Ivan Desyatov suspended by SafeSport

[Kris135]

You can't force people do what they don't want to do, and the assumption that a single skater can just 'switch' to ice dance is false. It is about as laughable than the premises of multiple romance novels when they just take a hockey player and put him into a pair with a suffering FS girl and they win Olympics in 3 month. To be an ice dancer, a man needs to want to ice dance, and the younger they are when they start ice dancing together, the better. It is particularly evident in how much better siblings duos do in juniors.

There is a huge number of mixed nationality teams who do fabulous work without anything untoward happening. As for Desyatov, he is nice, tall lad, so the frozen fields of Ukraine it is after deportation.

I know that some do great work that not the main problem it's the total lack of balance between the genders that creates major problems because if someone is too picky they may never find a partner to skate with.

With dance I can see some of what you say is true but in pairs has a lot of cross over skills between singles and pairs. If you have a young man that has everything but the quads and about 5'10 or taller why isn't pairs even brought up as an option for them. Every time I look they keep pulling girls out of singles to charge over and almost no boys are brought over. So it creates a situation where women have to fight over the few men that are in the discipline. When think some of the wonderful male skaters that would have been perfect fits. Wonderful spins, solid triple jumps, and good skating skills. What the harm of allowing them to explore the option? These men could have wonderful careers that last longer, many male pair skaters skate into their 30:s,then the singles ones because of the lower risk of injuries.

Also it seems that girls are getting younger in the partnered disciplines. It used be that in the partnered disciplines the skaters skewed older especially in dance where teams like Chock and Bates and their age were close to the norm. Now we have girls as young 18 being paired off dance to who ever their coach and her parents pick. The girl has to hope that they picked wisely because she may stuck with him for a long time. These international partnerships at such young ages create problems especially if the man is much older than girl in question which happens far too often for my comfort at this point. Bella an 18 year girl was encouraged most likely by her coaches to marry her partner within months of him coming over here so he could stay here apparently. Now what happens if he gets deported is she going follow him to Russia and for Russia once the ban is over. Outside of most likely not being able to compete in United States what to but top them from doing that. Nothing right now exists to stop this. I think a new rule needs to enacted which states you have 21 years old before you can form an international partnership for ISU skating competition. I know of stupid actions that 21 year olds engage in but at least they have some more life experiences to draw upon to stop being exploited by everyone else.

 

[Kris135]

What about Isabella's parents? I think they must be aware of the situation

I wonder because there was article about her and her younger sister for Hispanic Heritage Month that made no hint that she even involved with her partner beyond skating. I do not know if they knew that she was married.It seems like no one knew that her and Ivan were a couple much less married to each other. So the jury still out on that one

 

[lariko]

I know that some do great work that not the main problem it's the total lack of balance between the genders that creates major problems because if someone is too picky they may never find a partner to skate with.

With dance I can see some of what you say is true but in pairs has a lot of cross over skills between singles and pairs. If you have a young man that has everything but the quads and about 5'10 or taller why isn't pairs even brought up as an option for them. Every time I look they keep pulling girls out of singles to charge over and almost no boys are brought over. So it creates a situation where women have to fight over the few men that are in the discipline. When think some of the wonderful male skaters that would have been perfect fits. Wonderful spins, solid triple jumps, and good skating skills. What the harm of allowing them to explore the option? These men could have wonderful careers that last longer, many male pair skaters skate into their 30:s,then the singles ones because of the lower risk of injuries.

Also it seems that girls are getting younger in the partnered disciplines. It used be that in the partnered disciplines the skaters skewed older especially in dance where teams like Chock and Bates and their age were close to the norm. Now we have girls as young 18 being paired off dance to who ever their coach and her parents pick. The girl has to hope that they picked wisely because she may stuck with him for a long time. These international partnerships at such young ages create problems especially if the man is much older than girl in question which happens far too often for my comfort at this point. Bella an 18 year girl was encouraged most likely by her coaches to marry her partner within months of him coming over here so he could stay here apparently. Now what happens if he gets deported is she going follow him to Russia and for Russia once the ban is over. Outside of most likely not being able to compete in United States what to but top them from doing that. Nothing right now exists to stop this. I think a new rule needs to enacted which states you have 21 years old before you can form an international partnership for ISU skating competition. I know of stupid actions that 21 year olds engage in but at least they have some more life experiences to draw upon to stop being exploited by everyone else.

If they want to, they can. They are all fully aware of options to change to another discipline. As for women bring paired up later, I had followed FS from 2018, and women always skated in junior dance/pairs from 13 onward. Now, I am all behind limiting the age gap and not letting 23 yo men skate in junior dance/pairs. I think this is outrage and bad things waiting to happen. They said they protected the juniors by moving min age to 17 to go into seniors. But then they turn around and put the men in their twenties in the same competions as the 13 y.o. girls. Dunno what the heck they are thinking. Not to mention, it's no longer clear if we are watching the best of juniors or the worst of seniors.

As for Flores, she will get a divorce, answer for fraud or passes the responsibility onto the coaches and will fish for the next partner. Or goes on with her life. She is an American. She can do anything with her life. She is certainly not naive, unaware of laws or helpless judging by publically soliciting legal advice when Tzarevskii had his mental break down.

 

[saine]

With dance I can see some of what you say is true but in pairs has a lot of cross over skills between singles and pairs. If you have a young man that has everything but the quads and about 5'10 or taller why isn't pairs even brought up as an option for them. Every time I look they keep pulling girls out of singles to charge over and almost no boys are brought over. So it creates a situation where women have to fight over the few men that are in the discipline. When think some of the wonderful male skaters that would have been perfect fits. Wonderful spins, solid triple jumps, and good skating skills. What the harm of allowing them to explore the option? These men could have wonderful careers that last longer, many male pair skaters skate into their 30:s,then the singles ones because of the lower risk of injuries.

Because they can't make people skate disciplines that they are not interested in. They can't pull women out of singles, they have to want to do pairs. They may choose to concentrate on it because there are more opportunities than in women's singles, but no one can be forced to compete in a discipline that they do not want to compete in.

Men are free to explore the option if that is what they are interested in. Lucas Tsuyoshi Honda is one man who decided that it would be a good option for himself and it seems to be working out for him. But they have to be interested in it, I don't think a partnership would work if a man was forced to do it because he happens to be tall and can jump triples.

And there are injuries that happen for men in pairs, there are frequent back injuries since they are lifting. No discipline is injury free.

 

[TallyT]

There are less boys in the singles discipline (even in Japan, with its massively popular trio of male stars) than girls and the boys may as said not want to partner up no matter what anyone says about career opportunities. At the young age needed, they may also still believe they can master the jumps and even if they don't get them all there are skaters who may not quad but are stars anyway (Jason, and Anthony is looking like getting there, and Adam R went to the Olympics and got way more of his 15 minutes than most of the men who do quads)

 

[lariko]

I mean, the one great solution to the gender disparity is to allow Woman/Woman duos in ice dance. Great timing for it now and something new. ID can use it.

 

[theblade]

The reality of few American-born boys pursuing ice dance seriously in Junior and Senior levels has only gotten worse in the past ten years. The number of sibling and married teams is no joke, due to the perceived loyalty of such a partnership (ie. less willing to leave a brother or spouse for another partner unless due to injury or retirement).

In the US currently, there are juvenile to novice teams coming up, but the junior field has shrunk the past two seasons and podium-finishers from novice the past two years have broken up or quit. Part of the problem is that there are way more females who are willing to train the FULL hours to seriously compete at a top level than males (up to four hours of on-ice sessions Monday-Friday, plus up the three hours of off-ice six days a week). A lot of promising females end up prematurely retiring from the sport after novice/junior due to boys changing partners or quitting.

 

[lariko]

Again, women-women duos. Then tall, athletic women can also have a fruitful competitive career.

 

[moonvine]

(And by the way, people on other platforms have been calling out WASA, and even Isabella herself, in the last few days. A lot of people just have no idea about WASA and their history, because they have been low profile until recently, in contrast to IAM.)

I don’t really understand this. Do they think a barely 19 year old girl cooked up a sham marriage to an older man in order to find an ice dance partner?

 

[moonvine]

The problem why are these men moving here. I mean we know why the Russian men are moving here but why the others. There are a lot with histories and red flags that noticed in other countries and they just move on. The power imbalance is extreme between women and men. Women are totally at the mercy of men to pick them to be their partners so they can skate. That man can make or break a total career and that needs to change. Yes I know that US born and bred skaters can just as bad but the fact that women have so few choices in who they partner with in the first place is a huge part of the problem. I think anything that could increase the number of young men in these disciplines would be a great help because it could allow a girl to leave a bad partner that is showing red flags without committing career suicide. Think if Bella had more options would she have been al but forced to marry that jerk. Now her young career.ie in taters and she may never get new partner because of what happened which she had no part in. The lack of partners is what leads women to stay in partnerships that are abusive. Brigitte could not leave John without sacrificing her skating career that why she put up with the abuse for years. The coach was ultimately responsible but with so few choices she stayed in partnership that ultimately led to her death years latter from the trauma of it all. That why the gender imbalance needs to be addressed because women are at mercy of who ever wants them and even they can stand them they have to stay for the sake of their careers. Who knows what is happening behind closed doors in many of these partnerships. It scary to think what is happening. More choices for women would help a lot because it could lead to weeding out the bad apples before they damage multiple lives. There needs to be change and it has to start somewhere

Solo ice dance.

 

[jorge2912]

Bella an 18 year girl was encouraged most likely by her coaches to marry her partner within months of him coming over here so he could stay here apparently. Now what happens if he gets deported is she going follow him to Russia and for Russia once the ban is over. Outside of most likely not being able to compete in United States what to but top them from doing that. Nothing right now exists to stop this. I think a new rule needs to enacted which states you have 21 years old before you can form an international partnership for ISU skating competition. I know of stupid actions that 21 year olds engage in but at least they have some more life experiences to draw upon to stop being

If a coach encourages it to that, is as serious as that Ivan has made a fraud if police confirm its suspicion but also being fair, she isn't naive and maybe agreed with him, the problem is serious that maybe migration authorities will check to all the athletes who got married with a foreigner and perhaps will be more surprises like that.

the fault is people values. i think true love can't lie neither deny but do that just for get the citizenship and later divorce because their target was reached. that is immoral ,i don't know if Isabella will have also legal consequences according to laws because of that.

Because they can't make people skate disciplines that they are not interested in. They can't pull women out of singles, they have to want to do pairs. They may choose to concentrate on it because there are more opportunities than in women's singles, but no one can be forced to compete in a discipline that they do not want to compete in.

what happens is worldwide that no just in America, when was figure skating judge during the judging and ethic classes a teacher of ice dance said us something true "if a man is wants join to ice dance or pairs ,please be flexible and treat him very well for he don't abandon figure skating" or " have in their club a man skater ,consider him as pure gold and consider to their FSC as fortunate" also that happens in ballet and other arts disciplines that people because their lack of society culture have a wrong image of masculinity that is from decades ago and nowadays world mind changed.

I wonder because there was article about her and her younger sister for Hispanic Heritage Month that made no hint that she even involved with her partner beyond skating. I do not know if they knew that she was married.

Maybe that is one of the evidences the authorities considered ,if she don't mention her marriage on that article and maybe neither in their social networks is very strange and inusual, nobody marries and is the best day of their life and keep their marriage as secret even for their parents, isn't like Romeo and Juliet for keep hidden their love because are a conflict between Capulet and Montague families.

The problem why are these men moving here. I mean we know why the Russian men are moving here but why the others. There are a lot with histories and red flags that noticed in other countries and they just move on. The power imbalance is extreme between women and men. Women are totally at the mercy of men to pick them to be their partners so they can skate. That man can make or break a total career and that needs to change. Yes I know that US born and bred skaters can just as bad but the fact that women have so few choices in who they partner with in the first place is a huge part of the problem.

I think is easy explanation: world is getting worse with some (sorry beforehand) communist and politics that suddenly becomes their countries in dictatorships and feuds and like said the current Argentinean president Javier Milei "the migration nowadays is just for economic reasons, if there are possibilities of grow and have a better life in other country they will move to a new country". the problem is some people wouldn't accept that also must begin from very beginning when are in a new country and with such arrogance. by example (don't take as offense neither as personal) he's Russian and they are the best in the world and deny accepts that new reality and wants to keep competing in the same level as on their home country. Many migrants had to begins from scratch, is like born again and must work hard for get everyday a better life standard, work hard for have credibility, fame and adapt to a new country and new way to do things and traditions.

 

[el henry]

OK folks, loud enough for the people in back...

(with the caveat that I do not and never have practiced immigration law, although I did have brief experience with H visas and I 9 forms)

1. Immigration fraud is a federal offense investigated by the US Customs and Immigration Service. Not by a county. Not by a state.

2. Marrying for a green card, in and of itself, is NOT not not immigration fraud. Marrying someone you don't know, don't live with, know nothing about, those facts could be used to prove immigration fraud.

3. USCIS/ICE has the burden of proof to show a marriage was entered into solely to commit immigration fraud. No wink wink nudge nudge inferences.

Frankly looking up every ice dancer who was ever married to any other ice dancer is more bizarre than whatever Dave is trying to infer (wink wink nudge nudge) the marriages themselves. Shades of Aunt Joyce.... (Dave's previous gossip website)

If a complaint of abuse, assault, inappropriate behavior has been lodged against Ivan, that is more important and more relevant here.

 

[readernick]

OK folks, loud enough for the people in back...

(with the caveat that I do not and never have practiced immigration law, although I did have brief experience with H visas and I 9 forms)

1. Immigration fraud is a federal offense investigated by the US Customs and Immigration Service. Not by a county. Not by a state.

2. Marrying for a green card, in and of itself, is NOT not not immigration fraud. Marrying someone you don't know, don't live with, know nothing about, those facts could be used to prove immigration fraud.

3. USCIS/ICE has the burden of proof to show a marriage was entered into solely to commit immigration fraud. No wink wink nudge nudge inferences.

Frankly looking up every ice dancer who was ever married to any other ice dancer is more bizarre than whatever Dave is trying to infer (wink wink nudge nudge) the marriages themselves. Shades of Aunt Joyce.... (Dave's previous gossip website)

If a complaint of abuse, assault, inappropriate behavior has been lodged against Ivan, that is more important and more relevant here.

Thank you for this logical post. This forum needed it. We know almost nothing about this situation. I know speculation is normal, but it's getting too extreme. Unless you know these ice dancers personally, you really don't know what motivated them to marry or who was involved in the decision.

I have empathy for the victim/ victims in this case. I hope the truth comes out and justice is served.

As far as coaching teams go, I don't think any coaching team is perfect nor do we have evidence that any team being discussed here purposefully encouraged, covered up, or supported sexual assault . If such evidence comes to light, hopefully appropriate action will be taken.

What is clear, IMHO, is that sexual assault is far too common in figure skating and in societies all over the world. All of us need to do more to encourage appropriate boundaries in work situations especially when young people are involved.

 

[TallyT]

With all due respect, anyone who knows any 18-year-old girls at all (actually, any girls or boys of around that age) will surely grant the possibility that, even if she wasn't in love when they married, she may have thought she was. Young and old people have gotten hitched on way less. So can we stop trying to second-guess her and concentrate on the person who we have reason to think done wrong here?

(Yes, the number of teen brides as WASA is dubious to put it mildly. That's on WASA.)

(And I cannot stand Lease, so am all for looking at his posts squint-eyed. They may prove true, but I'll wait for someone else to confirm it.)

 

[Karoltyna]

Thank you for this logical post. This forum needed it. We know almost nothing about this situation. I know speculation is normal, but it's getting too extreme. Unless you know these ice dancers personally, you really don't know what motivated them to marry or who was involved in the decision.

I have empathy for the victim/ victims in this case. I hope the truth comes out and justice is served.

As far as coaching teams go, I don't think any coaching team is perfect nor do we have evidence that any team being discussed here purposefully encouraged, covered up, or supported sexual assault . If such evidence comes to light, hopefully appropriate action will be taken.

What is clear, IMHO, is that sexual assault is far too common in figure skating and in societies all over the world. All of us need to do more to encourage appropriate boundaries in work situations especially when young people are involved.

I guess will have to wait until Bella and her family decide to give a statement - at least in the matter of marriage. As of the rest, we don't need to know the details, learning about the official outcome will be enough.

 

[lariko]

I don't think we need to know anything about their marriage whatsoever. There is zero requirement for anyone to disclose the reasons why they had married someone and in most cases they have little if anything to do with some poetic, story-book romance. The important thing is that despicable criminal actions are punished and that the athletes who commit them do not compete.

 

[looper]

again, fair. there is too much unknown.

Even the term misconduct is rather vague. OSIC's term for Soerensen was "sexual misconduct", also vague, but less so

That wording is often the very same for SafeSport when they suspend or finally discipline someone.

 

[4everchan]

That wording is often the very same for SafeSport when they suspend or finally discipline someone.

I understand. However, they could use a different umbrella term specifically for sexual assault, as this is what so many people want to be changed in sports' culture. That's why I referred to OSIC, the Canadian version, where they use sexual misconduct to differentiate from other types of misconduct.

 

[looper]

SafeSport has it's own issues that are substantial and I think they have a lot of reworking to do if they are to remain relevant. We know they are understaffed, take sometimes years to make a decision and often those are overturned in arbitration. They can be weaponized, and often are by those seeking to "get" coaches banned. In short, it is a mess, that can create more issues than it claims to solve.

 

[saine]

SafeSport has it's own issues that are substantial and I think they have a lot of reworking to do if they are to remain relevant. We know they are understaffed, take sometimes years to make a decision and often those are overturned in arbitration. They can be weaponized, and often are by those seeking to "get" coaches banned. In short, it is a mess, that can create more issues than it claims to solve.

If there are people who are 'weaponizing' SafeSport processes to 'get' coaches banned, then that is a violation of the SafeSport code (here)

IX Prohibited Conduct, G: Misconduct in Reporting (page 24):

2. Intentionally Filing a False Allegation
In addition to constituting misconduct, filing a knowingly false allegation that a Participant engaged in Prohibited Conduct may violate state criminal law and civil defamation laws. Any Participant making a knowingly false allegation in a matter over which the Center exercises jurisdiction shall be subject to disciplinary action by the Center.

a. An allegation is false if the events reported did not occur, and the person making the report knows the events did not occur.

b. A false allegation is different from an unsubstantiated allegation; an unsubstantiated allegation means there is insufficient supporting evidence to determine whether an allegation is true or false. Absent demonstrable misconduct, reporting an unsubstantiated allegation alone is not grounds for a Code violation

If anyone is doing as you claim and filing false claims, then they're surely being found as having violated SafeSport by doing so.