ISU makes decision on 2015-16 GPF selection

[ice coverage]

I really don't see why Max not making GPF is a greater issue than Liza being out of it.

In any objective sense, Max's fate is not inherently a greater issue than Liza's fate (nor vice versa), if you ask me.

But it obviously can be a subjective response as to how loud a chord any particular skater's fate strikes with any particular person.
I have seen many posts (not only in this thread) discussing Liza's fate regarding the GPF, so I believe her fate understandably is striking a chord with many people.

(Max's fate happens to strike a loud chord with me because he is a long-time favorite of mine; because he had stated before Skate America that the GPF was one of his goals; and because his first-ever GP gold at Skate America was a big step toward qualifying for his first-ever senior GPF.)

Right, or even poor neglected Tarasova/Mozorov who were only 3 points off of second place, but placed in 7th, and who almost certainly would have passed most of the teams who were ahead of them after the short in the free and certainly ended up no worse than 4th- but no one cares about them because they aren't as popular as Liza and don't have any individuals doggedly defending them as Max does. Just because they aren't as popular doesn't mean they aren't as hurt by this.

... Max is getting the most love in this thread but Liza, Tarasova/Mozorov, Peng/Zhang, Gillies/Porier, Coomes/Buckland and probably some others all were at least potentially hurt by what happened, and hurt the same amount by it since it either diminished or killed their chances of making it to the final. But at the end of the day, that is life.

I would be happy for Liza or any pairs or any dancers to receive more love in this thread.

In my case, most of my posts on GS in general (not only in this thread) are about the men, who are the discipline of greatest interest to me in general. (Ever since Tessa/Scott stopped competing :sad4:.)
I do not know enough about other disciplines to parse how TEB affected the skaters listed above... and I do not see any reason to post about their possible/likely fates when I do not know what I'm talking about.

 

[tulosai]

In my case, most of my posts on GS in general (not only in this thread) are about the men, who are the discipline of greatest interest to me in general. (Ever since Tessa/Scott stopped competing :sad4:.)
I do not know enough about other disciplin es to parse how TEB affected the skaters listed above... and I do not see any reason to post about their possible/likely fates when I do not know what I'm talking about.

Right, and in all absolute seriousness and honestly, it is not my intention to attack you or anyone else who has been in here defending Max. It is normal that people would want to talk about and defend their favorites. However, again absolutely honestly, it gets very tiresome to keep coming here and seeing the argument that basically this decision isn't fair, because Max got screwed. I'm a fan of Max- definitely not in the same league as you and karne, but I'm the opposite of you and rarely/barely follow them men, so for a man to catch my eye at all really says something, and the few men I follow I follow closely. I'm sad for Max. But I think it's important to realize that this decision doesn't only hurt him.

I also wonder (and again I truly mean this respectfully and in all total seriousness) what you and karne wanted the ISU to decide to do that would have been a viable possibility (meaning that everyone skating the LP is not a possibility, as karne has made clear that is what she wanted to happen in an ideal world- it was what I would have wanted in an ideal world too). Would you have had them just name Max to the final? If so who else just gets named and what is the criterion? I think maybe some people are misunderstanding me too and think that when I say this is fair and given the realistic possibilities this was a good decision, that I am saying I like the decision. I like it in that I think its fair and one of the best of the realistic possibilities, but am I happy about the composition of the GPF and the skaters that got hurt by this? Nope. So this question very much is sincere- given what happened, and acknowledging reality, what should the ISU have done that would actually be fairer than this?

 

[ice coverage]

Right, and in all absolute seriousness and honestly, it is not my intention to attack you or anyone else who has been in here defending Max. ... However, again absolutely honestly, it gets very tiresome to keep coming here and seeing the argument that basically this decision isn't fair, because Max got screwed. ... But I think it's important to realize that this decision doesn't only hurt him. ...

I know that you weren't attacking me. But I was and am trying to explain that my support for Max has never been a claim that he is the only TEB skater who was affected by the cancellation.

And I find it equally tiresome that others have kept repeating their opinions over and over and over in this thread -- and in the pre-decision threads.
I am not point a fingering specifically at you, tulosai, but you cannot deny that others have been extremely repetitive in posting their views.

The ISU is the governing body, and it has spoken. At this point, doesn't really matter what any of us think -- not that it ever did.

In any case, I do not think that Max got "screwed" by the ISU -- meaning I do not think that the ISU set out to make a ruling that intentionally would exclude him.
But I do think that some skaters were luckier than others that the ISU made the ruling that it did.

One thing that bugs me is that no one seems to acknowledge that Shoma is "lucky" that TEB got cancelled after the SP.
In this first international season as a senior, Shoma has never skated an SP and FS of equal magnificence within the same competition. Not at the Japan Open (FS only); not at the US Classic; not at Skate America; not at TEB (SP only).
We do not know how Shoma would have fared in the TEB FS -- with the pressure of being the leader after the SP and with the pressure of the GPF on the line. Maybe he would have done well enough in the FS to win the gold medal the old-fashioned way. Maybe not. We will never know either way.

But that is why I consider Shoma a prime example of some people being luckier than others that the ISU ruled as it did.
Shoma got his first senior GP win at 2015 TEB by skating only the SP. Max got his first GP win at 2015 Skate America by skating the SP and FS. Patrick won 2015 Skate Canada by skating the SP and FS. Same for Javi at 2015 Cup of China and 2015 Rostelecom.
(Mind you, I have nothing personal against Shoma ... just as most people do not have anything personal against Max.)

Max did not get "screwed" by the ISU -- but he was less lucky.

Sam-S was curious about the hypothetical scenario of giving the TEB skaters FS scores equal to their SBs -- an option that IMO would have been just as "fair" as the option that the ISU in fact chose. (Just as fair. Not more fair. As fair.)
In response to Sam-S's question, I crunched the numbers for the hypothetical scenario. In that scenario, Max had a very good chance of placing 6th in the post-NHK rankings. And he definitely would have placed no lower than 7th in the post-NHK rankings.

http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...PF-selection&p=1297766&viewfull=1#post1297766​

 

[Mathman]

... I haven't heard any big name moaning about it.

Indeed. I would certainly hope that every skater has a friend, teammate, parent, coach or advisor who would clap a quick hand over the skater's mouth if he started to say anything more than, "Our hearts go out to the victims of this terrible tragedy."

Can you imagine the reaction if he added, "And I lost some Grand Prix points!"

 

[Violet Bliss]

Indeed. I would certainly hope that every skater has a friend, teammate, parent, coach or advisor who would clap a quick hand over the skater's mouth if he started to say anything more than, "Our hearts go out to the victims of this terrible tragedy."

Can you imagine the reaction if he added, "And I lost some Grand Prix points!"

"...and money."

 

[Layback11]

I think that, even with the amount of people who are upset about specific skaters not making it, this was the fairest thing they could've done without having a giant logistical nightmare on their hands (I.E. rescheduling). I'm happy for the skaters it benefited and I sympathize with the skaters who lost their chances because of it, but what's done is done and arguing isn't going to change anything.
However, if a skater can be mathed* into the final, feel free to math away.

*Mathed: shown to have a possibility of making the final based on a complicated list of mathematically-calculated things that would need to happen at NHK for them to do so. I must say I greatly admire people mathy enough to work this out.

 

[Mathman]

However, if a skater can be mathed* into the final, feel free to math away.

 

[Mathman]

Sam-S was curious about the hypothetical scenario of giving the TEB skaters FS scores equal to their SBs -- an option that IMO would have been just as "fair" as the option that the ISU in fact chose. (Just as fair. Not more fair. As fair.)

No offense to Sam-Skwanch or anyone, but…deciding the winner of TEB by giving the skaters points earned in a different competition?

One thing that bugs me is that no one seems to acknowledge that Shoma is "lucky" that TEB got cancelled after the SP.

In this first international season as a senior, Shoma has never skated an SP and FS of equal magnificence within the same competition. Not at the Japan Open (FS only); not at the US Classic; not at Skate America; not at TEB (SP only).

We do not know how Shoma would have fared in the TEB FS -- with the pressure of being the leader after the SP and with the pressure of the GPF on the line. Maybe he would have done well enough in the FS to win the gold medal the old-fashioned way. Maybe not. We will never know either way.

I do not follow this argument at all. Shoma has never done this or that in the past. What possible relevance can that have to who won TEB?

Maybe he would have done well in the FS… Maybe not."

How can we possibly determine placements by maybe, maybe not? We can only go by the skating that was put on the ice in Paris. Not by maybe, maybe not.

 

[ice coverage]

No offense to Sam-Skwanch or anyone, but…deciding the winner of TEB by giving the skaters points earned in a different competition?

No more wacky than using only an SP/SD to give GP ranking points, World Standings points, and prize money.

(Not the ISU's fault about the cancellation of the free skates and FD .. but still no more wacky.)

It's just that the ISU had the authority to choose which wackiness it finds more tolerable.

 

[Violet Bliss]

No offense to Sam-Skwanch or anyone, but…deciding the winner of TEB by giving the skaters points earned in a different competition?

Yes, I originally proposed that, but not SB or PB but LP marks form a GP event attended or to be attended this current season. Hey, it would give a reasonable LP score to each TEB skater without holding another competition.

Without further participation in the discussion, I don't know if or how this idea might have developed. I'm one for accepting reality. It is what it is so just do the best with it. I knew from the beginning only the SP scores would be used but the final ISU conditions and decision are fine and workable.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

No offense to Sam-Skwanch or anyone, but…deciding the winner of TEB by giving the skaters points earned in a different competition?.

I don't think it's a good idea at all to invent results. I've maintained all along that what should determine the results is what went down on the ice. I was merely curious

I am actually surprised to say that I think the ISU did the correct thing here.

 

[Mathman]

... it would give a reasonable LP score to each TEB skater without holding another competition...

I'm one for accepting reality.

I'm sorry to be ranting on and on about this (well, not all that sorry ), but to me this is the whole problem with this discussion. Adding on a "reasonable" number of points to each skater's TEB score has no basis in "reality."

Reality is what happened on the ice in Paris. Anything else is just fantasizing. (Or "Mathing." YMMD.)

 

[ice coverage]

... I do not follow this argument at all. Shoma has never done this or that in the past. What possible relevance can that have to who won TEB?



How can we possibly determine placements by maybe, maybe not? We can only go by the skating that was put on the ice in Paris. Not by maybe, maybe not.

Reality #1:
We do not know whether Shoma would have won TEB if the free skates could have happened as originally scheduled.

Reality #2:
Based on the ISU ruling, Shoma has won TEB.

Reality #3:
2015 TEB is the first GP ever to be decided only by SP/SD.

I would and do call Shoma lucky for winning a GP without a FS. (Same for Gracie; H/D and their FD; V/T.)

Mathman, you do not have to agree with me. And I do not have to agree with you.

It makes no sense to you that I am saying what I am saying. It makes no sense to me that you fail to understand what I am saying. Stalemate.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I'm sorry to be ranting on and on about this (well, not all that sorry ), but to me this is the whole problem with this discussion. Adding on a "reasonable" number of points to each skater's TEB score has no basis in "reality."

Reality is what happened on the ice in Paris. Anything else is just fantasizing. (Or "Mathing." YMMD.)

My reality is that TEB was cancelled and the ISU decision will stand. I made a proposal in the spirit of discussion without really giving it importance in reality.

 

[sc8]

I was hoping they would allow all 1st and 2nd place finishers from each discipline at the GPF, which would expand the field to 8 or 9 (max 12, but already some multiple winners) potentially, in each discipline. That would be a great preview of worlds, assuming folks make it out of nationals. Tukt, potentially not make it, would be disappointing because I fully believe she would have climbed up to 2nd or 3rd at Bompard. While I typically support US ladies, I think that it would be a fair resolution to be more generous about inclusions.

 

[mrrice]

Australia has - and will only have, for the foreseeable future, much as I love them all - but one spot at Worlds, and only then in ladies and men. But to Four Continents, we can send more, as long as they have the scores - and there are more than two who do. You will be treated greatly to the ongoing friendly battle between Brooklee and Kailani for surpremacy; if we are even allowed to send three ladies, you would see three such elegant, eloquent ladies to do my country proud. And Brendan might land the quads and the triple Axels, but at Four Continents he can be accompanied by one of our artistic, elegant young men whom you might not otherwise see.

Four Continents is a chance for those of the little countries to show off the depth of talent that they might have. It should be looked upon with pride, not derision!

What's up with Australia and figure skating. I have only been to Australia once and it was for a very brief engagement. We sang on the steps of the Opera House for photo op. Then we took some pictures on the bridge, met some Dignitary's and left the Country. The only thing I truly remember about Australia is that is was 5000 degree's. I couldn't have imagined figure skating happening in any way.

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't consider Shoma very lucky either. Yes I suppose he "won TEB" but I'm sure Shoma would had preferred to prove himself in the FS rather than get it by default due to the SP results. Same with the others, especially Volozhsar and Trankov, who now aren't even competing to NHK this weekend.

Nor would Max or any other champion during the GP series have less respect for Shoma's skills and talent because he "only won" the SP.

Hence, I don't see the point why we would need to point out Shoma's luck (or Max's lack of it).

 

[Sackie]

Is it really going to matter in the long run. I mean for those who finish in 8th or 9th place and if they were given a bye to the GPF would it really be that great for them. I look at G/P in dance. If they were given a bye they probably still would finish in last place which would then place them that way going into worlds. If they don't go there is still that doubt and it may give them more time to work on improving their programs before worlds.
Also with SEGUIN / BILODEAU - they may make it as team # 7 but when you look at the other teams who will be there they really don't have a chance to improve on that placement. And in the big picture how important is a good placement at the GPF. Josée Chouinard even won a medal at a GPF - but she never did better than 5th at worlds and in fact that same year she didn't even make it to worlds. And Tatianna Malinina even won it one year but she only finish 4th at worlds and was usually outside the top ten. And let's not forget Emanuel Sandhu and Jeremy Abbott! Making and winning the GPF didn't do them much good.

 

[ice coverage]

I don't consider Shoma very lucky either. Yes I suppose he "won TEB" but I'm sure Shoma would had preferred to prove himself in the FS rather than get it by default due to the SP results. Same with the others, especially Volozhsar and Trankov, who now aren't even competing to NHK this weekend.

...

Hence, I don't see the point why we would need to point out Shoma's luck (or Max's lack of it).

Agree to disagree.

I understand what you are saying about Shoma being unlucky not to have a chance to prove himself in the TEB FS.
By the same token, Patrick and Max and the other TEB men are equally unlucky that they did not have a chance to show their stuff in the TEB FS.

If I were Alaine Chartrand, I might feel some irony that those who placed second in the 2015 TEB SPs/SD are getting GP ranking points, World Standing points, and prize money for second place.
Hopefully not bitterness. But irony.

 

[Mathman]

I understand what you are saying about Shoma being unlucky not to have a chance to prove himself in the TEB FS.

By the same token, Patrick and Max and the other TEB men are equally unlucky that they did not have a chance to show their stuff in the TEB FS.

I think everyone can agree with that. All of the skaters at TEB were unlucky (as were the fans) that the competition had to be curtailed.