JGP Volvo Cup

[nadster]

I also think that the Quebec teams that went to Lake Placid instead of Minto competition did themselves a dis-service as skate canada has seemed to choose most of their assignments from Minto. If the Quebec teams had gone to Minto and were above the B.C teams and Bent/Mckeen, they would be getting the assignments now. The exception of course of the Hasagawas and Poulin/Servant who were pre-chosen because of their placements at nationals last year. I also think that Orford/Williams have a really good chance of making the junior grand prix final. They should likely win JGP Australia and will medal at their second assignment. I agree with NorthernDancers is saying Orford/Williams have the easiest event of the year in Australia but they medalled on the circuit last year and are a very good team (fast, strong, consistent) so I think they will do well anywhere they go.

It is too bad if teams are being punished for going to Lake Placid. The fact is that the US association does tremendous writeups on the top teams at Lake Placid ( even if they are not American ). So getting a writeup there gives you a little bit of good reputation internationally. The other thing that helps is that the Lake Placid field tends to be more international in nature so good results there help you more on the international stage.

 

[colleen o'neill]

nadster..thanks for clarifying that. I didn't really think SC was favouring O/W unreasonably , and I'm glad to have it straight in my mind how it all works.

I know O/W will have to have a new SD for nationals ( which in itself is a challenge ) and when I say jockeying for position , I mean just that ... how close can they come to R/H and H/G , both of whom have less than ideal programs , IMO... G/P will only have 6 mos. under their belts and won't be all that they can be just yet ( etc, etc.). So if O/W's FD is as good as some have reported, they'd have a chance to firmly establish themselves as " in the mix " at the Sr. level.

The Hasegawas will , of course, also be trying to make the best possible showing ... but if I'm not mistaken , they could stay at Jr. for another year , if they choose ? ( He was born May 20 / 92 )

 

[NorthernDancers]

Will Orford/Williams skate Senior at Nationals this season? Or just skate Junior all season, and get sent to worlds based on their rankings through the JGP season? It would be a tough task to learn a whole new SD, as well as extend the time on their FD this year. With the arrival of the SD, I thought that pretty much stops the jumping back and forth between Senior domestically, and Junior internationally.

 

[colleen o'neill]

:think:

Carification time, anyone ?..I haven't read anything to the contrary about Jrs. competing as Srs. at National competitions , especially those who have to move up next yr., like Orford / Williams.It may be tougher for them now , but wouldn't the alternative leave them as SRs. without any Sr. National ranking for the year ahead ?

It's not as if couples have been hopping back and forth at random , like the terrible GP/ JGP setup that was burning skaters out, before ( see Dennis Ten ), but Nationals sets them up for the next competitive year.

 

[mskater93]

There are many skaters in the US who skate domestically as seniors but internationally as juniors. I would assume it would be the same in Canada.

 

[nadster]

I am pretty sure Orford/Williams will compete senior at nationals this year. Considering they are reigning junior national champions they have nothing to gain and everything to lose competing junior at nationals again.

Chances are they will struggle a lot with the senior SD in particular as they would not have had the chance to compete it all season ( that is assuming they make the JGPF which at this point looks like a safe assumption).

A reasonable goal is to be competitive with the likes of Ralph/Hill. If the FD scores are similar to Ralph/Hill, then they probably would be the top team on the Nebelhorn/Skate Canada track next year.

 

[NorthernDancers]

Interesting. Maybe it is better to just focus on doing the very best for Worlds and not worrying about a brand new program plus another part of a new program. Jumping to Senior domestically and staying Junior internationally makes a whole lot of sense for mens, ladies and pairs where the amount of change between Junior and Senior is minimal. It used to be fine, although still difficult for many, when the OD was interchangeable between Junior and Senior, and only the FD needed extending. The compulsories where relegated to a minor role, and most teams at this level know the patterns to Junior and Senior dances. With the SD model, it's wholesale change for dancers, and would be really tough, and perhaps a distraction with no apparent benefit. If they focus on improving and growing as Juniors, and win a good placement for Canada internationally, there will be more spots for more teams next year on the JGP circuit. To me, that should be Skate Canada's priority. I don't think previous year senior results determine who goes to Nebelhorn/Skate Canada. I'm just thinking about how Islam/Paul moved right into international assignments in their first year as seniors domestically. And Arnold/Trojek earned a spot to Nebelhorn last year based on their great showing in the Summer competitions. I think it matters more how they improve and grow and develop their skills, without distractions, and how they place internationally as Juniors. Then if they place well in the Summer competitions at Senior, their Junior ranking may mean much more in Senior assignments as well. I count 16 teams, without any Juniors skating up, at Senior this year. There's the first group that Orford/Williams simply are not good enough to beat. Then there are quite a number of teams - maybe about 6 or 7 - that will likely chase for position in the middle. Unless they can win that middle group, which is doubtful with brand new programs just for Senior nationals, there is no benefit to them. It might actually hurt them. However, making the best possible Junior programs and medaling at Junior Worlds will mean a lot for Canada next year, and will help their reputation as they move into Senior.

 

[colleen o'neill]

But they would still be going to JR. World's regardless of the outcome of Sr.Nationals , and I'm sure that any couple who finds themselves in that position will be sure to keep polishing their Jr. programs as well , so there's no reason to think that they wouldn't be able to secure a good situation for next yr.'s Jrs.

Since our Nebelhorn entries this yr in dance are H/G and R/H , I think it's reasonable to assume that SC does take the previous yr.'s SR. National placement into account. It can't just be coincidence.

In what way and for whom would it be fair for O/W (or any couple in their position) to have to become Srs. , but Sr's with no ranking in 2012 ? Who would that benefit ?

The SD situation does complicate matters , but the skaters really have no choice but to dig deep and carry on. After all, IIRC the SD will be up for re-assessment at the next congress. ( am I right ?) So it may be something entirely different in 2013.The difficulties it creates this year may well be removed. The skaters can't be expected to hold themselves back for something that may be a passing fancy.

I don't think O/W would necessarily have to win the middle group at Nationals to do themselves some good. As nadster points out , they probably only have to come close to the current 5th or 6th teams in the FD. And if a team feels they have a reasonable chance to do that , why should they not try ? ( Don't forget , they train all the time with one of those teams, and probably have a pretty realistic view of their comparative abilities. )

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Yeah, the switch to SD from OD really does change things. Both Virtue/Moir and Crone/Poirier skated as seniors nationally the years they did juniors internationally (hell, V/M won bronze at 4CC before World Junior gold), and virtually our entire world junior team last season competed at the senior level nationally (Rogozine, Firus, Najarro, Charboneau, Jones/Gaskell). We didn't see it last year, but Spanish team of Hurtado/Diaz did junior on the GP series, junior Worlds, Europeans, and Senior Worlds, so it's not impossible. And keep in mind that was with the Golden Waltz (or as Alex Shibutani dubbed it, "the really hard waltz") as the SD steps - the Rhumba is easier.

That stated, learning an entirely new dance takes time away from practicing the old one, and they need to skate at World juniors (presumably), so risking it seems wierd - keeping in my they'd have to create a new step sequence for the no-touching circular step. A great result at World Juniors (top five) > a mediocre result (lower than sixth) at senior Nationals. I'll be interested, though, seeing which way they head.

 

[colleen o'neill]

/\ Which is why I'll be glued to YouTube Thursday and Friday evening..especially for the FD , which is the one I think must be competitive with Sr. programs.

The thing is , I thought I read (somewhere ) that Canadian Srs. was part of their plan. ..Well ,I can't find the reference..(naturally :disapp..so, I don't know if that would have been contingent on JGP results , or (possibly) pure speculation....and plans can always change.

At the same time I always think it's wrong to suggest that skaters make important decisions based on what might be best for other skaters....because ,on the other side of the "taking one for the team" stream of thought, it might seem unfair to the juniors currently behind them if they were to compete nationally at Jr , when they'll be ageing out , thus possibly depriving someone else of a title. I don't think there's a solution that would be perfect for everyone.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Thanks ,valentine ( it may have been a comment to that effect that I read...can't remember )...But Thomas will turn 21 in April of 2012 , doesn't that age them out for the 2012-2013 competitive yr ? If so, everybody's rules are pushing them.

 

[Blink]

INTERNATIONAL SKATING UNION
CONSTITUTION and GENERAL REGULATIONS 2010
as accepted by the 53rd Ordinary Congress June 2010

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-203191-220414-166536-0-file,00.pdf

Rule 108
2. Age limits for Single & Pair Skating / Ice Dance
c) in International Junior Competitions and ISU Junior Championships a Junior is a Skater who has met the following requirements before July 1st preceding these Events:
i) has reached at least the age of thirteen (13);
ii) has not reached the age of nineteen (19) for Ladies and Men in singles competition; and
iii) has not reached the age of nineteen (19) for Ladies and the age of twenty-one (21) for Men in Pair Skating and Ice Dance competition.

 

[Blink]

2.3 RESTRICTIONS TO ENTRY (Rule 5403)
(1) JUNIOR NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS:
SKATE CANADA OFFICIAL RULES AND REGULATIONS (TECHNICAL HANDBOOK)
COMPETITIVE PROGRAM PAGE 5000 - 11
(a) COMPETING IN THE SAME EVENT DISCIPLINE: No one shall compete in the same discipline (Singles, Pairs, Dance) in the same event (Juvenile, Pre-Novice, Novice) at Junior Nationals more than three times.
(b) WINNER OF AN EVENT DISCIPLINE: The winner or the winning pair or dance couple of an event discipline shall not be eligible for the same event discipline again.

 

[NorthernDancers]

That stated, learning an entirely new dance takes time away from practicing the old one, and they need to skate at World juniors (presumably), so risking it seems wierd - keeping in my they'd have to create a new step sequence for the no-touching circular step. A great result at World Juniors (top five) > a mediocre result (lower than sixth) at senior Nationals.

I guess this is precisely my point. They are in the best position, besides maybe Hasagawa's, to earn a JW medal. With their JGP assignments, I can't imagine how they'd miss the JGP Final. Placing well internationally as Juniors will matter more in the long-term than where they place in Canada, Junior or Senior, this season. But if they are distracted by having to learn new programs, and both programs would have to change to compete at home, what's the point for just 1 domestic competition? They'd spend all that time and effort and money just to compete 1 competition? That seems like a waste to me. Ranking in Canada matters sort of, especially if you are going to finish top 5, but I have to think that finishing top 5 in the World will not hurt their ranking in Canada, even if they don't compete at Nationals at all. So I guess that's my question. Do they have to compete domestically? Based on winning Junior domestically last year, the fact they still age qualify for Junior internationally, the disadvantages unique to dancers, would they have to compete at home?

 

[travis porter]

I just read the restrictions that (Blink) has posted, and its really making me wonder why Skate Canada isn't sending Garret Gosselin (4th at nationals, beautiful skater, has all triples, and has a triple triple combo) and Shaquille Davis (2nd at nationals, great technical ability,has a triple axel,and a triple triple combo). Based on the restrictions their both age eligible for jgp's this year so shouldn't these two guys be on the list without any question with Nam Nyugen, Liam Firus, and Peter O'brien?

 

[Blink]

"MANDATORY EVENTS: The following events are mandatory for all Skate Canada Sectionals: Men’s Singles, Women’s Singles, Mixed Pair, Mixed Dance in each of the five
classes - Senior, Junior, Novice, Pre-Novice, Juvenile\)

... Competitors who register for Senior events at Skate Canada Sectionals and who have been assigned a Senior Grand Prix or Junior Grand Prix Final event shall be granted an automatic entry into the Senior Canadian Figure Skating Championships event of the same event discipline in the same competitive season.

...BYED SKATERS: Those who have been granted byes through Sectional qualifying events (see (b) above and Byes Policy in Policies and Procedures) may enter their Skate Canada Challenge event or Canadian Figure Skating Championships event (or qualifying round at Canadians) as applicable without further qualification."

 

[colleen o'neill]

I can't believe this..... re: O/W..

Knowing what we now know..1. they must compete as seniors , if they are to compete at all at Nationals.
2. They are ageing out as Jrs. After Jr World's, they will be inelligible for the next round of JR. competition
3. normally , the Skate Canada cutoff for funding is 5th place at seniors ( I believe)

.. I think it's pretty mean to suggest that they shouldn't try... That they should sit out, lose national ranking ( not due to injury or any other unforeseen event , but, apparently, out of some weird sense of humility or to make sure other teams have a chance) and lose a chance to gain funding and possibly assignments for the next season. We are talking about competitions , are we not ?

I wouldn't suggest they're a shoo-in for that 5th spot, but the middle group in our senior field is pretty unsettled at the moment , and O/W have been on a sharp upward development curve as a couple . Why on earth shouldn't they try ?

I'm sure they've been aware of their situation all along and in light of all these requirements, I'd be surprised if they haven't been practicing Rhumba as well as Cha-cha through the off season.

 

[from the sidelines]

Orford/Williams probably have already choreographed their senior freedance knowing that they will be competing senior for nationals. Of course, their main focus right now would be the junior programs for the JGP season, after which they will concentrate on the senior stuff.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Exactly , from the sidelines...

 

[NorthernDancers]

I think it's pretty mean to suggest that they shouldn't try... That they should sit out, lose national ranking ( not due to injury or any other unforeseen event , but, apparently, out of some weird sense of humility or to make sure other teams have a chance) and lose a chance to gain funding and possibly assignments for the next season. We are talking about competitions , are we not ?

I'm not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite. I think the system stinks that they appear to have to compete both Junior and Senior this year. Again, we are talking about a lot of time and effort to make the top 5 at Senior for 1 competition. That's a big ask for a team. They may know the Rhumba pattern, but they still have to build a new program around it, and put some mileage on it, and they won't have competed it anywhere before Nationals. Same with an expanded free program. I'm pretty sure they are going to make the JGPF, and won't have to go to Challenge. In my opinion, with dancers, if they are competing well at Junior, winning or placing well internationally, they should not have to waste their time on Senior just for funding or ranking. The funding should just be there for them. There should be no loss of rank, but instead increased rank because of their achievements internationally. Even as it is today, I think a high international rank at Junior is much more valuable than a top 7 or 8 finish at Canadians in Senior. It's in the best interest of Skate Canada to promote this. Not competing domestically is not a weird sense of humility or about other teams, but a laser focused eye on their own results, which is winning a medal at Junior Worlds, which would be great for Orford/Williams, and happens to be pretty good for Canada, too.

The new season provides fresh opportunities for all teams. Again, I point to Arnold/Trojek who moved up the ranks significantly and received international assignments based on their level of improvement and results in the new season, not the previous year's finish. Tons of teams age out of Junior into Senior. Most enjoy staying Junior as long as they can before moving up to Senior. I think Doleman was a 5th year Junior last year. Williams is a 6th year Junior this season. When they get to Senior, it's about having a good start to the season, building on strong international results as Juniors, and showing growth and improvement throughout the season. With CoP, it isn't/shouldn't be about ranking, but the skating on the ice on the day of competition.

I worry about them being able to place top 5 at Senior. My current count of the top 5: Virtue/Moir, Weaver/Poje, Paul/Islam, Harvey/Gagnon, Ralph/Hill (the last 2 in any order); other teams looking for top 5 would include Arnold/Trojek, Arrotta/Nickel, perhaps Gilles/Poirier (she comes with a ton of high level experience, and this is likely to be a very good team), and whoever else might still surprise us. It's early in the season yet, and teams will get good competitive mileage on their programs. I expect teams 4 through 8 at least to be in top shape by Nationals. Again, I count 16 teams for Nationals this year. At least the top 10 will be pretty solid by Nationals, I suspect.