ISU makes decision on 2015-16 GPF selection

[Mathman]

Let bygone be bygone, but it seems letting go and accepting the presence is hard for some people.

In this case, yes, for me it is. In bygone days American sports fans cared something about figure skating, stars like Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill were huge, and even Skate Americas was a -- well, not a major sports event, but still something worth turning on the TV for. Times change, but not always for the better, IMHO.

Somehow I don't think skaters wonder about endless possibilities and non available choices like fans do. They learn the rules of the game and do their job the best they can. I don't see them indicating otherwise.

They don't, no. Still I hope that for the long haul Max will come out more happy about his Skate America title than sad about missing the GP final. On to Nationals!

 

[melmel]

But that would then have been his fault. I would have been unhappy about it, of course, but I would have accepted it and moved on. Here, he has been removed from contention through no fault of his own, and not given the same opportunity that others on the GP have had and will have.

But none of the other skaters at TEB have been "given the same opportunity". I don't really understand why you're so hellbent on this Oo. TEB was cancelled due to entirely external circumstances and the organisations did try to avoid cancellation as much as they could and it's not even on their hands that it was cancelled. The situation was de facto, with the way the rules were, unfair to every skater at TEB. Even those who performed well.

By the way, we could also argue that it wouldn't have been fair to make the french skaters skate if they hadn't cancelled. Considering Morgan Ciprès reaction, it may have been make him and Vanessa totally bomb their free, which they may have not bombed in normal circumstances. See ? we can turn this argument all around for everyone. Of course things couldn't go as usual because it didn't go as usual. Stop torturing yourself with "but" and "if", it's not a situation where they are appliable. Also it's borderline disrespectful to what happened.

Personally I find the ISU decision here very fair. It disrupts the less the rest of the GP and it doesn't downplay the achievements of those who were at TEB. And it will set a precedent if a cancellation in the middle of a competition happens for the future.

 

[Violet Bliss]

In this case, yes, for me it is. In bygone days American sports fans cared something about figure skating, stars like Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill were huge, and even Skate Americas was a -- well, not a major sports event, but still something worth turning on the TV for. Times change, but not always for the better, IMHO.

Cycles, pendulum.......... natural order of things.

They don't, no. Still I hope that for the long haul Max will come out more happy about his Skate America title than sad about missing the GP final. On to Nationals!

He should be happy about his SA win. He can choose how he feels about the GPF and I hope it's a good choice, better than some of his fans'. Has GPF been his goal all along this season?

Yes, on to Nationals, and then Worlds!

 

[Mrs. P]

The last U.S. Man to qualify for the Grand Prix Final ended up not going to Worlds...

There isn't a correlation, of course. But just stating a fact.

Back to the topic. I think it's a workable solution given the circumstances.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
But that would then have been his fault. I would have been unhappy about it, of course, but I would have accepted it and moved on. Here, he has been removed from contention through no fault of his own, and not given the same opportunity that others on the GP have had and will have.

No fault of his own is a bit inaccurate isn't it? It was his skating in the SP that left him in this situation and I think it's fair that we at least own up to that part of it.

 

[ice coverage]

... a seventh-place charity spot at the GP final ....

If you're going to throw around the word "charity," then any TEB skater who qualifies for the GPF is being given a "charity" spot.

Example:
Evgenia, Ashley, Mao, and Elena skated both their SP and FS to earn 15 ranking points from the GPs that they won.
Based on the ad hoc ruling of the ISU, Gracie is receiving 15 ranking points for her SP at TEB. No one is at fault here -- not the ISU; not Gracie; not Evgenia, Ashley, Mao, or Elena. But Gracie is benefiting from a special ruling for TEB skaters, so she is a "charity" case too. As are Shoma and Kovtun; etc.; etc.

---

... He should be happy about his SA win. He can choose how he feels about the GPF and I hope it's a good choice, better than some of his fans'. Has GPF been his goal all along this season? ...

Even before winning Skate America, Max had said that qualifying for the GPF was one of his goals for the season. (Winning a GP was not one of his stated goals.)

I believe Max always will be happy about his Skate America win -- as he should be.

But if he does not reach the GPF, I don't think he will take an unattained goal lightly.
I'm not saying that he will be devastated (nor do I think he should be), but I don't think winning Skate America will make it easy to shrug off missing the cut for the GPF.
Like many of the skaters, Max loves to compete and is very goal-oriented. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Even before winning Skate America, Max had said that qualifying for the GPF was one of his goals for the season. (Winning a GP was not one of his stated goals.)

I believe Max always will be happy about his Skate America win -- as he should be.

But if he does not reach the GPF, I don't think he will take an unattained goal lightly.
I'm not saying that he will be devastated (nor do I think he should be), but I don't think winning Skate America will make it easy to shrug off missing the cut for the GPF.
Like many of the skaters, Max loves to compete and is very goal-oriented. Nothing wrong with that.

No. But it would not be wise to let missing GPF spoil his SA joy and/or to hinder his focus on the remaining goals.

 

[skylark]

But that would then have been his fault. I would have been unhappy about it, of course, but I would have accepted it and moved on. Here, he has been removed from contention through no fault of his own, and not given the same opportunity that others on the GP have had and will have.

Well, it isn't Jason Brown's "fault" that he needs to recover from an injury and will miss NHK and a chance at GPF, either. Or Gracie's that she was injured last year... and so forth.

In this sport (in any sport, as I think Max knows better than most), things happen that aren't fair. You shake it off and move on.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Has the ISU said what would happen to a 2nd substitute from TEB who became the first substitute in case of a withdrawal? Especially if the original first substitute was also from TEB and had already been entered as a finalist?

 

[noskates]

Have to totally agree with skylark. Stuff happens! How about Karen Cadavy getting the stomach flu the night before her LP at the Olympics. There is no doubt a long list. It just goes to show that every single time you take the ice - it's important.

 

[TwinnerA]

Yes... but only if the skater actually faked injury to get out of GPF...

I think more likely, it says nothing about the skaters... and everything about the people who make such accusations/rumours/suspicions. And also those who believe or perpetuate such rumors...

Thank you.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Max was less than 2 points out of 6th place in the TEB SP, so I kind of get the disappointment, because if he had just placed 6th, then he'd most likely make the final. Chances are he would have pulled up at least 1 spot after the FS considering Petrov was barely ahead of him in the first place. It is what it is, but after winning a GP event, you usually have a pretty good shot to make GPF even if you don't do amazing at your next event. So Max could have probably gotten away with placing 4th or 5th at TEB and would still make it (regardless of extra spots), so the fact that even after this whole SP results debacle he was just a place or two from making it, that is a bit rough. If he needed to medal and was in 7th after the SP, I'd say, yeah, there's quite a good possibility that would not have happened anyways, but that's not really the case. 5th or 6th would have likely done it.

No, a 6th place would have very, very likely not done it. He would even lose out to someone with 2nd + 4th then. Javi is in anyway, PChan would have only needed a 5th, and all of Shoma, Yuzu, Boyang and Maxim only a 4th to beat out Max with 6th place. Even with a 5th place Max' chances wouldn't have been great, as he would still lose out to Chan being at least 4th and the other 4 guys making the podium. And that's not even counting other potential spoilers like Daisuke...

4th would have likely done it. But therefor he would have needed to beat at least 3 guys in front of him. Okay, let's say he'd get ahead of Petrov: 1. But then he'd need to overtake 2 out of: Chan who had a 3+ point cushion; Denis with a 7+ cushion; Daisuke with 7+ points; Maxim with a 13+ point cushion; Shoma with a 16+ points cushion.
Skating in the 1st group would have probably meant he'd get hold back on PCS. Additionally, all of those guys have higher scoring potential than him for now, save for maybe Murakami. IMO, it's pretty safe to say it's very unlikely he'd have beaten Chan, Uno and Kovtun. Given that Murakami is pretty consistent, it's again very unlikely Max could have made up a 7 point difference. Denis can be a wildcard, due to his injury, but catching up to the other 4 guys would have been a very tall order. Of course it's not impossible, and he would have deserved the chance - but I honestly think the bottom line is Max sadly took himself out of contention with that SP (and I would have really liked to see him at the GPF).

Now I hope he doesn't let it get to him too much but comes back with a vengeance at nationals to not make the same mistake, and deliver a great SP.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Has anyone taken the men's SB scores and added them to the results of TEB to see the potential outcomes?

 

[ice coverage]

... Now I hope he doesn't let it get to him too much but comes back with a vengeance at nationals to not make the same mistake, and deliver a great SP.

For the record: five days after his TEB SP, Max earned a new ISU PB for his SP -- at Tallinn Trophy.

So I would say he already did come back with a vengeance .

And I hope we see more of the same at Nats.

 

[Jammers]

If you're going to throw around the word "charity," then any TEB skater who qualifies for the GPF is being given a "charity" spot.

Example:
Evgenia, Ashley, Mao, and Elena skated both their SP and FS to earn 15 ranking points from the GPs that they won.
Based on the ad hoc ruling of the ISU, Gracie is receiving 15 ranking points for her SP at TEB. No one is at fault here -- not the ISU; not Gracie; not Evgenia, Ashley, Mao, or Elena. But Gracie is benefiting from a special ruling for TEB skaters, so she is a "charity" case too. As are Shoma and Kovtun; etc.; etc.

---

Even before winning Skate America, Max had said that qualifying for the GPF was one of his goals for the season. (Winning a GP was not one of his stated goals.)

I believe Max always will be happy about his Skate America win -- as he should be.

But if he does not reach the GPF, I don't think he will take an unattained goal lightly.
I'm not saying that he will be devastated (nor do I think he should be), but I don't think winning Skate America will make it easy to shrug off missing the cut for the GPF.
Like many of the skaters, Max loves to compete and is very goal-oriented. Nothing wrong with that.

That is nonsense about Gracie being a charity case. She already had a 2nd place finish at SA and would have had to bomb huge to not finish at least in second place and most likely get a GPF spot. In fact until COR she had both the highest SP and LP score of the GP season. Doesn't sound like someone who needed charity to me.

 

[ice coverage]

That is nonsense about Gracie being a charity case. She already had a 2nd place finish at SA and would have had to bomb huge to not finish at least in second place and most likely get a GPF spot. In fact until COR she had both the highest SP and LP score of the GP season. Doesn't sound like someone who needed charity to me.

LOL, the key words in your post are "would have."
None of us can be 100% certain of what "would have" happened with Gracie ... or with Max ... or with Shoma ... or with Kovtun ... or with Daisuke ... etc., etc.

At some times, Gracie has been capable of handling pressure. Other times, not so much.

Either none of the TEB skaters are charity cases -- or all of them are. Can't have it both ways.

 

[Mathman]

If you're going to throw around the word "charity," then any TEB skater who qualifies for the GPF is being given a "charity" spot.

I look at it like this. The first thing the ISU had to decide is, yes or no, shall we accept the TEB short program as determining the winners and placements for that event. Deciding "yes" or deciding "no" was not done out of a sense of human-heartedness and is not "charity."

Second, the ISU had to decide what to do about point totals for tie-breaking purposes, etc. They tried to do it as fairly and evenhandedly as possible. Striving for fairness is not "charity."

Third -- oops, these decisions left a few skaters in a sad situation. They might have improved their standings if they had not suffered a blow from cruel fate. Let's help them out. We are not uncharitable people, after all.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

For the record: five days after his TEB SP, Max earned a new ISU PB for his SP -- at Tallinn Trophy.

So I would say he already did come back with a vengeance .

And I hope we see more of the same at Nats.

Ah, that's great - thanks for pointing that out! Then I hope too he does the same at nats again :yes:

 

[Mathman]

Has the ISU said what would happen to a 2nd substitute from TEB who became the first substitute in case of a withdrawal? Especially if the original first substitute was also from TEB and had already been entered as a finalist?

Now we're getting somewhere. A skater finishes in seventh place as first alternate. This skater did not skate at TEB. He is not going to the finals.

His buddy did skate at TEB and finishes as second alternate in eighth place. The first guy says, "I withdraw" elevating the second skater. The second skater goes to the finals (agreeing to split the prize money under the table with the first guy. :yes: )

 

[noskates]

Probably I'm being dense but I don't understand the use of the word "charity" in ANY of these discussions for ANY of the skaters. A truly bad thing happened that really transcends the impact it had on the sport of figure skating. Several skaters had some pretty bad luck but not without their own contribution to that situation. I'm really sorry Max had a poor outing in his short program but this isn't all about him. We all knew instinctively that whatever solution the ISU came up with it would not be "fair" to all of the skaters at TEB. I'm actually quite amazed that their decision is as fair as it is. But none of it has anything whatsoever to do with charity. ALL of the skaters that participated in TEB work very, very, VERY hard at their sport and none of them deserved to have their competition cut short with the GPF hanging in the balance.

But it happened. And the decision was made. And all the skaters and all the fans have to just literally move on. I've been disappointed time and again with this sport - why didn't Kurt Browning ever win an Olympic medal? Why didn't Michelle Kwan win a gold medal. Why did many of my favorite skaters never win Nationals? How come the dang SF 49'ers are so crappy this year and how come my SF Giants didn't go to the World Series....and so on and so on! There are just things that no amount of wanting can cause to happen.

All of these skaters still have their Nationals and all of them still have a chance to participate in their Nationals and hopefully some of them will make it to Worlds.

But charity? Poor use of the word and it doesn't apply.