Japan Open Competitors Announced

[chuckm]

But Bradie and Gabby are nearly the same age (born within a month of each other). So I think it's unfair to hold it against Gabby that she's been a senior for longer and has done more. She has actually accomplished more than Bradie, at the same age, unless you value a GP medal above a world one. You also mention that Bradie won bronze in the Olympic team event but ignore the fact that Gabby won gold in that same event. (Edited to add: you also left out Gabby's Worlds medal.) Selective memory much?

My post was responding to everchan's post---which I quoted, and which mentioned Gabby's OT gold. And I did mention Gabby's World medal: "Gabby competed at her fourth Worlds before winning a medal"---and that's in my post which you quoted.

Yes, Bradie and Gabby are pretty much the same age. But it is MUCH harder to get on the World team in the US than it is in Canada because the competition in the US is much stiffer. Consider that at the Olympics, the lowest of the 3 US ladies finished 11th; the lowest Canadian lady was 25th. At Worlds, the lowest US lady was 12th (and she was the second alternate); the lowest Canadian lady was 25th.

Gabby was able to compete at Worlds (13th) and Olympics (17th) in 2014, a year when Bradie was 4th at US Junior Nationals. Bradie won the 2015 US Junior championship and made it to 2016 and 2017 Senior Nationals. She was 6th in 2016 but then suffered a serious back injury and was 9th in 2017. She won the 2018 US Championship.

In the US, 2013-2016, to get to Worlds, a skater had to make top two; 2017-2018, top three. Some skaters finishing 4-5 were able to go to 4CC if one or more of the top 3 declined to skate there in a non-Olympic year. Otherwise, if age-eligible, the only ISU championship available to top 6-9 skaters was JW. Bradie went to JW in 2016 (11th) and 2017 (7th).

Bradie's first senior competition ever was the 2016 Tallinn Trophy Challenge where she won a bronze medal, despite her back injury. She didn't do another senior international competition until Philadelphia 2017, which she won. It was quite a huge shock for Bradie to win a medal at Skate America, win the US Championship, and then have her next competition at the Olympics, having never competed at a senior ISU Championship event.

Also note that Gabby hasn't undergone a major growth spurt the way Bradie has. When Bradie won her Junior title she was under 5' tall. She grew 6 inches in less than two years to become the tall, leggy skater she is today.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Consistency + technical ability + potential. Tennell was more consistent than Daleman this season. Though Daleman has higher jumps and less URs issues, Tennell has an harder tech content in both programs and execute her content more cleanly most of the time. They are both national champs but have room to grow artistically an technically. I can see them, both (not just Daleman or Tennell), fight for big medals next seasons with more consistency.
Now you are free to explain why Daleman is also superior by these criteria.

As far as technical ability goes, Daleman does have higher jumps and less UR issues. But Daleman has much greater ability to engage the audience and performance whereas Tennell is simply nice to watch. She's kinda like a Polina Edmunds to me - very classic clean skater and consistency but no X factor.

It's also kinda hard to compare the two when they haven't had a similar career path and they have markedly different styles. It would be like comparing Higuchi to Wagner. Daleman is a historically energetic, aggressive skater whereas (based on just one season as a sample size) Tennell is solid and pleasant to watch but not exciting as Daleman is. That's why if Tennell can get invited to a fluff event that's partially supposed to be for entertainment purposes (more than other competitions), a skater like Daleman should be able to.

 

[skylark]

In the US, 2013-2016, to get to Worlds, a skater had to make top two; 2017-2018, top three. Some skaters finishing 4-5 were able to go to 4CC if one or more of the top 3 declined to skate there in a non-Olympic year. Otherwise, if age-eligible, the only ISU championship available to top 6-9 skaters was JW. Bradie went to JW in 2016 (11th) and 2017 (7th).

Almost correct, but not quite. Ashley and Gracie came in 5th and 6th at 2013 Worlds. So 3 US ladies were able to compete in Worlds from 2014=2018.
Remember Polina? In fact, at Worlds 2015, Gracie, Ashley and Polina placed 4th, 5th, and 8th. So counting ANY two of those results would have resulted in 3 spots for the next worlds.

To summarize:

2013 - Ashley and Gracie earned three spots for US ladies
2014 - Gracie and Ashley earned 3
2015 - Gracie and Ashley earned 3
2016 - Ashley and Gracie earned 3
2017 - Karen and Ashley earned 3

2018 - ... but Bradie came in 6th, and Mirai 10th, so 2 spots with plenty room to spare.

 

[yume]

As far as technical ability goes, Daleman does have higher jumps and less UR issues. But Daleman has much greater ability to engage the audience and performance whereas Tennell is simply nice to watch. She's kinda like a Polina Edmunds to me - very classic clean skater and consistency but no X factor.

It's also kinda hard to compare the two when they haven't had a similar career path and they have markedly different styles. It would be like comparing Higuchi to Wagner. Daleman is a historically energetic, aggressive skater whereas (based on just one season as a sample size) Tennell is solid and pleasant to watch but not exciting as Daleman is. That's why if Tennell can get invited to a fluff event that's partially supposed to be for entertainment purposes (more than other competitions), a skater like Daleman should be able to.

Being able to engage the audience and performance have nothing to do with technique criteria.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

My post was responding to everchan's post---which I quoted, and which mentioned Gabby's OT gold. And I did mention Gabby's World medal: "Gabby competed at her fourth Worlds before winning a medal"---and that's in my post which you quoted.

Yes, Bradie and Gabby are pretty much the same age. But it is MUCH harder to get on the World team in the US than it is in Canada because the competition in the US is much stiffer. Consider that at the Olympics, the lowest of the 3 US ladies finished 11th; the lowest Canadian lady was 25th. At Worlds, the lowest US lady was 12th (and she was the second alternate); the lowest Canadian lady was 25th.

Gabby was able to compete at Worlds (13th) and Olympics (17th) in 2014, a year when Bradie was 4th at US Junior Nationals. Bradie won the 2015 US Junior championship and made it to 2016 and 2017 Senior Nationals. She was 6th in 2016 but then suffered a serious back injury and was 9th in 2017. She won the 2018 US Championship.

In the US, 2013-2016, to get to Worlds, a skater had to make top two; 2017-2018, top three. Some skaters finishing 4-5 were able to go to 4CC if one or more of the top 3 declined to skate there in a non-Olympic year. Otherwise, if age-eligible, the only ISU championship available to top 6-9 skaters was JW. Bradie went to JW in 2016 (11th) and 2017 (7th).

Bradie's first senior competition ever was the 2016 Tallinn Trophy Challenge where she won a bronze medal, despite her back injury. She didn't do another senior international competition until Philadelphia 2017, which she won. It was quite a huge shock for Bradie to win a medal at Skate America, win the US Championship, and then have her next competition at the Olympics, having never competed at a senior ISU Championship event.

Also note that Gabby hasn't undergone a major growth spurt the way Bradie has. When Bradie won her Junior title she was under 5' tall. She grew 6 inches in less than two years to become the tall, leggy skater she is today.

Okay using Austman's 25th at her first Worlds isn't exactly fair. Yes the US has greater calibre skaters overall but do not forget that Daleman and Osmond have achieved their medals on the World level, irrespective of how the rest of the field is. It would be like trying to diminish Kim or Kostner's accolades as easy to get because they have not much home competition -- they still had to bring it internationally and there's no changing the fact that 2 Canadians medaled at Worlds in one year and a Canadian woman is the reigning World Champion.

The US ladies are also really volatile where one could be on top and then the next day be behind - this has somewhat to do with the national field but also internationally not many US ladies have staying power - Canada has won 3 Ladies medals at Worlds in the past decade, including a World Champion - the US has won 1. If the depth of US ladies were so much stronger, shouldn't all their best ladies be consistently beating out Canada's best ladies?

That's besides the point though - I think Daleman and Tennell are both unique superb skaters and have different things to bring to the table to a competition like Japan Open.

 

[NanaPat]

Just a few points chuckm:

- if you're making a list of two skaters' achievements for the sake of comparison, you shouldn't exclude one skater's best results. Not if you want to be taken seriously.

- it's easier to be consistent over one season than five. Ask Elizaveta Tuktamysheva.

- in emphasizing Bradie's first-season status, you seemed to be implying "by the time she's Gabby's age, she'll have many more titles than Gabby has now". In truth, by the time she's Gabby's age (now) she is 6th at Worlds (a whopping 3 points ahead of Gabby in 7th). That's a very promising start to her Senior career, but is not overwhelmingly superior, as you seem to imply.

- I don't know what the point of all the talk about how much harder it is to get on the US team. Are you trying to imply that if only Bradie had been able to go to Worlds in 2017 she would have taken that bronze medal, instead of Gabby? IF USFS had believed that, they would have SENT her to Worlds, instead of 3 of the 7 ladies who finished ahead of her at US Nationals.

 

[4everchan]

this is Gabby's answer to all of this

 

[yume]

To come back to the topic, i hope that Mao will take part if Mura don't want to. Even if she lands only 3 triples, no problem.

 

[chuckm]

Maybe they just didn't want to go.......

 

[LucyH]

It depends how you look at the field.

If i were a Canadian aspiring lady, I would be worried about trying to even get out of Canada...because the top 2 are world medallsts and very strong top ten contenders at world, if not top 5. In the USA, the field is much deeper but not at the very top. How many medals have they achieved at worlds/olympics in the last decade? 1... Ashley's in 2016. Canada

Joannie 2009, worlds, 2010, OGames
Gabby, 2017 worlds
Kaetlyn 2017-2018 worlds, 2018 OGames...

I am not counting team event... SO ... USA 1 medal. Canada 6 and it's not like there was one star collecting them all... 3 skaters contributed to that tally...

So, in that sense, it is normal to wonder why Gabby and Kaetlyn have never gone to Japan Open... so we are back to square one. (we suspect they may have been invited but we don't know for sure... )

Part of the reason is likely International recognition / popularity. Although as you correctly pointed out the US ladies have not achieved much besides Wagner's silver at Boston Worlds in the last decade, I would say the names Gracie Gold / Ashley Wagner are more recognized. And they also were staples on the Sr. GP circuit which is where a lot of International audiences see the competitors as not everyone can make Olympics every 4 years or even worlds' every year. For example in that same period (last decade) the Canadian ladies have only won two medals at the GPF (Rochette's bronze in 2004-5 and Kaetlyn's bronze in 2017-2018) whereas Ashley medalled in 2012 through 2015 GPF so the name recognition as something to do with it...

 

[Spirals for Miles]

It depends how you look at the field.

If i were a Canadian aspiring lady, I would be worried about trying to even get out of Canada...because the top 2 are world medallsts and very strong top ten contenders at world, if not top 5. In the USA, the field is much deeper but not at the very top. How many medals have they achieved at worlds/olympics in the last decade? 1... Ashley's in 2016. Canada

Joannie 2009, worlds, 2010, OGames
Gabby, 2017 worlds
Kaetlyn 2017-2018 worlds, 2018 OGames...

I am not counting team event... SO ... USA 1 medal. Canada 6 and it's not like there was one star collecting them all... 3 skaters contributed to that tally...

So, in that sense, it is normal to wonder why Gabby and Kaetlyn have never gone to Japan Open... so we are back to square one. (we suspect they may have been invited but we don't know for sure... )

Maybe the Japan Open doesn’t want a repeat of what happened with Gracie and so will try to invite consistent free skate skaters. It would certainly explain why Tennell was invited over Daleman

 

[cohkaix]

To come back to the topic, i hope that Mao will take part if Mura don't want to. Even if she lands only 3 triples, no problem.

...Mao-chan? no, not this year...besides, once her tour has started and has been going on well, there's simply no reason for her to go back to ice shows for commercial purposes. Mura will be a good choice though, or praying that Mura will be invited and ask him to skate to Mao's 'Bells of Moscow'....that will be even better!

 

[4everchan]

fair enough... why provide the best skaters to a fluff event? let's provide the most popular ones...

 

[4everchan]

Maybe the Japan Open doesn’t want a repeat of what happened with Gracie and so will try to invite consistent free skate skaters. It would certainly explain why Tennell was invited over Daleman

nobody knows if Tennell was invited over Daleman... nobody even knows if Kaetlyn was invited either...

what we know :

Whether or not Kaetlyn has been invited, she cannot go because she has another commitment.

Bradie Tennell is one of two North American confirmed skaters.

The rest is pure speculation

 

[sheetz]

There are any number of reasons why skaters might receive invitations, many of which have little to do with their international results. On one hand they want to invite skaters who are popular and will attract fans, but at the same time they don't want the foreign teams to be so strong that the Japanese team can't win.

 

[BillNeal]

The third Canadian lady didn't qualify for the free skate of the two biggest competitions. That should end the discussion about the depth of that field.

At least Canada has qualified 3 ladies for two seasons in a row now.

In the past two quads, post-Rochette and Phaneuf, the Canadian women have gradually risen up the ranks, going from a low of one entry in 2012 and 2013, increasing to two entries for 2014-2016, and then earning a medal of every colour in the past two seasons. And I anticipate more success as we approach Montreal Worlds.

 

[BillNeal]

Also, another thing to note, Canada has around 1/4 of the population of Japan or Russia and 1/9 of the population of the U.S. Even though there are many factors that come into play in FS, we have an impressive amount of depth proportionally.

 

[Seren]

I like both Gabby and Bradie. As long as I never hear French Carmen or Cinderella ever again.

As to why Bradie was picked- all we can do is speculate. I don’t think it’s as interesting as we are making it out to be.

 

[moriel]

I like both Gabby and Bradie. As long as I never hear French Carmen or Cinderella ever again.

As to why Bradie was picked- all we can do is speculate. I don’t think it’s as interesting as we are making it out to be.

Bradie makes sense - they have quite a history of inviting Americans, so my guess is that there is some sponsorship or TV stuff behind it.

 

[Mango]

Patrick did the Japan Open. Both the U.S. and Canadian skaters do Challengers. Karen, Mirai, and Nathan each did the U.S. Classic last year and the Japan Open.

Patrick has done 1 Challenger Series event his entire career He's the absolute worst example to cite.

Skate Canada doesn't send its top athletes to US International Classic. Nor do they send skaters to Lombardia Trophy, the other early Challenger Series event. Canada's top skaters go to ACI, Nebelhorn, and/or Finlandia. All of which are closer in date to or conflicting with Japan Open. It does not leave much time to do things before the GP series. There are always people changing their costumes, music, and choreography so they need that time.

Also, another thing to note, Canada has around 1/4 of the population of Japan or Russia and 1/9 of the population of the U.S. Even though there are many factors that come into play in FS, we have an impressive amount of depth proportionally.

Bill get outta here with this reasonable discussion. You can't expect people to think about population size!