Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[Alex65]

....
He’s got potential and with work and time, he‘ll be able to overtake both Lukin and Kutovoi. Give it time, I‘d say.

And now you have already put Lukin on a par with Kutov. Lukin, who, (except for the quad, which he can sometimes land), is no different from most other boys of his age. Skate, choreо , plastic and a sense of music for Lukin - everything is at an average ordinary level. Ah. Well yes. His coach is the one whose name immediately makes everything great.

 

[nussnacker]

It is not true.


This is your subjective opinion. Sasha is stronger than Anna in several other parameters of the PCS.

In general, they have almost equal BV, the difference in TES is unsportsmanlike in RusNats. This should not be used as an argument.

Well, for objectivity let’s take the only international competition in their junior season, where they competed against one another, and Anna didn’t implode: junior worlds 2019. Anna scored 66 in PCS in the free, Sasha scored 64. She scored higher in SP too, but judges didn’t really differentiate them in SP all that much.

In their first senior season that happened even more, and pcs gap grew as the season went. But we can see that even in juniors, Sasha wasn’t generally marked higher in PCS than Anna. I’m only saying that, because you keep behaving as if Sasha was always scoring higher than Anna in PCS and that suddenly changed when she went to Plushenko. That’s just not the case internationally and in fact, at Junior Worlds Anna only lost mere 3 points to Sasha despite doing only 1 quad and having a step out from it, while Sasha was going for 3 quads. Anna was able to almost make up their huge score gap by doing better in other areas.

We can keep saying everything’s just a ‘subjective opinion’, but judges have been valuing Anna highly in PCS for a long time now.

Being honest, I wish PCS just weighted less in general. That it was perhaps just 30-40% of the total score, not 50% as it is now. I do think it takes away from figure skating as a sport and it is an area that is hard to put into numbers. One can say who’s better, but why is it 3 or 4 points, and not 5 - that’s purely subjective. But I can acknowledge someone’s weaknesses and stronger areas, simply ignoring them and putting your head in the sand is not going to lead anyone to winning.

 

[nussnacker]

And now you have already put Lukin on a par with Kutov. Lukin, who, (except for the quad, which he can sometimes land), is no different from most other boys of his age. Skate, choreо , plastic and a sense of music for Lukin - everything is at an average ordinary level. Ah. Well yes. His coach is the one whose name immediately makes everything great.

No, Lukin isn’t as strong as Kutovoy in my book, but he’s lagging behind Kutovoi a lot less than Sarnovsky. Hence, if Sarnovsky reaches the level of Kutovoi, Lukin wouldn’t be a problem for him.

 

[Alex65]

Well, for objectivity let’s take the only international competition in their junior season, where they competed against one another, and Anna didn’t implode: junior worlds 2019. Anna scored 66 in PCS in the free, Sasha scored 64. She scored higher in SP too, but judges didn’t really differentiate them in SP all that much.

In their first senior season that happened even more, and pcs gap grew as the season went. But we can see that even in juniors, Sasha wasn’t generally marked higher in PCS than Anna. I’m only saying that, because you keep behaving as if Sasha was always scoring higher than Anna in PCS and that suddenly changed when she went to Plushenko. That’s just not the case internationally and in fact, at Junior Worlds Anna only lost mere 3 points to Sasha despite doing only 1 quad and having a step out from it, while Sasha was going for 3 quads. Anna was able to almost make up their huge score gap by doing better in other areas.

We can keep saying everything’s just a ‘subjective opinion’, but judges have been valuing Anna highly in PCS for a long time now.

Being honest, I wish PCS just weighted less in general. That it was perhaps just 30-40% of the total score, not 50% as it is now. I do think it takes away from figure skating as a sport and it is an area that is hard to put into numbers. One can say who’s better, but why is it 3 or 4 points, and not 5 - that’s purely subjective. But I can acknowledge someone’s weaknesses and stronger areas, simply ignoring them and putting your head in the sand is not going to lead anyone to winning.

At the beginning of the second junior season, Sasha received PCS no less than Anna. But she never received a pure FS. She fell. Anna tried to be clean and her PCS grew. Now let's go back to my first post today.
"It's funny to see how the views of the same people change depending on the agenda. When Sasha started to lag behind Anna in the assessment of the PCS last season, everyone here was unanimously saying that Sasha was falling on the ice, she lacked purity and stability. And now I see a statement here that, all other things being equal, pure skate is not enough to win))" (с)

 

[nussnacker]

At the beginning of the second junior season, Sasha received PCS no less than Anna. But she never received a pure FS. She fell. Anna tried to be clean and her PCS grew. Now let's go back to my first post today.

They weren’t competing against one another though, that happened at different competitions.
At the beginning of that season Sasha also received PCS no less than Aliona, in fact she received higher PCS in the short than Aliona at least one time. That doesn’t mean she was a stronger PCS skater than Aliona at that point, it happened simply because they competed with different judging panels, and comparing scores between different competitions is not objective. Their PCS changed when they competed against one another in one competition.

 

[Alex65]

No, Lukin isn’t as strong as Kutovoy in my book, but he’s lagging behind Kutovoi a lot less than Sarnovsky. Hence, if Sarnovsky reaches the level of Kutovoi, Lukin wouldn’t be a problem for him.

If Alena reaches the level of Sasha's technique, then Anna will not be a problem for her. If Sasha reaches the level of Alena's PCS, then no one will be a problem for her. Perfectly. Only Anna doesn't have to go anywhere. She has +20 points over Sasha, and I'm even afraid to imagine her advantage over Alena. A wonderful fair world, which is a sin to complain about.

 

[nussnacker]

If Alena reaches the level of Sasha's technique, then Anna will not be a problem for her. If Sasha reaches the level of Alena's PCS, then no one will be a problem for her. Perfectly. As soon as Anna did not have anywhere to go. She has +20 points over Sasha, and I'm even afraid to imagine her advantage over Alena. A wonderful fair world, which is a sin to complain about.

Absolutely true.how’s that called? Unintentionally correct?
i guess you wanted to be sarcastic, but it is in fact the reality.

If Sasha skates like Aliona and does her quads, she’ll be the female Yuzuru Hanyu. If Aliona gets the same level of tech content as Sasha she’ll also be Yuzuru Hanyu. Right now, both aren’t there, neither is Anna.
I do believe in Sasha, and that she’s in this sport for a long game, and that she can reach Aliona’s level of skating and be one of the greatest skaters in the world ever. I just don’t think she’s there yet, right now.

 

[Alex65]

That's all well said. But we have strayed from the topic)

 

[Scott512]

For the record, TAT never said he’s a fake coach, another one of those „exaggerations“ I guess.
She merely said she’s tired of all that drama, and it would be better if they worked instead of that.

I'm sorry TAT got caught up in allegations of saying something bad about Plushy when she didnt. That is of course fake news. She is one of the greatest coaches ever in the sport obviously and she would know that it's better to get to work then get to complaining publicly. I'm sure her charges were overscored and underscored hundreds of times when she' was coaching. It's just the way it is when you're dealing with human beings as judges.

My thing is to keep the judges for 5 or 6 years and then changing them up on all levels of figure skating.

 

[Scott512]

Татьяна Тарасова о коттеджах для Трусовой и Косторной: «Это здорово и удобно для работы! Какой это перебор?»

Татьяна Тарасова о коттеджах для Трусовой и Косторной: «Это здорово и удобно для работы! Какой это перебор?» - Фигурное катание на Sports.ru

m.sports.ru

Don't know what he's been doing for the past 3 years, sweet F all I guess.

You mean she really did say something nasty about plushy? No TAT no! We don't need her pouring gasoline on this fire of a judging controversy.

 

[FelineFairy]

I am afraid you are slightly misinterpreting TAT's words. They are translated linguistically correctly into English, but the cultural context is different. "Not a coach" means not an accomplished coach. In the Russian cultural context we tend to exaggerate both positive and negative evaluations. That"s what I often say in Russian about myself: "When I started judging, I was not a judge yet." Meaning that my views were limited by education only, I needed experience. And I often say when lecturing to student judges: "Even after passing your exams, in your first years of judging independently you are not judges yet". What I mean is that they still have to learn a lot, to gain experience, a wider perspective etc.etc. These words are not offensive.
So please don't take these seemingly harsh words for real defamation.

 

[FelineFairy]

Being honest, I wish PCS just weighted less in general. That it was perhaps just 30-40% of the total score, not 50% as it is now. I do think it takes away from figure skating as a sport and it is an area that is hard to put into numbers. One can say who’s better, but why is it 3 or 4 points, and not 5 - that’s purely subjective.

100% my thoughts, too. Artistry is immeasurable. Reading discussions here, I am sometimes stunned at not just different, but totally opposite perceptions of some performances. Besides, people often equate artistry to PCS, while skating skills and transitions are technical rather than artistic components.
Still, no changes in any scoring system will ever prevent people, athletes and coaches included, from feeling someone was under- or overscored. The only way to alleviate the problem would be to introduce inquiries and supervising juries.

 

[Amei]

For the record, TAT never said he’s a fake coach, another one of those „exaggerations“ I guess.
She merely said she’s tired of all that drama, and it would be better if they worked instead of that.

Bravo and completely agree then. Plushenko and Eteri's coaches should take heed from someone on the coaches council.

 

[Amei]

Came across this, Rodina has provided her 2 cents on the matter. https://www.sports.ru/figure-skatin...-ot-plyushhenko-zhaluyutsya-tolko-slabye.html

Three-time Olympic champion Irina Rodnina commented on Evgeni Plushenko 's criticism of refereeing at Russian figure skating tournaments .

“I don’t know why you need to put pressure on the judges. Only the weak complain. There is a golden rule in figure skating: the coach and the athlete do not discuss the work of the judges.

For such cases, there is a team guide - they can write a protest. There is even a certain form and rules, ”Rodnina said.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

He never makes Instagram stories showing off his empire and all those doll houses he has built in that empire.

I don’t understand why it is so surprising that a multiple time Olympic champion, World champion, and one of the most recognized skaters in the sport has a lot of money, and why it’s so horrible that he would spend some of it to improve his academy. And showing it on Instagram is just his way of getting the word out about new developments in the academy. Khrustalniy also has IG where they share information about the skaters and the school. This is one of the things I feel Moose is talking about where if Khrustalniy did it, it would be awesome, amazing, how wonderful they are doing this for the skaters, they are making the school better etc. But since it’s Plushenko he’s clearly showing off, so full of himself, such a terrible awful person etc. Let’s ignore he isn’t building houses for himself, it is to benefit the skaters.

 

[nussnacker]

100% my thoughts, too. Artistry is immeasurable. Reading discussions here, I am sometimes stunned at not just different, but totally opposite perceptions of some performances. Besides, people often equate artistry to PCS, while skating skills and transitions are technical rather than artistic components.
Still, no changes in any scoring system will ever prevent people, athletes and coaches included, from feeling someone was under- or overscored. The only way to alleviate the problem would be to introduce inquiries and supervising juries.

I don’t think that there’s no objective way to say something is better. There is. One can tell why a certain ballerina is better and deserves the main part, and why the other will just get a 1 min appearance on the stage.
One can tell a difference between War and peace, or Crime and punishment and something like 50 shades of grey, and what makes one art form better and the other worse.
One can say why Shawshank redemption is a better movie than Twilight.
There are experts and professionals who can decide, and have nuanced eye.

I just have a problem with putting a number to it, especially in real time. I think one can say when something is better or worse, but not many would be able to justify why something like presentation is valued at 9.25 and not 9.75.

 

[Anoosheh]

I don’t understand why it is so surprising that a multiple time Olympic champion, World champion, and one of the most recognized skaters in the sport has a lot of money, and why it’s so horrible that he would spend some of it to improve his academy. And showing it on Instagram is just his way of getting the word out about new developments in the academy.

That's exactly the thing that I was talking about. He thinks by building and providing more and more accommodations, his academy is developing and improving. But the ONLY WAY he can actually show us that his academy is improving is by showing us the improvements of his skaters.

Dubai skating clubs can provide you with much more luxurious accommodations and facilities than Plushenko does. But can we consider them to be good skating schools?

 

[anonymoose_au]

Oh please, you know and I know and everyone knows that if Crystal had such facilities you'd be fawning all over them! "Oh how wonderful! Oh they're so good to their skaters! Eteri is amazing!"

You probably don't give a fig, but when Plushenko started skating in St Petersburg, he had to live alone in a room in a communal apartment with four other families including a drunken lout. He had to make his own meals and travel all the way to the rink on his own.

He was 11 years old at the time.

Ever considered this is him wanting to give these skaters everything he never had?

Guess not because he's just a cardboard villain to you.

 

[Pale]

Quite frankly the houses look like a dorm. According to Yana's video Trusova has three bedrooms and six beds.
I highly doubt her whole family is going to live there
Anyways, the fact that he is building a place to live for his skaters is definitely a good thing

 

[FelineFairy]

I don’t think that there’s no objective way to say something is better. There is. One can tell why a certain ballerina is better and deserves the main part, and why the other will just get a 1 min appearance on the stage.
One can tell a difference between War and peace, or Crime and punishment and something like 50 shades of grey, and what makes one art form better and the other worse.
One can say why Shawshank redemption is a better movie than Twilight.
There are experts and professionals who can decide, and have nuanced eye.

I just have a problem with putting a number to it, especially in real time. I think one can say when something is better or worse, but not many would be able to justify why something like presentation is valued at 9.25 and not 9.75.

Well, I think it's only possible to say it in extreme cases, not comparing Shakespeare and Goethe, but Shakespeare and a newspaper reporter.
A ballerina can be technically better, then it is easy. But what about that elusive "soul" , how can it be the basis for judging? What theater is better, Bolshoi ballet or Mariinsky ballet? They say Bolshoi has the soul, Mariinsky the technique, but Uliana Lopatkina from Mariinsky is the very soul of ballet and Svetlana Zakharova from Bolshoi the best technician, maybe ever. Nothing will ever be tangible in artistry.
And TBH I hate Crime and Punishment, Dostoevsky's language and style on the whole. I will say the best master of Russian word is Chekhov. Put me on the jury together with professors who think Dostoevsky is the top of Russian literature, how shall we vote?
Discussing artistry on another thread I realised that there are all kinds of ideas about it. Many people think it is connection with the audience, charisma, emoting. For some, it does not even mean rendering complicated emotions, but just happily smiling and being charming. For others it is telling a story. While for me it is not only emoting but also full connection to the music, creating an image, deep understanding and rendering it through elements on musical accents together with aesthetically suitable movements and facial expressions. Others may have a different perception of artistry. And there is a question of taste, too. There are excellent accomplished skaters who are loved by many but don't touch the hearts of others. If it were simple to say who is better or worse artistically, why, then, all the fan wars? Fans first fall in love because they can relate to a skater and only after that they start looking for arguments in the technical subtleties.
It was a very long way to say that PCS can hardly be used to objectively reflect the artistry of the skater, they are a ranking tool, and when skaters/coaches complain about them, in my book it means they object against the given rank.