Joubert still miffed about worlds finish

[Buttercup]

Also wrt sportsmanship, I agree that petitioning is not a great option however, in SLC, it was absolutely the right decision because in that case, a judge was found to have cheated and cheating should not be tolerated. Cheating is an example of the worst kind of poor sportsmanship. The judge should have been from international judging for life IMO.

I agree SLC pairs was different, which was I wrote about protests in the aftermath of it rather than regarding that specific event. Though personally, I thought B/S deserved their gold, and I was bothered by the way many in the media treated them at the time. The criticism should have been directed at those responsible, not at two hard-working skaters who had done nothing wrong.

Brian knows the RULES of the game. How can he complain after the fact that he should have won based on the quad when he knew full well what point value it has relative to other elements? Did he want the judges to change the Cop during the competition? It's one thing to disagree with the rules - and processes available to try and change those rules.

Which is why I think ultimately Joubert's argument, even if not well expressed, was directed against the system and not against Jeffrey's win, which was very much deserved IMO. It's a variation on his "quads are undervalued and it's bad for the sport" argument, which he's been making pretty much since CoP came in. So far the ISU remains unconvinced.

I'm not sure how good a grasp Brian had/has on CoP; there are still changes being made to it, and his interview seemed to indicate he only figured out some of the base value issues after looking at the protocols. It seems a lot of skaters still aren't 100% up to speed on the scoring & rules (as could be seen from Daisuke's mistake with the combinations, for instance).

I don't think a quad in and of itself should mean victory, but I do believe the scoring system should make it worth a skater's while to put one or more in their programs; that's not the case right now, or we'd be seeing more Quads, especially in the SP where they currently seem to be few and far between. So I'd say, Brian keep working on your presentation and on maximizing content, and Jeffrey get to work on the quad so that it's consistent. May they both succeed in doing so and skate great programs next year.

 

[Bennett]

I think Joubert's comments were ill-timed, but personally I agree with the substance of what he's saying. I don't think the message is "Jeffrey Buttle is a bad skater", or "he didn't deserve to win". I do get the feeling that Brian would like all the top skaters to add the quad to their repertoire - he thinks it's important to the sport's progress for the top people to have top-notch technical content. I will NOT discuss his last two Worlds performances again in this respect because I have explained several times why I see them as irrelevant to this argument; those who disagree with me are welcome to do so but I think that subject has been debated quite enough. Anyway, I definitely agree that he should have expressed himself better and at a different time.

Hmmm, I am not sure if he meant "he would like all the top skaters to add the quad to their repertoire - he thinks it's important to the sport's progress for the top people to have top-notch technical content" although it surely sounds much better than to interpret his words as "A quadless skater does not deserve to win." Perhaps it is not very meaningful to try to interpret his words too seriously when he was apparently not communicating himself well enough. As you said, I agree that it would have been nice if he could have communicated a little bit more skillfully and at a different timing (with an interpreter if needed). If he had said in that language, he wouldn't have put himself in such a trouble as this.
In any case, he is not in the position to tell other skaters what they should and should not in their programs. I think that's one of the things that many people are annoyed about and is one of the reasons why he came across as being rude to Jeff regardless of his inncence in his intention. But this may be again more to do with his communicative skills and it was not really hurtful compared to other things that could have happened.
Each competitor has wonderful strengths in diverse areas, which makes this sport so rich and interesting. I am glad to learn from this newer interview that he seems to acknowledge other things that are important in the sport as well, despite his strong belief in the importance of the quad.

I think Brian's comments may have been interpreted as being disrespectful towards Jeffrey, but that Jeffrey - being a smart guy and a classy competitor - understood that much of it was in the heat of the moment and was absolutely not directed at him personally. I was very impressed by how he handled the situation.

I completely agree. Jeff was so classy and mature in his response. I respect him even more.

 

[BigJohn]

I mean, come on!..

I simply cannot see how anyone can actually defend Joubert in this episode.

First, I am not your typical Joubert hater, I even liked his 007 skate, what can I say, I love the Propellerheads (even if I have strong reservations about the fromageux #007 sequin on his back, but I disgress...). Like I said before, I did not dislike him until 1 second after he finished his LP.

I really did not like his screaming reaction, nor his coach as he left the ice. They pretty much acted like it was in the bag the moment he finished skating. Had he won, I would have fount it an ugly triumph. I don't care about the back story with injuries, weightloss and blablabla.

Then, he had a tantrum, manly pushing fences and said "ça me fait chier" to be beaten by someone who does not take any risk when he figured out he had been beaten by Buttle. I do find that it is acting like a sore loser, but hey, if you want to have a diva moment on live TV, go for it Brian. And he sure acted like a bitter old diva when you think about it.

I figured he would calm down, watch the competition, realize he was beaten fair and square and put it behind him. I expected him to feel a little bit ashamed of himself.

Then I read the article, the whole thing by the way. Still whining, "I am still mad." And you have to believe that he believes that the system is the culprit. Well newsflash: if he had won, then there would have been a strong case to say that the system is flawed. There is simply no way his performance was better than Buttle, and it is beyond comprehension how he could have scored better than Buttle on PCS. NO WAY.

So he says he has to improve. Good, everyone needs to improve and work with the new system. But he still acts and talks like he had been somehow unfairly deprived of a championship. Joubert needs to be less a diva and more a man about the whole thing. He wants to win, then he must skate to win and take risks himself. He needs to stop saying others are not taking risks, because HE is the one who played it safe.

I mean, come on!..

 

[discoduck]

Brian talks a lot about taking risks and putting it all out there. He held back in Goteburg and he was beaten. Personally I think he needs to take a look at that before saying anything else.

 

[Medusa]

I simply cannot see how anyone can actually defend Joubert in this episode.

Because the guy is human! Of course he is wrong, of course he just needs to count his jumps, combos and compare some spins.

But speaking as someone who is practically incapable of playing games that somehow involve luck because I get absolutely furious if I lose - I kind of understand him. That doesn't mean that he is right or that I think that the Quad is the almighty element of figure skating - I just understand him. Losing is horrible, I can't calm down for two weeks if some of my studdy buddies is better in a test than I am. I am not really objective and rational then either.

Why can't we just leave it alone now? Joubert was criticised by fans, berated by the international press (especially the Canadian) - I think it's enough. He probably knows perfectly well that he was a wee bit arrogant and knows why he lost. What more do you want?

 

[BigJohn]

He probably knows perfectly well that he was a wee bit arrogant

Well, having read the article, I seriously doubt that.

Anyway, I rest my case.

 

[Kinga]

I agree. If he realized that he was arrogant, he shouldn't have been speaking in exactly the same tone again.

I do not believe that he loses very much respect for it . First because he does not criticize Buttle, but he believes that the system of punctuation has to be modified. Those who were estimating it before will know that what he said is not new because he says it for 2 years (he and Plushenko, lambiel , lysacek and the majority of europeans trainers and judges)
And those who do not likehim, will have a new excuse. If he had not spoken after the Lp, they would criticize him for another thing (That his silver is not just, that have given him many punctuation in artistic, that the deduction for the music in the short one was just .........)

If you do not believe me, read this thread, the majority of those who criticize him they have not read the interview, only the heading ......

I read the whole article, I did not have anything against Joubert, but now, I did lose some respect to him. He certainly earned some negative 'points' from people who were 'neutral' to him or even liked him. So you cannot explain negative opinions of him by saying that they come only from people disliking him.

I already said, and some disagree with me, that one does not have to be agresive to the opponent in order to lose in bad way. This is exactly what happened. Even if one is mad because of his/her competitve temperament, you really dont have to show it, do you? Medusa, when you are beaten by someone in a test, are going around and saying how mad you are?? I doubt that.. . Certainly, he could have lost with more classy way...

And then, just because that he mentions that he wants to work on other elements, he gets praised and the whole unproper part of his interview is justified by most of you. So what that he says that he will work on other elements? The main thing he is mad about is not that he did not succeeded with those elements this year. But maybe this is what he should be regreting instead of complaining of current judging system? If he truly appreciates the value of other elements, and knows he can master them, he should just work on them instead of wanting to earn most from a quad or two.

 

[Buttercup]

Even if one is mad because of his/her competitve temperament, you really dont have to show it, do you? Medusa, when you are beaten by someone in a test, are going around and saying how mad you are?? I doubt that..

Well, most of us, even when we do blow up about something, do not have a TV camera in our face and people posting the footage on YouTube (and I'm not sure losing a world championship is on par with a bad test). Now, you can say that as a veteran competitor he should have known better, which I agree with to a certain point, but I really can't see his actions as being as bad as some have painted them to be. Could he have been more classy? Yes, you are right - he could have been. Is he an awful person because he was not? I vote no.

I think Brian's point in this interview was that he needs to work harder and the system needs to be changed in regards to quads - personally, I agree with both parts of this. Again, I don't think his quad comments were directed at Jeffrey Buttle, considering Brian's been making them for the last four years, regardless of whether he won, lost to a guy with a quad, or lost to a guy without a quad. He is nothing if not consistent , and even if one disagrees with his opinion on this matter, I hardly think expressing it is improper in any way.

At this point I doubt anyone will change his or her mind about the whole thing. Each of us is interpreting his words and his actions in a different way, and as Bennett wrote, it's not the best excercise to engage in considering Brian does not appear to have communicated his thoughts as clearly as he might have. Since I doubt he will be popping on the boards to clarify his meaning, we'll just have to agree to disagree...

 

[Kinga]

Could he have been more classy? Yes, you are right - he could have been. Is he an awful person because he was not? I vote no.

I have never said that he is an awful person I just would have much better opinion of him if he was a bit more classy.

 

[merrybari]

Brian is not the only one who feels this way - former elite skaters and commentators and others - have all expressed a need for the ISU to address this issue to award the quad in accordance with it's difficulty and risk in relation to other elements. Seems to me the ones who are putting it out there are the ones in the best position to assess that. How can a panel of "experts" many of whom have most likely not tried it, know how difficult it is in comparison to the others.

Furthermore, I don't see that those who are doing it are neglecting other areas/elements and expecting to "win" based on the quad alone. All they are asking is that the quad be valued in relation to its risk and difficulty with the other jumps.

Tho' perhaps he could've been more temperate in the WAY he expressed himself, if the skaters don't stick up for themselves and express their feelings about the disparity in the judging system, who will?

There's the old adage: "Silence is acceptance." If they don't speak out, the tendency is to believe the status quo is fine, when clearly, in the minds of many it isn't fine at all.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think the whole concept of Base Values should be reviewed, and bring back the inside take offs of the Wally and the Inside Axel.

Joe

 

[Buttercup]

Tho' perhaps he could've been more temperate in the WAY he expressed himself, if the skaters don't stick up for themselves and express their feelings about the disparity in the judging system, who will?

I think you are absolutely right. I would welcome more input from skaters about CoP and what they think works vs. what about it doesn't. It's still a new system and as such should be open to criticism and revision, whether it's undervalued quads, PCS not being used properly, or an over-emphasis on certain things in spins and footwork - or whatever skaters think needs fixing.

 

[tidleywinks]

i really don't understand some of the arguments being presented here.

figure skating is a sport and advancements in the sport should be welcomed and rewarded. do we really want skating to go back to a time when skaters intentionally leave out jumps they can do (i'm thinking the 1970s)? the isu has to push the envelope not just in spins and footwork, but jump content as well to keep the sport moving forward

brian has a right to be annoyed and a right to say so when asked. whats key here is that he is looking at his program and seeing what points he left on the table as well. also many athletes in many sports base their performance or excursion levels on what their competitors have done. there is always a risk in that. 2007 worked for brian. 2008 came up short. end of story.

not taking anything away from jeff, i don't want to be watching skating 5 years from now and seeing an 8 triple program win, great spins and footwork notwithstanding.

 

[merrybari]

i really don't understand some of the arguments being presented here.

figure skating is a sport and advancements in the sport should be welcomed and rewarded. do we really want skating to go back to a time when skaters intentionally leave out jumps they can do (i'm thinking the 1970s)? the isu has to push the envelope not just in spins and footwork, but jump content as well to keep the sport moving forward

brian has a right to be annoyed and a right to say so when asked. whats key here is that he is looking at his program and seeing what points he left on the table as well. also many athletes in many sports base their performance or excursion levels on what their competitors have done. there is always a risk in that. 2007 worked for brian. 2008 came up short. end of story.

not taking anything away from jeff, i don't want to be watching skating 5 years from now and seeing an 8 triple program win, great spins and footwork notwithstanding.

Well said!! ITA!!!

 

[Mathman]

I don't think the answer is to award more points for a quad.

If the big quad guys want top push the technical envelope, a good start would be to work on landing their jumps.

Joubert did a quad, which netted him 10.29 points. But he gave it back by doing only one triple Axel and no quad or triple-Axel in combination.

Takahashi did two quads. But the second one was downgraded, no second jump in the combo, and it ended up with a score of 0.20.

Lambiel did two quads.. But he got negative GOEs on both, and the second was downgraded and he got only 1.97 points for it.

If the ISU doubled the value of a quad from 9 points to 18 points, Buttle still would have out-scored Joubert in both the tech score and overall in the LP.

 

[indicatoto101]

What's difficult depends on the skater. Joubert has a consistent quad, but he has weaker triple axel. Lambiel doens't have a triple axel. Verner, from what I saw at Worlds, gained much more height and distance on the quad than the axel. The quad is only a half rotation more than the 3axel, and rotation is aided by the toe-pick.

Granted, Jeff doens't have a 4t but his toe jumps are weaker than edge jumps. I've read he's practicing the salchow?

figure skating is a sport and advancements in the sport should be welcomed and rewarded

The quad hasn't really advanced since Browning landed it 20 years ago. Skaters have mostly landed the toe, and a few have landed the salchow. We haven't seen the quad loop, flip, or lutz (landed on one leg). No elite man at the moment is "advancing" the sport, except that Canadian skater who landed a 4-3-3. They are only skating to standards set by them from Goebel, Plushenko, Yagudin, and other skaters in the past with quads. What is different in the new system however, are level 4 footwoork and spins. You don't see those under 6.0.

 

[calica]

We haven't seen the quad loop, flip, or lutz (landed on one leg).

We are not even going to see it.
I know that Joubert and Lambiel practise 4 flip (joubert has 4 luzt) but they will not put it in his programs because it is a too big risk for a system that underestimates the quad

 

[BigJohn]

I fail to see the big deal about the quad in advancing the sport: it's only 1/2 extra rotation and it lasts .136 second. How does that add anything to the excitement of watching a 4 minute program?

For those who need to see 4 or more rotations in the air, how about watching some extreme snowboarding? They jump way higher and you can actually see the rotation and count them as they spin slowly.

 

[Buttercup]

I've also heard of skaters landing harder quads in practice, but I gather none are consistent enough with those jumps to risk putting it in a program. My main concern, if I were a skater considering it, would be UR, not a fall. The bottom line is that risk vs. the actual reward would not justify it as things currently stand.

No elite man at the moment is "advancing" the sport, except that Canadian skater who landed a 4-3-3.

Well, to set a certain standard as being the norm is also an advance, IMHO, though I'd agree that was done several years ago and not by the current group. I guess the main advances with quads have been with quads per program and quad combinations - 4-3-3 sounds pretty difficult (though I believe it actually dates back to Plushy), does anyone know what it's worth under CoP?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The only way to advance the Sport, imo, is to have the Jumps have their own competition, and cut out the music.

I presume all other facets of figure skating can not advance the Sport. Am I correct.

Joe