Janet Lynn: A Measured Fall from Freedom | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Janet Lynn: A Measured Fall from Freedom

For quite a while, especially since the I-Phone has become almost universal--I've wondered about the feasibility of not only having a certified judging panel that uses the IJS system to determine the placements of the competitors, but also having an audience vote for "Best Artistic Program" of the competition.

Obviously, the audience vote would count for jack squat. But it would be a nice consolation prize for a skater who perhaps has a bad jumping day, or who hasn't been able to master big jumps yet, or for a team that experiences a massive wipe out fall and loses a lot of points--but still does an amazing program that is filled with innovative choreography that is appropriate for their music, and that moves the hearts, souls, and spirits of the audience.

The Ultimate Achievement, of course, would be for a skater/team to win both the IJS panel and the audience.

I do think it's likely that a local skater/team would win the audience panel even if they're awful at both tech and artistry! But...let's give the audience a little credit. The local skater/team always gets lots of local accolades(e.g., interviews for the local media, big crowds of friends, lots of flowers, etc., big party after the competition, etc.), so hopefully a good audience would judge fairly and be non-biased, just like the certified judges always do! :biggrin:
 
The more judges (panels), the more expensive the sport will become.

One of the problems with CoP is that many of the rinks can no longer afford to offer a local (non-qualifying) competition other than Basic Skills competitions.

The setup for an IJS competition is expensive and so are the judges.

I live in Northern Illinois near Chicago, and there are many rinks in the many suburbs and also in the small towns and cities within a 100 miles of Chicago. When my kids were growing up in the 1990s/early 2000s, many of these rinks, including the one in my small city, offered a USFSA competition for all ages. Our competition ran for 5 days (and evenings) and attracted several hundred skaters, including the Senior-level skaters from the Chicagoland area who were National competitors (e.g., Evan Lysasek). I'm guessing that at some point, Jason Brown probably entered our competition when he was a little boy!

But now--there aren't that many competitions anymore in the Chicago area, and our small city stopped offered a competition years ago and offers two Basic Skills competitions instead. We just can't afford it.

What this means is that our higher-level skaters (qualifying levels beginning with Juvenile) do not have the opportunity to do as many competitions as they used to back during the 6.0 days. And I think this hurts the sport--competition experience is necessary for skaters who have the talent to become elite skaters. It helps the skater learn how to deal with nerves and it gives them an opportunity to get noticed by judges and other coaches. And it's FUN! It's a sport, and sport means competition!

I have no solution for this problem, other than to offer an opinion that we really can't be adding still MORE expense to the sport by adding changes that would require more judges at competitions.
This is interesting. I bet it is why gymnastics uses the 10.0 system until the athletes get to elite level.
 
Five decades of Carmen (This is long, sorry about that!)

Started to think about the development of artistry in figure skating yesterday and remembered Carmen. I have been tracking use of Spanish style pieces of music over the years and Carmen is obviously the Nr 1 among all of them (though Malaguena probably comes as a surprisingly close 2nd). The performances cover about 50 years starting from 1962. Altogether close to 200 programs, most of them in the 2000s!

The first one is Don Jackson in 1962. It is amazing to hear that the same cuts are used as in the most recent Carmens. But if the music was not playing, it would be impossible to know he was skating to Carmen - the artistry has nothing to do with style or character. He does things timed to highlights and tempo in the music, but otherwise the music does not seem to inform the movement. There is a certain aesthetic to it, but the intention is not to make the movement express the emotions evoked by the music, rather to show off his jumping and steps (the spins are a bit shaky…). The special arm movements are related to making the jumps more difficult.

My favourite 1970s Carmen comes from Russia, Vladimir Kovalev in 1976. It is his SP, and it does not really get much better than this. There is a rudimentary torero costume, but the most wonderful thing is that the choreography has those Spanish dance/flamenco poses, the hints to bull fighting and all. The arm and upper body movement is just brilliant all around.

As a comparison, Linda Fratianne did also her SP to Carmen that year The sound is unfortunately off sync with the picture in this video, so the first 2A was probably intended to go with the music highlight. This really does not compare to Kovalev at all, the music could be almost anything. She does Carmen as FS in 1979–80 and won the Olys with it. Still utterly bland despite some attempts to character and style in the middle part, most of the time the movement has really nothing to do with the music (and she gets 5.9s with that!).

From the 1980s, there are not that many Carmens, but then there is The Carmen, Katarina Witt FS 1988. She had lost most of her old jumping prowess by that time but managed enough tech difficulty to keep the others behind. But the choreo and her performance are beyond comparison: style, character, and story all in 4 minutes. (And I forgive the almost 20 s standing break in the middle because she makes it worth watching.) The drama in the way she does the last minute holding the knife wound… There were altogether 4 Carmens in the women that season, but the others are really not worth mentioning.

It is hard to get excited of the remaining decades after Kovalev and Witt kind of set the standard. Most don’t get even close to those two. But some examples from the 1990s and the IJS era.

Viktor Petrenko SP 1991 Loads of crossovers, but okish style and sharpness.
Eric Millot LP 1993 Not one of his finest moments, bland choreo that could have been skated to anything. Steps set to a flamenco dancer’s steps is hardly ever a good idea, this attempt included.
Silvia Fontana LP 1996 She looks the part, had the style, but nothing special about this one.
Michelle Kwan SP 1999 This has a slightly different take on the music but ends up looking like many of her other programs. The steps set to a rhythmic clapping?/steps? are clumsy and have nothing of the stylishness that maybe was intended. She was not a great character actor or a storyteller.
Irina Slutskaya FS 2001 Generic Spanish dance style poses with getting stabbed in the end as a reminder of what this was actually about. Think she used more time prepping her jumps than develping a character.
Sasha Cohen FS 2002 The choreo tries to introduce a lyrical and almost vulnerable Carmen which is a bit funny because the music is Don Jose confessing his love to Carmen who disses him wholeheartedly afterwards. There is an attempt at style and storyline I guess, but most of the movement really has little to do with what is going on in the music. She grits her teeth together in an effort to show how sassy she is...
Evgeni Plushenko FS 2002 Am not quite sure what the choreo aims at, the Spanish dance is there here and there, but not a whole lot of it. Both step sequences are clumsy and devoid of any flare or character. He is of the old world with the first minute doing not much more than crossovers and the big jumps and with almost 20 s of standing around in the middle. If you watch Yagudin from the same season, you can easily see that his program could have been done a decade later under IJS.

Evan Lysacek FS 2007 This is probably one of the few attempts at doing a Don Jose – or so I have interpreted it. Usually, for men it is the torero who has only a minor role in the whole. Not sure if he is stabbing himself or Carmen. Evan just was not a great performer overall.
Adelina Sotnikova SP 2014 This is a risky choice, but she is good with this character. The style and attitude are there, to the point, the movement is to the music, sharp, finished. I like this better than what the 6.0 1990s legends did.
Giada Russo SP 2014 This is a junior performance with one of the rare sung soundtracks. Giada could not jump that well, but she sure has The It factor when it came to performance even as a junior. This has the style, the attitude, character and choreo that goes with the music.
Alina Zagitova FS 2018 (Around 39 min, this is the whole women’s FS.) This kind of ticks all the boxes, the style, the character, moves to the music, a sort of a storyline. All’s there on a plate, but let’s face it, Zagitova was never a performer in the true sense of the word. She made me realize for the first time what gkelly meant asking us to imagine a skater who has perfect timing of the elements, but who despite that does not really make it work on an emotional level at all.
Maxim Kovtun FS 2019 Could have been Kolyada from the same year but liked Kovtun’s costume better. Both did generic Carmens, the moves were there, but neither managed to produce anything particularly special or impressive.

Carmen has been a favorite because it gives an instant character, style, and storyline just with the music. You add a suitable costume and voilà, it’s already almost a performance even without moving at all. In most cases, some poses from Spanish dance style, sort of flamencoish feel here and there and that's a generic Carmen. However, because it is so well known, it is also difficult to get anything new out of it. For men, the aesthetics and artistry of Carmen have been very similar since the 1970s and Witt has been an influence for women since 1988. IJS has not changed the way the theme is approached, the same kind of movements are being used now as in the 6.0 era. But I do think the general development and understanding of choreography has made the match between the movement and music actually better than before.

E
 
But I do think the general development and understanding of choreography has made the match between the movement and music actually better than before.

I mildly agree, but frequently when I watch 6.0 programs I see things I like that I know just wouldn't be done anymore. I clicked on this Igor Pashkevich program(was curious because I remember he taught many including Lipnitskaya their jumps) that got posted here to the Figure Skating Videos section today:

Starting at 2:45 there's a nice little sequence of choreography that you're just not going to see anymore. And if you start at 2:00, he did a spin and the step sequence before so it goes a whole 1:30 without a jump. And he ends with a scratch spin which I rarely see anymore.
 
Five decades of Carmen (This is long, sorry about that!)

Started to think about the development of artistry in figure skating yesterday and remembered Carmen. I have been tracking use of Spanish style pieces of music over the years and Carmen is obviously the Nr 1 among all of them (though Malaguena probably comes as a surprisingly close 2nd). The performances cover about 50 years starting from 1962. Altogether close to 200 programs, most of them in the 2000s!

The first one is Don Jackson in 1962. It is amazing to hear that the same cuts are used as in the most recent Carmens. But if the music was not playing, it would be impossible to know he was skating to Carmen - the artistry has nothing to do with style or character. He does things timed to highlights and tempo in the music, but otherwise the music does not seem to inform the movement. There is a certain aesthetic to it, but the intention is not to make the movement express the emotions evoked by the music, rather to show off his jumping and steps (the spins are a bit shaky…). The special arm movements are related to making the jumps more difficult.

My favourite 1970s Carmen comes from Russia, Vladimir Kovalev in 1976. It is his SP, and it does not really get much better than this. There is a rudimentary torero costume, but the most wonderful thing is that the choreography has those Spanish dance/flamenco poses, the hints to bull fighting and all. The arm and upper body movement is just brilliant all around.

As a comparison, Linda Fratianne did also her SP to Carmen that year The sound is unfortunately off sync with the picture in this video, so the first 2A was probably intended to go with the music highlight. This really does not compare to Kovalev at all, the music could be almost anything. She does Carmen as FS in 1979–80 and won the Olys with it. Still utterly bland despite some attempts to character and style in the middle part, most of the time the movement has really nothing to do with the music (and she gets 5.9s with that!).

From the 1980s, there are not that many Carmens, but then there is The Carmen, Katarina Witt FS 1988. She had lost most of her old jumping prowess by that time but managed enough tech difficulty to keep the others behind. But the choreo and her performance are beyond comparison: style, character, and story all in 4 minutes. (And I forgive the almost 20 s standing break in the middle because she makes it worth watching.) The drama in the way she does the last minute holding the knife wound… There were altogether 4 Carmens in the women that season, but the others are really not worth mentioning.

It is hard to get excited of the remaining decades after Kovalev and Witt kind of set the standard. Most don’t get even close to those two. But some examples from the 1990s and the IJS era.

Viktor Petrenko SP 1991 Loads of crossovers, but okish style and sharpness.
Eric Millot LP 1993 Not one of his finest moments, bland choreo that could have been skated to anything. Steps set to a flamenco dancer’s steps is hardly ever a good idea, this attempt included.
Silvia Fontana LP 1996 She looks the part, had the style, but nothing special about this one.
Michelle Kwan SP 1999 This has a slightly different take on the music but ends up looking like many of her other programs. The steps set to a rhythmic clapping?/steps? are clumsy and have nothing of the stylishness that maybe was intended. She was not a great character actor or a storyteller.
Irina Slutskaya FS 2001 Generic Spanish dance style poses with getting stabbed in the end as a reminder of what this was actually about. Think she used more time prepping her jumps than develping a character.
Sasha Cohen FS 2002 The choreo tries to introduce a lyrical and almost vulnerable Carmen which is a bit funny because the music is Don Jose confessing his love to Carmen who disses him wholeheartedly afterwards. There is an attempt at style and storyline I guess, but most of the movement really has little to do with what is going on in the music. She grits her teeth together in an effort to show how sassy she is...
Evgeni Plushenko FS 2002 Am not quite sure what the choreo aims at, the Spanish dance is there here and there, but not a whole lot of it. Both step sequences are clumsy and devoid of any flare or character. He is of the old world with the first minute doing not much more than crossovers and the big jumps and with almost 20 s of standing around in the middle. If you watch Yagudin from the same season, you can easily see that his program could have been done a decade later under IJS.

Evan Lysacek FS 2007 This is probably one of the few attempts at doing a Don Jose – or so I have interpreted it. Usually, for men it is the torero who has only a minor role in the whole. Not sure if he is stabbing himself or Carmen. Evan just was not a great performer overall.
Adelina Sotnikova SP 2014 This is a risky choice, but she is good with this character. The style and attitude are there, to the point, the movement is to the music, sharp, finished. I like this better than what the 6.0 1990s legends did.
Giada Russo SP 2014 This is a junior performance with one of the rare sung soundtracks. Giada could not jump that well, but she sure has The It factor when it came to performance even as a junior. This has the style, the attitude, character and choreo that goes with the music.
Alina Zagitova FS 2018 (Around 39 min, this is the whole women’s FS.) This kind of ticks all the boxes, the style, the character, moves to the music, a sort of a storyline. All’s there on a plate, but let’s face it, Zagitova was never a performer in the true sense of the word. She made me realize for the first time what gkelly meant asking us to imagine a skater who has perfect timing of the elements, but who despite that does not really make it work on an emotional level at all.
Maxim Kovtun FS 2019 Could have been Kolyada from the same year but liked Kovtun’s costume better. Both did generic Carmens, the moves were there, but neither managed to produce anything particularly special or impressive.

Carmen has been a favorite because it gives an instant character, style, and storyline just with the music. You add a suitable costume and voilà, it’s already almost a performance even without moving at all. In most cases, some poses from Spanish dance style, sort of flamencoish feel here and there and that's a generic Carmen. However, because it is so well known, it is also difficult to get anything new out of it. For men, the aesthetics and artistry of Carmen have been very similar since the 1970s and Witt has been an influence for women since 1988. IJS has not changed the way the theme is approached, the same kind of movements are being used now as in the 6.0 era. But I do think the general development and understanding of choreography has made the match between the movement and music actually better than before.

E
IDK if you are just looking at Carmen with singles skaters but V/M had one of the best Carmen programs ever.
Also, I'll disagree with you on Lysacek. He could bring the drama and big skating when he needed to, esp towards the end of his eligible career.
 
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I, for one, wish that some pieces of music would be retired. I accept that they're easy to choreograph to, I accept that a skater can interpret them, but there are so many beautiful pieces of music out there that would acccomplish the same result. I always feel that choreographers or coaching teams are just being lazy by bringing back those war horses. I didn't like Lysacek's Carmen. I didn't like the snake around his neck. I was glad he won the OGM for the US but............
 
I, for one, wish that some pieces of music would be retired. I accept that they're easy to choreograph to, I accept that a skater can interpret them, but there are so many beautiful pieces of music out there that would acccomplish the same result. I always feel that choreographers or coaching teams are just being lazy by bringing back those war horses. I didn't like Lysacek's Carmen. I didn't like the snake around his neck. I was glad he won the OGM for the US but............
Lysacek's program with the snake around his neck was Scheherazade, NOT Carmen lol. He skated Carmen way back in 07.
 
IDK if you are just looking at Carmen with singles skaters but V/M had one of the best Carmen programs ever.
Also, I'll disagree with you on Lysacek. He could bring the drama and big skating when he needed to, esp towards the end of his eligible career.

I am not particularly interested in pairs and ice dance, I admit. I have collected the data for both from the 2000s onwards, but have not had the energy to get into trying to find performances from the earlier periods. But here we agree - if I would have had to post a fave ice dance Carmen, that one by V/M would probably be at the top of my list.

On Lysacek, we just have to agree to disagree. In my mind, he tried hard but never really reached a good performance level.

I mildly agree, but frequently when I watch 6.0 programs I see things I like that I know just wouldn't be done anymore. I clicked on this Igor Pashkevich program(was curious because I remember he taught many including Lipnitskaya their jumps) that got posted here to the Figure Skating Videos section today:

Starting at 2:45 there's a nice little sequence of choreography that you're just not going to see anymore. And if you start at 2:00, he did a spin and the step sequence before so it goes a whole 1:30 without a jump. And he ends with a scratch spin which I rarely see anymore.

Thanks for that - he was not bad for a 1990s male skater (most of them made me want to cry out of despair when I went through the Worlds top 5s). The section you pointed put was the way he used the extra time most of which now goes into spins and steps. Most others would have chosen a more stationary take on building the choreo/character/having a break. He also does what quite a few men did at that time, doing a lot of choreo and gesturing right in front of the judges. Although Pashkevich has seemingly a lot of choreo in that program, it is still far from integrating the elements seamlessly into a whole. The big jumps are preceded by mostly just crossovers and the preparations don't have much relevance to the theme. The choreo happens mostly in isolated bits and pieces here and there.

This ofc happens these days as well, because not everyone is technically so good that they can for example jump easily from steps etc. Just watch for example Denis Ten or Florent Amodio. Both were top skaters of their time, but not that good with their jumping. This leads into choreography including interesting stuff paused by lulls when they go for the big jumps. And that is also what Pashkevich does, interesting details, but the whole is so and so.

That kind of choreographed section as Pashkevich did could be done now as a choreo sequence IMO. But the fashion is to focus on showy signature moves (like Shoma's cantilever, Hanyu's hydroblading etc) instead of really trying to think of ways to always make choreography that would properly reflect the music and add to the interpretation meaningfully. And that happened also in 6.0 when that extra time was used standing in one place and gesturing...

E
 
Forgot to put this in my previous post, but idec kindly sent me a link to this blog post on Carmen programs. The author is missing about a hundred more Carmen programs - my list with that criteria contains now about 200 and that is without trying to find the early pairs and dance programs (pre 2000 when the wikipedia entries start to contain program info)...

But my general observations are much the same as in that blog which also offers a lot of nice (and even some funny) statistics.

Despite my general disinterest in pairs and ice dance, I have to comment on Krylova/Ovsiannikov whose Carmen FD from 1997-8 I have stumbled upon. It is a kind of a modern choreographical take on Carmen and in my eyes, totally unintentionally hilarious from the first moment to the last. They try so hard, that it turns into a farce instead of a drama.

E
 
I was angered by Janet's article at the time at because it felt like she was very dismissive of all the feats that skaters were achieving: she disparaged difficult spins, difficult jumps and even difficult step sequences. I didn't realise the article was written in 2011 until someone pointed it out and that means that Janet's criticism was not due to the recent quadsters but spurred by the likes of Yuna, Mao and Carolina. Which makes even less sense to me
It's probably best if you are making assumptions about Janet Lynn's motivations and assertions in the article that you ask her directly for further clarification, rather than making continued questionable assumptions.

IMO, from closely reading and contemplating Lynn's words, and based upon my own perceptions from following the sport, Lynn is in no way looking down on nor disrespecting skaters. She's clearly concerned with the overall direction of the sport. She also speaks directly and succinctly about the fact that the sport's history and evolution as well as its basic fundamentals and skill foundations, are inadequately taught and ineffectively considered under the IJS system (as it existed when the article was written). Moreover, Lynn is concerned about the prevalence of serious injuries in the sport.

As noted, in 2011, the sport was at a different point in the IJS journey. If you read earlier posts in this thread carefully, there's clear discussion that involves reasonable assessments of Lynn's valid concerns.
 
IMO, from closely reading and contemplating Lynn's words, and based upon my own perceptions from following the sport, Lynn is in no way looking down on nor disrespecting skaters. She's clearly concerned with the overall direction of the sport. She also speaks directly and succinctly about the fact that the sport's history and evolution as well as its basic fundamentals and skill foundations, are inadequately taught and ineffectively considered under the IJS system (as it existed when the article was written). Moreover, Lynn is concerned about the prevalence of serious injuries in the sport.

You probably weren't around or paying attention when Janet Lynn came out against Katarina Witt in Calgary saying she is bad for the sport with her "over-athletic legs". Janet Lynn has been very critical of people who don't skate like her apparently. She also was AGAINST the short program which in all seriousness was created JUST FOR HER. Janet Lynn has always been against the evolution of skating. She didn't like the short program because there were REQUIRED elements, that, yes Janet, you were being MEASURED BY. She liked to say "God tells me what to skate, not the judges". So she bombed the first SP in history. I really don't take what Janet Lynn has to say very seriously. She was a beautiful skater, but in no way a good ambassador for the sport, IMO. Let her skating speak for her. Her words are meaningless. And bitchy IMO.
 
^^ Hmmm, no I don't have full detailed knowledge about Lynn in terms of her biases and prejudices. I have heard many critical things said about her, especially in terms of her conservative views politically, and regarding disagreement with her judging behavior when she served on judging panels.

Still, ill-conceived comments by her and dislike of her stances, personality, and judging career, does not render everything she says in the 2011 article as 'meaningless.'
 
Whatever in fugure skating was relevant in 2011 is absolutely irrelevant in 2021.
IMO, your viewpoint is rather dismissive, and takes into account nothing about the fact that the evolution of a sport necessarily means a connection to the past. Those who don't wish to understand historical trajectories and connections between the past and the present, especially in regard to solving the sport's pressing problems, well, so be it. This type of blind (throw the baby out with the bath water) approach, which can be seen over the years in much of the decision-making by the ISU, is in large part the reason why the sport of figure skating currently faces so many complicated, unresolved problems.
 
Whatever in fugure skating was relevant in 2011 is absolutely irrelevant in 2021.
Do you really mean this? I don't understand. To me, all history of a sport is important. I don't have to agree with someone who wrote a feature in 2011, but turning it into meaningless is another thing altogether. The ISU didn't change the IJS rules regarding BV's and step sequences for no reason. There will definitely be other tweaks, and perhaps they will look back to what someone said in 2011. Not everything, of course not, but she did put forward a few serious points that still are worthwhile to look at. Whoever she is, whatever her political viewpoints (which wouldn't count for much in other parts of the world probably) or even her judging prejudices. I may not like her as a person, but that doesn't take away that she put forward some valid points that still are meaningful today. Not all of her points. And I won't deny I dislike her stance towards certain skaters. It's a bit like for a reader to not really liking certain authors for their personality but still enjoying what they write.
 
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You probably weren't around or paying attention when Janet Lynn came out against Katarina Witt in Calgary saying she is bad for the sport with her "over-athletic legs". Janet Lynn has been very critical of people who don't skate like her apparently. She also was AGAINST the short program which in all seriousness was created JUST FOR HER. Janet Lynn has always been against the evolution of skating. She didn't like the short program because there were REQUIRED elements, that, yes Janet, you were being MEASURED BY. She liked to say "God tells me what to skate, not the judges". So she bombed the first SP in history. I really don't take what Janet Lynn has to say very seriously. She was a beautiful skater, but in no way a good ambassador for the sport, IMO. Let her skating speak for her. Her words are meaningless. And bitchy IMO.
Hmm... sounds like she didn't like the fact that skating is a sport 😅
 
Hmm... sounds like she didn't like the fact that skating is a sport 😅
When she was competing, Janet loved the fact that it was a sport. She is the reason I started watching the sport of figure skating. (y)

she didn’t make the podium in one WC in France (I forget the year, too lazy to look:biggrin:) and the crowd clapped so loudly that they brought her out for a bow during the medal ceremony. That’s how popular she was.

I have no idea what her thoughts were or were not later on the sport, other than these snippets reposted here, so I can’t comment on that one way or another.

but as was alluded, if you are watching a SP today, you have Janet Lynn (and Toller) to thank and/ or blame. Jumping another jump, it happens, and will always happen. Adding an entirely new and different program: now *that’s* influence.
 
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