best in the first 6 GP events of the season.

A good example is Denis Ten, who has never made the GPF. The GPF isn't any less prestigious just because one of the world's best, who does way better in the second half of the season, continually does poorly on the GP portion of the season. Same with when a high-profile skater/team competes at just one GP event (e.g. V/T pulling out of NHK)... it doesn't make the event any less prestigious.

It's kind of insulting to the skaters who are doing well and have earned their spot there. It would be like saying the GPF in ice dance isn't as prestigious because V/M and D/W aren't competing right now.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Rika and Liza could still make it, Satoko is not a shoo in, Anna could also make it, and Julia might not be one of the substitutes depending on the results of Courtney, Anna, and Satoko.
The best outcome for Liza would be for NHK Results to go as follows:
1.) Mao
2.) Ashley
3.) Anna
4.) Satoko

This is true, but the main thing that has to happen is Satoko being 4th or lower. There are lots of very inconsistent skaters in NHK (besides Anna) who have the ability to take that 3rd spot: Mirai, Kaetlyn, Alena, Maria A., Courtney and even Mae Berenice. Heck, even Courtney could still makes the final if she wins (yes, unlikely). Assuming Mao/Ashley still make it, Courtney's 20 would put her 6th on the 1st tiebreak (with Rika still in at 7th and Liza & Satoko out).

Unfortunately, Maé is out.

 

[Moxiejan]

Didn't know that; sorry to hear.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I don't think the prestige of winning Euros has anything to do with feelings of superiority but rather the tradition and honor is deeply rooted in its long history. It's been around forever and has a very amazing cast of former champions that all European skaters want to join. Unlike 4CC which certain seasons countries don't even send their best skaters or the last few years when the crowd attendance is awful..... Euros is well attended by not only fans but also the nations best skaters.

Euro offers so many more incentives than 4CC. Besides the old status and prestige, it offers more money, less competition and travel related issues. IOW, it's much easier to go to, to compete and win more money and prestige at. 4CC is held closer to Worlds, and requires many participants to travel to and compete at a close to maximally different time zone. It is sometimes not worth the costs in time, energy and expenses to attend for those who need to focus on Worlds.

Of course, Euro is also much easier for European fans to attend as well compared to the vast lands and ocean 4CC covers. After all it is comprised of 4 continents, and their talents.

As long as the federations treat 4CC like a B event...I think it will always have a stigma attached.

I don't think there is a stigma but many pragmatic disincentives.

Maybe all this has something to do with ISU being run by mostly old European men? :think:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Less competition at Euros? If anything Euros is the event where it's hard to win (maybe not as much in men, but definitely in ladies, pairs and ice dance), and 4CC is where it's easier for skaters to place high.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Euro offers so many more incentives than 4CC. Besides the old status and prestige, it offers more money, less competition and travel related issues. IOW, it's much easier to go to, to compete and win more money and prestige at. 4CC is held closer to Worlds, and requires many participants to travel to and compete at a close to maximally different time zone. It is sometimes not worth the costs in time, energy and expenses to attend for those who need to focus on Worlds.

Of course, Euro is also much easier for European fans to attend as well compared to the vast lands and ocean 4CC covers. After all it is comprised of 4 continents, and their talents.



I don't think there is a stigma but many pragmatic disincentives.

Maybe all this has something to do with ISU being run by mostly old European men? :think:

Are you suggesting Europeon men are creating pragmatic disincentives in order to ruin 4CC?

 

[YesWay]

To me, that says everything about the skater (and nothing good), and nothing about the GPF. :disagree:

Yes... but only if the skater actually faked injury to get out of GPF...

I think more likely, it says nothing about the skaters... and everything about the people who make such accusations/rumours/suspicions. And also those who believe or perpetuate such rumors...

 

[tulosai]

I don't think there is a stigma but many pragmatic disincentives.

Maybe all this has something to do with ISU being run by mostly old European men? :think:

I think part of the issue with 4CCs is that top skaters aren't, by and large, super interested in going, in addition to their federations not being particularly interested in sending them. As others have pointed out there are pragmatic reasons for this (travel time, less prize money, too close to Worlds) but it also to some degree becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy- top skaters don't go because it's not a 'prestigious' event and it's nothing to them/their careers if they were able to do well there. The next year top skaters don't go, because they know top skaters don't go and there's nothing for them to prove there... year after year after year. If there could somehow be a shift in mindset where top skaters did in fact want to go, and therefore did go, the event would quickly gain prestige and the prize money would probably be increased accordingly. One of if not the main thing that could help this without there being some magic shift in top skaters attitudes would be to move the competition closer to the time that Euros is, so that the concern about it being too close to Worlds and excessive worry about travel time would be eliminated. But at the end of the day basically a whole attitude shift is needed, not just among federations and the upper management, but among the skaters themselves.

 

[cathlen]

As far as my understanding goes Europeans & 4 CC has the same money prize: Communication no.1976. So argument about prize money is invalid unless it was different in the past, then okay. As for being treated as more prestigous, it's because European Federations take Europeans more seriously than some of the Federations taking part in 4CC. The tradion & number of different countries participating may be a factors too. But if the fans treats 4CC as something lesser that Euros, then it's never gonna change. I treat both the same & actually thought that 4CC being free for the audience would make them more popular than Euros.

 

[chuckm]

The North American countries tend to regard 4CC as a duty rather than a privilege because most of the time it means travel to other side of the world right after Nationals, when the skaters are already exhausted. That distance means losing at least a week of training time, maybe more, due to two-way travel time, two-way jet lag and the minimal training time allotted at the 4CC venue. That is why sometimes the US sends second-tier skaters to 4CC, to allow the Worlds-bound skaters to rest up and get back to training, and also to allow up-and-coming skaters to get more exposure to championship-level competition.

This is not the case for Europeans, who have minimal travel; many European countries have their Nationals in December.

 

[Violet Bliss]

The prize money change has just been announced about a month ago and has not been awarded yet. Even in ISU Communication 1924 dated January 8, 2015, the prize money for Euro was considerably higher than for 4CC.

Other important and pragmatic issues remain for 4CC participation. As far as fans' attitude is concerned, this fan does not feel 4CC should be regarded as less than Euro. As well, the perception of fans' attitude as expressed here probably does not take much of the Asian constituents into consideration.

To be on topic, I don't know that many people consider GPF 2015 less prestigious. Most of the world's best skaters will be there, as usual. In any year, not all "expected" skaters make it there for one reason or another.

 

[cathlen]

The North American countries tend to regard 4CC as a duty rather than a privilege because most of the time it means travel to other side of the world right after Nationals, when the skaters are already exhausted. That distance means losing at least a week of training time, maybe more, due to two-way travel time, two-way jet lag and the minimal training time allotted at the 4CC venue. That is why sometimes the US sends second-tier skaters to 4CC, to allow the Worlds-bound skaters to rest up and get back to training, and also to allow up-and-coming skaters to get more exposure to championship-level competition.

This is not the case for Europeans, who have minimal travel; many European countries have their Nationals in December.

That's true, but if non-Europens Federations wanted to make it easier for their skaters, they could move their Nationals to December too. As for the other things, I understand there are difficulties, but in that perspective it' like skaters or Federation looks down on 4CC, so no wonder others perceive it like something less prestigous. Skaters are prone to make sacrifices for Worlds, but not for 4CC, which is a clear message, that it's not taken seriously and fans do the same (not everyone of course, just some of them). It's never gonna change with that attitude. Not to mention that some of European skaters train outside of Europe too...

The prize money change has just been announced about a month ago and has not been awarded yet. Even in ISU Communication 1924 dated January 8, 2015, the prize money for Euro was considerably higher than for 4CC.

Other important and pragmatic issues remain for 4CC participation. As far as fans' attitude is concerned, this fan does not feel 4CC should be regarded as less than Euro. As well, the perception of fans' attitude as expressed here probably does not take much of the Asian constituents into consideration.

To be on topic, I don't know that many people consider GPF 2015 less prestigious. Most of the world's best skaters will be there, as usual. In any year, not all "expected" skaters make it there for one reason or another.

As for the money prizes, sorry. I didn't realize there were such differences. It's good that ISU finally equalize them. Though I can't understand why ISU haven't done it earlier.

As for GPF 2015, I don't see an issue with it. Most of the participants are WC podium contenders. As always some of them are absent, but when they weren't? I will definitely look for GPF. And though the qualification system ISU came up isn't perfect, it's acceptable, since there's no way FP/FD can'be arranged.

 

[Mathman]

Somehow my post about how big a deal Skate America was to U.S. figure skating in by-gone days (when figure skating was popular in the U.S.) got blown up into a straw man. Nobody on this thread said anything about the GP Final carrying less prestige this year than others.

I would still be curious as to whether Max Aaron, if given the choice pre-season, would prefer (a) to win Skate America or (b) to be shoe-horned in as a seventh-place charity spot at the GP final and finish the middle of the pack at best.

Possibly he would choose the latter. If so, that shows that times have changed in U.S. figure skating.

 

[karne]

Think of it this way… what if Max hadn't pulled up after the SP and remained with these points…. how would you have reacted? You seem to forget that this is also a possibility.

But that would then have been his fault. I would have been unhappy about it, of course, but I would have accepted it and moved on. Here, he has been removed from contention through no fault of his own, and not given the same opportunity that others on the GP have had and will have.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Somehow my post about how big a deal Skate America was to U.S. figure skating in by-gone days (when figure skating was popular in the U.S.) got blown up into a straw man.

Let bygone be bygone, but it seems letting go and accepting the presence is hard for some people.

Nobody on this thread said anything about the GP Final carrying less prestige this year than others.

I didn't see that either. So I guessed it was carried here from other threads.

I would still be curious as to whether Max Aaron, if given the choice pre-season, would prefer (a) to win Skate America or (b) to be shoe-horned in as a seventh-place charity spot at the GP final and finish the middle of the pack at best.

Possibly he would choose the latter. If so, that shows that times have changed in U.S. figure skating.

Somehow I don't think skaters wonder about endless possibilities and non available choices like fans do. They learn the rules of the game and do their job the best they can. I don't see them indicating otherwise.

 

[silverlake22]

Max was less than 2 points out of 6th place in the TEB SP, so I kind of get the disappointment, because if he had just placed 6th, then he'd most likely make the final. Chances are he would have pulled up at least 1 spot after the FS considering Petrov was barely ahead of him in the first place. It is what it is, but after winning a GP event, you usually have a pretty good shot to make GPF even if you don't do amazing at your next event. So Max could have probably gotten away with placing 4th or 5th at TEB and would still make it (regardless of extra spots), so the fact that even after this whole SP results debacle he was just a place or two from making it, that is a bit rough. If he needed to medal and was in 7th after the SP, I'd say, yeah, there's quite a good possibility that would not have happened anyways, but that's not really the case. 5th or 6th would have likely done it.

 

[Rissa]

Pretty much. Oh, don't say that out loud, apparently it's a great and wonderful thing that he's missing the GPF, because obviously one harshly-scored short program is SO MUCH MORE important than a Grand Prix gold...

To be honest, karne, I don't think that people being "happy" that Max would miss GPF is because his one gold is less important than his one SP screw up. I suspect it's because his programs aren't very good and there are others who those people would like to see at GPF more. At least this is my approach, as someone who will actually be there at GPF.

That, and most people do seem to believe using the SP results IS the fairest way.

 

[Violet Bliss]

But that would then have been his fault. I would have been unhappy about it, of course, but I would have accepted it and moved on. Here, he has been removed from contention through no fault of his own, and not given the same opportunity that others on the GP have had and will have.

You and Max have to take it up with the terrorists. It's no fault of other GP skaters either. Or the organizers involved.

If you feel Max has no responsibility at all but is a victim, then any other solution would likely "victimize" some other skaters. This is an event that cannot be rectified to every single person's satisfaction.

Has Max expressed his feelings about this situation?