Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[FelineFairy]

They need to pass National exams. Then international and ISU exams/practices. They need to continue education and training (i will quote one of the recent posts i remember which explained it closely)

Here you can find about existence of ISU forms and seminars https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-forms-reports-seminars
Some of them you can watch on youtube https://www.youtube.com/ISUDevelopmentProjects?sub_confirmation=1
And this is the example of judge explaining the process of judging https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpqIc5Dg3mQ

Thank you very much. Good that there is an established judging system we all know of and also an established system of appointments. Everyone can read the rules and also watch the YouTube videos for (they are for +5-5 GOE on that channel) . Thank you for providing the links. What I would like to see is an explanation of requirements for admission, contents of training, regulations for ethics, etc. What I see is explanations of how to apply Rule A to skater B. This is of course absolutely necessary for judges, and useful for everyone who wants to understand. What I would like to know besides, is if judge C who gave skater B 8,5 or 9,5, or 6,75 in IN, has been trained in understanding music well enough to do the scoring correctly. As an example.

 

[Skatesocs]

I always feel like there's history dating back to the Catalaunian Fields when it comes to the Russian ladies on this forum

@Blades of Passion

If your point is to simply say that Shcherbakova shouldn't have led by 6 points after the SP, then I agree.

If you also want to say that Trusova most certainly should have the lead, then I need more information from you about your analysis.

1. What do you mean by the bolded?

Besides the SP placements being way off, Trusova deserved 2nd place overall to me. She did harder quads than Valieva and the +3Loop combo,

If this means that we need to take into account the additional difficulty that a 3Lz+3Lo possesses for Trusova in the LP (even though it's not taken into account by the CoP properly)... then this should also count for Shcherbakova in the SP against Trusova.

(I think that's exactly what @esteticlove tried to suggest, but since you gave them this response, I am not sure):

Shcherbakova's combo was not as high quality (worse lutz). She gains .77 on base value but then should lose .59 on the GOE evaluation. So there's almost no advantage there.

2. Here I have a more straightforward issue:

Trusova

LSp4 +3, nice entrance and centering, nice arms, pretty good speed, not the best free leg position, especially on the "haircutter" position I'm borderline about if it should count as a difficult variation like this

Shcherbakova

LSp4 +3, the illusion turn entrance could dip down better, leg on the sideways position is too bent

If you'd judged the sideways position as unworthy for the level credit - that's lower BV and associated GOE. Even if you were to say that the sideways position is good enough, wouldn't it still be a weaker position than Shcherbakova's? It's confusing for me that you gave them the same GOE and the same level credit.

(Edit after getting quoted: he CLEARLY said Trusova's haircutter and yet I wrote in sideways ugh)

3. Then this (and the big deal being made over it):

Not only the first position became worse, she had to continue to find centering, and the entire thing lost speed. 3 seconds of a program being worse is already something that needs to be deducted anyway. The program has factually become worse for that period of time, so the score needs to be lower in comparison to a perfect execution.

All well and good... but you proceeded to give them pretty much the same scores in the artistic components.

Trusova

Performance - 8.25 - a confident performance but not an overly radiant one
Choreography - 8.25 - the combo spin and especially the footwork sequence don't have enough purpose with the chosen movements, but there is a softness to the arms throughout and sense of unforced strength that is conveyed by the movement
Interpretation - 8.0 - a cantilever with this music? why? That's like wearing a leather dominatrix outfit to a baptism. Some of the other movements were too severe or non-descript for the music as well, but she generally followed its contours and the gentle crescendo

Shcherbakova

Performance - 8.25 - mostly very polished, but a bit disconnected
Choreography - 8.0 - not enough standout moves, too montone
Interpretation - 8.0 - pretty generic refinement on display, it's respectable, not inspired

This would suggest that you otherwise found Shcherbakova's artistic components ever-so-slightly better than Trusova for the rest of the performance? In that case, it's not much of a stretch that some might even give Shcherbakova the slight edge on PCS, when you're literally dealing with such minutiae. Of course it shouldn't be an overly large gap, but swapping the PCS you gave them isn't a stretch.

I would personally only argue that Shcherbakova had too much of a gap. I don't really care who "should" have finished first when they were pretty much equally uninspired here.

I'm not sure why you can't write a comparative analysis of the programs and why you think Shcherbakova deserved to be scored so much higher, if you really think the scores were accurate.

Because they are just skating fans They don't have the knowledge you possess and might not be able to analyse to your extent. Obviously, they will try to respond to you, and when they don't agree, obviously, they'll cite the judges. The ones who agree with you already agree with Plushy. The ones who don't already disagree with Plushy. It doesn't really say much or prove much either way.

---

Post in thread '2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating' https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2020-21-russian-ladies-figure-skating.85832/post-2609598

Lol. Dear, please stop taking "insults" against your favorites so personally. If you read the rest of my exchange there with Fried, it will be clear to you I was only ribbing them since they were getting frazzled (over skating, of all things, in the year 2020). They got that. You are only showing me how silly it is to take some of the complaining that goes on in that thread even remotely seriously.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Thank you very much. Good that there is an established judging system we all know of and also an established system of appointments. Everyone can read the rules and also watch the YouTube videos for (they are for +5-5 GOE on that channel) . Thank you for providing the links. What I would like to see is an explanation of requirements for admission, contents of training, regulations for ethics, etc. What I see is explanations of how to apply Rule A to skater B. This is of course absolutely necessary for judges, and useful for everyone who wants to understand. What I would like to know besides, is if judge C who gave skater B 8,5 or 9,5, or 6,75 in IN, has been trained in understanding music well enough to do the scoring correctly. As an example.

Referee of the competition is the one watching the judging process. Beside judging the skaters in much broader manner (for example by writing skater A components should be between 6 and 7.75, skater B components should be between 7.5 and 8.75, spin of skater C should be extra rewarded for creativity etc), he/she is analyzing the numbers judges are giving. He/she has the meeting with the judges before and after the competition, where judges analyzing what referee noted, explaining their marks which are off the referees coridor for example. Majority of the judges are former skaters or being involved in figure skating, some of them are better trained in music (but minority i guess). Thats why there are multiple judges on the panel and not just one, and thats why judges have a meeting before and after the competition to analyze performances/scores.

 

[Blades of Passion]

How do judges decide something is "outstanding"? Do they compare it with some skill previously displayed by a skater phenomenal in that aspect? Or is it outstanding in the competition they are judging? Or among the recently competing athletes in the whole world? I mean, if only Kostner is deemed to have had outstanding skating skills, then every top lady competing at present can have only smth between 7 and 8,5? To add, it is more tangible with skating skills and transitions, but less so with other PCS. Is it possible that a judge has one ideal in, say, choreography and compares everyone else with it? Do judges get instruction in seminars about what is outstanding, excellent, good etc.?

There is a small amount of video example given in the judges' training about what is considered to be great, average, bad PCS. Not nearly enough, and not with a complete enough comparison of details, and also I do not agree with several of the general notions that have been presented in the judging packages. They've tried to put a heavy emphasis on never doing more than two crossovers in a row in a program and not stopping much (Baiul's 1994 program was used as an example of something bad; totally ignoring the difficulty of her toepick work and her expressiveness and the refinement of her body positions that are sorely lacking in skating these days).

In general though, judges decide PCS mostly by reputation/politics for a skater, what they have been told to score skaters as, and then modify it slightly based on obvious things they see in a program, or a bit of gut instinct. What you will not find in any ISU document is how judges are constantly given a range for specific skaters that they must score the skater within, "or else". Judges are not independent, they are reliant on their federation selecting them; at any time they can be pushed under the rug. Being a judge is something that makes these people feel better about themselves to be in a position of power, and clinging onto that power can become more important than rational or critical thought. Then of course there's the whole issue of personal gifts used to sway judges.

Most judges have quite a superficial view of skating, many lack a great deal of skating experience themselves, and they are generally not spending a great deal of time actually considering the programs as whole. They are often staring at technical elements the whole time and just trying to keep with that; their evaluation of the PCS becomes disproportionally weighted on looking at replays of elements. Doing meaningless transitions into and out of jumps thus becomes more important with the way things are evaluated these days, because simple-minded judges will automatically reward that, and see it on replays, ahead of thinking about the artistic value of the entire program and all of the details in it.

---

And now we can move on to someone who has thankfully become engaged with the conversation of comparing the actual skating at Russian Nats:

If this means that we need to take into account the additional difficulty that a 3Lz+3Lo possesses for Trusova in the LP (even though it's not taken into account by the CoP properly)... then this should also count for Shcherbakova in the SP against Trusova.

Nah, I was just talking about the base values in general when comparing Trusova and Valieva in the LP. The +3Loop combo is more important in the LP because in this context it means you upgrade what would otherwise be a 2Toe, to a 2Axel (the +2Toe combo becomes a +3Loop and what would have been a solo 3Loop is now a 2Axel), so that's more valuable than going from 3Toe to 3Loop in the SP.

Like I was saying, Valieva's LP is extremely overscored on PCS (and I'm someone who loves her SP), the interpretation is awful, she is almost never in time with the music of Bolero. Since she does not deserve a big PCS advantage over Trusova, and since she already did not deserve to be ahead of her in the SP, Trusova having 3 significantly higher technical elements in the LP (and similar/better GOE) should have put her ahead overall.

If you'd judged the sideways position as unworthy for the level credit - that's lower BV and associated GOE. Even if you were to say that the sideways position is good enough, wouldn't it still be a weaker position than Shcherbakova's? It's confusing for me that you gave them the same GOE

Shcherbakova's layback has a better haircutter position than Trusova (although still not a great one, and Shcherbakova's leg position in fact gets lazier as she attempts to stay in the position), but a worse entrance to the spin, so that's where it evens out.

This would suggest that you otherwise found Shcherbakova's artistic components ever-so-slightly better than Trusova for the rest of the performance?

I think if Shcherbakova had skated the SP perfectly, then she would maybe deserve .25 higher on choreography than Trusova (would still depend on exactly how pleasing I find the camel spin to be). Since she did have that mistake though, the program is instead .25 worse choreographically. Maybe it could also increase her performance and interpretation by .25, but this again depends on exactly what the spin would have looked like. The mistake actually maybe wasn't worse on interpretation because the music is mournful; it almost represented the emotional struggle, with a resolve to find grace, that was attempting to be expressed. Overall the program still would not be anything amazing, she lacked the full maturity and emotional understanding of this piece, the choreography simply did not even try to fully express it, and the ending is rushed, she just ignores the music there.

 

[Skatesocs]

lol, you CLEARLY said Trusova's haircutter in the analysis, and yet I still wrote in sideways to be fair to myself, I want neither to exist in a spin usually

 

[sinus]

For Blades of Passion not so far ago Trusova was so bad and overscored, now suddenly she is so good and underscored -

LOL, I've already even made screencaps of this jump from Trusova before. It's more pre-rotated than you say, and cheated overall.

If talking about the amount of artistry a top competitor in figure skating should have, then Trusova is definitely below average to me.

with regards to her quads, Trusova's are below average compared to what a good Quad should be.

Trusova deserves maybe a 6.0 for PCS

 

[Blades of Passion]

What is your point? Skaters change and performances can vary drastically in quality for the same skater. Trusova's quads were frequently underrotated in the past (almost always, when she was a Junior) and she has improved them, and of course her overall level of skating has significantly improved. As you can see from my PCS though, I believe the field as a whole is still overscored; my PCS for Trusova is still lower than what any Nationals judge gave, it's just comparatively better in relation to other competitors, who were more overscored (EXTREMELY overscored, in some instances).

 

[flanker]

For Blades of Passion not so far ago Trusova was so bad and overscored, now suddenly she is so good and underscored -

It's simply that mysterious improvement a skater achieves in the first second she leaves Eteri in the eyes of those "experts".

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's simply that mysterious improvement a skater achieves in the first second she leaves Eteri in the eyes of those "experts".

Nope, the improvements were already happening last season, when she was with Eteri. You need to stop making incorrect, gaslighting, strawman comments.

 

[flanker]

Nope, the improvements were already happening last season, when she was with Eteri. You need to stop making incorrect, gaslighting, strawman comments.

Then you just marked many users of the forum strawmen. It's not at all limited to Sasha's case, of course, when nearly hated skater becomes the instant darling of particular circles. Which is one of the reasdons why similar claims or "analysis" are not worth a tinker's damn.

Example? A user has seen Sasha's first 3A in a training during autumn 2019. The user makes the claim "I'm finishing with figure skating", because in his eyes that could threaten the user's favourite skater. Then, several months ago, Sasha moves to another team. The very same user becomes very devoted fan of hers. And that's common case here, leading to sudden questioning of score, claims about corrupted judges and all this fun. No reason for me to recognize claims originating in those sentiments.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's not at all limited to Sasha's case, of course, when nearly hated skater becomes the instant darling of particular circles. Which is one of the reasdons why similar claims or "analysis" are not worth a tinker's damn.

This is a fallacy. It's completely normal for someone to dislike a skater's qualities in a particular season/competition, and then like them much more another, solely because of the skating they are showing. It can even be at the same competition; for example I think Valieva has a very good SP, but I heavily dislike her LP.

You're right that some people can sway like the wind because of political/fandom reasons, but please don't include me in that.

 

[anonymoose_au]

It's simply that mysterious improvement a skater achieves in the first second she leaves Eteri in the eyes of those "experts".

Guess it's sort of similar to how for a whole bunch of others leaving Eteri suddenly makes a skater terrible.

Remember Zhenya Med? She went from the golden girl to one of the most hated skaters ever - or if not hated looked at with pity ("Oh poor Zhenya, how could you leave Eteri, you fool") And there were a lot more of those detractors then those who claimed Zhenya was better all of a sudden.

It's almost like ALL people are biased or something.

BTW Sasha has always been my favourite out of her, Aliona and Anna. I loved her "Big Spender" program. I did not suddenly start praising her the second she left Sambo-70.

ETA: And let's not forget those posters who think any skater with talent should go to Crystal without the slightest delay. Liza Tuk and Liza N are the latest candidates because only Team Eteri can really make them shine

 

[Andrea82]

What I would like to see is an explanation of requirements for admission, contents of training, regulations for ethics, etc.

The content of the examination to become ISU judge is the following

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-communications/21311-isu-communication-2258/file

And here (point 3) to become International Judge

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-communications/19656-isu-communication-2224/file

Candidates are proposed by their national federation.

 

[flanker]

Guess it's sort of similar to how for a whole bunch of others leaving Eteri suddenly makes a skater terrible.

Remember Zhenya Med? She went from the golden girl to one of the most hated skaters ever - or if not hated looked at with pity ("Oh poor Zhenya, how could you leave Eteri, you fool") And there were a lot more of those detractors then those who claimed Zhenya was better all of a sudden.

I wonder now now many people who previously celebrated Evgenia started to talk negatively about ehr skating compared to people who were all negative about her previously and started to see her "improvement" behind" any corner (or to be ore precise in every frame taken at her trainings at TCC or at competitions. Which is what I had in mind as one of the examples of course. But I bet this is still quite raw slash, it was talked there and back again for the last two years and I surely think nothing new what wasn't said about that from any angle till now can be found.

It's almost like ALL people are biased or something.

They are and they should know how to work with that. E. g. don't put their claims or "judgements" the way I am the only one smart and everybody else is an amateur, judges are corrupted (when they gave different results) and Eteri has all the universe at her command

BTW Sasha has always been my favourite out of her, Aliona and Anna. I loved her "Big Spender" program. I did not suddenly start praising her the second she left Sambo-70.

There are such. And there are the other ones of sudden fans. Much more loud IMO.

ETA: And let's not forget those posters who think any skater with talent should go to Crystal without the slightest delay. Liza Tuk and Liza N are the latest candidates because only Team Eteri can really make them shine

For years I am hearing "save this or that skater from Eteri". Or similar "skater XYZ could be so great if only was taken from Eteri to ..." Fill the gap, in the past Brian Orser was the name often mentioned in this regard. Sometimes, if you mention Liza's, then I can quote a comment two years old (I once made some buffer of specially memorable lines): "Move to Mishin? Alina? YES!!!!! Yes please!!!!! What a great idea!!!!!!!"
Or, again about Alina: "She's progressively getting worse while Liza and Evgenia are getting better."
And another one: "I think it would be beneficial in the long term for Russian skating if Alina stayed home and Zhenya and Liza went to the Worlds. Eteri should receive a very strong message that her complete inability to train a mature skater is not acceptable."

And those are the ones that could be at least partially considered decent. I have to confess, that Alina's victory at worlds after that load of BS not just here but everywhere brought not just the joy but also the feeling of satisfaction that can be hardly described. It's not only "fans vs. Eteri thing but the pressure that is put on skaters directly.

Little diversion, although I'm sad Alina is not competing and possibly won't be competing anymore, I can understand that after experience she had (from anonymous spectators, but also from some particular important persons of figure skating) she made a testament by her victory at worlds and does other things that make her happy.

Back on the track, people can wish many things and talk about their wishes, but again, they should know the limits. The atmosphere and negativity of those times I reminded by several quotes (at least partially mild) was never ever matched byt anything in any other direction, who tries to say other way simply lies, there is no other word that would describe it properly. What was happening now was somehow close to that. And in between usually the demands placed on Eteri skaters are generally much higher than on other skaters. When a random skater faces growth or maturing, it's natural, when an Eteri skater goes through that, it's the end, errors are exaggerated, no time is given. Anna was sent back to juniors, Eteri was sent to retirement, new juniors were "weak", "Russia will be glad for one medal at junior worlds"... Again, those are not sole cases, that's happening on daily basis here,. sometimes interrupted by moments like when Alina wins worlds, Anna wins nationals for the third time in a row, but when the first shock fades away, the same old story is back.

Of course you can browse the forum and find the occational claim going the other way, but it's cherrypicking. It was pointed by others already, no need to repeat. No doubt Eteri is a significant person, which can be taken both positively and negatively, there surely can be controversy attributed to her (though such would surround nearly any person in her postition) and logically her postition and her personality attracts interest, love and hate at the same time. But both love and hate (also love or hate to other people, including Plushenko himself - this is aimed at people with his picture in avatar, I'm sorry I have to ) shouldn't strip person of reason.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Of course you can browse the forum and find the occational claim going the other way, but it's cherrypicking.

I must have really bad luck then because whenever I pop into the Russian Ladies thread I always wander into the middle of a discussion of why Liza Tuk is wasting everyone's time with her jump layouts, or Sasha's quads are out of control or Aliona sure is dragging her feet in getting her 3A back. Like seriously, I've never wandered in there when any of the skaters I've enjoyed is getting some praise, unless I'm the one doing it - but I already know my opinion so I'm left to wonder if I'm literally watching something different or have no taste or just dreamed the qualities I saw. Too bad I don't enjoy Anna, Kamila and Dasha more, my bad I guess.

No doubt Eteri is a significant person, which can be taken both positively and negatively,

The thing is, and I saw it again you question Eteri's methods and you either get told:

A) You're a hater who just can't appreciate the difficulties of being a coach. Eteri creates champions, suck it up

Or

B) She's only human! She's doing her best, if course she makes mistakes.

But Plushy gets no such leeway, apart from myself and like two other people I've never heard anyone here say a single nice thing about his coaching. Even when the skaters are having fun, that's an issue because they're not taking it seriously enough? But then when the skaters train seriously and fall all over the place or take stretching classes it's like "Oh my God, the torture that's going on there!"

It's like he can't win, no matter what he does it will be wrong, like he would literally have to just stand there completely still, not saying a single word or making a single expression to avoid criticism and even then someone would probably still find some problem with him.

I'm no fan of Eteri's but as a general rule I don't go around bringing her up so I can trash her or going to her personal and teams Instagram to tell her how much she sucks (people do this to the Academy and Plushy, no joke. I'm gonna hope Plushy doesn't read his Insta comments because 90% of them are exactly that "You suck, you're the worst and Russia is ashamed you live here.") Who are these people? I don't know, but it seems like there's a heap of them.

Even on this board I saw someone commenting that Sofia Titova (you know the twice Moscow Novice Champion) should go back to Eteri because she has no personality now. Like...I can't even.

People may have said Anna and Alina should leave Eteri, but only when they were struggling. When Alina won World's and Anna Euros no-one was saying "Get out of there now, girl!"

So like...even when an Academy student is going well they should leave? And of course if they're doing badly they should also leave. So we come back to the same idea - the Academy sucks and should fail. Then just to be annoying about it, they refuse to admit that's what they want. Well, if you don't want the successful students there and you don't want the unsuccessful ones there, then you don't want anyone there. I'd get less upset if people would just own it, you can have that point of view if you want, but don't try and make me question my own sanity.

Anyway on topic and very important, I discovered today that Alexander Volkov was a judge at the Novice Older Age Event. Is this actually allowed? Is the pool of judges so small they have to get a current coach to serve on the panel? Now I'm full of doubts...did Sofia T deserve her win? What was left uncalled? Why didn't anyone say anything? Does this happen on other countries?

 

[Magill]

I wonder now now many people who previously celebrated Evgenia started to talk negatively about ehr skating compared to people who were all negative about her previously and started to see her "improvement" behind" any corner (or to be ore precise in every frame taken at her trainings at TCC or at competitions. Which is what I had in mind as one of the examples of course. But I bet this is still quite raw slash, it was talked there and back again for the last two years and I surely think nothing new what wasn't said about that from any angle till now can be found.



They are and they should know how to work with that. E. g. don't put their claims or "judgements" the way I am the only one smart and everybody else is an amateur, judges are corrupted (when they gave different results) and Eteri has all the universe at her command



There are such. And there are the other ones of sudden fans. Much more loud IMO.



For years I am hearing "save this or that skater from Eteri". Or similar "skater XYZ could be so great if only was taken from Eteri to ..." Fill the gap, in the past Brian Orser was the name often mentioned in this regard. Sometimes, if you mention Liza's, then I can quote a comment two years old (I once made some buffer of specially memorable lines): "Move to Mishin? Alina? YES!!!!! Yes please!!!!! What a great idea!!!!!!!"
Or, again about Alina: "She's progressively getting worse while Liza and Evgenia are getting better."
And another one: "I think it would be beneficial in the long term for Russian skating if Alina stayed home and Zhenya and Liza went to the Worlds. Eteri should receive a very strong message that her complete inability to train a mature skater is not acceptable."

And those are the ones that could be at least partially considered decent. I have to confess, that Alina's victory at worlds after that load of BS not just here but everywhere brought not just the joy but also the feeling of satisfaction that can be hardly described. It's not only "fans vs. Eteri thing but the pressure that is put on skaters directly.

Little diversion, although I'm sad Alina is not competing and possibly won't be competing anymore, I can understand that after experience she had (from anonymous spectators, but also from some particular important persons of figure skating) she made a testament by her victory at worlds and does other things that make her happy.

Back on the track, people can wish many things and talk about their wishes, but again, they should know the limits. The atmosphere and negativity of those times I reminded by several quotes (at least partially mild) was never ever matched byt anything in any other direction, who tries to say other way simply lies, there is no other word that would describe it properly. What was happening now was somehow close to that. And in between usually the demands placed on Eteri skaters are generally much higher than on other skaters. When a random skater faces growth or maturing, it's natural, when an Eteri skater goes through that, it's the end, errors are exaggerated, no time is given. Anna was sent back to juniors, Eteri was sent to retirement, new juniors were "weak", "Russia will be glad for one medal at junior worlds"... Again, those are not sole cases, that's happening on daily basis here,. sometimes interrupted by moments like when Alina wins worlds, Anna wins nationals for the third time in a row, but when the first shock fades away, the same old story is back.

Of course you can browse the forum and find the occational claim going the other way, but it's cherrypicking. It was pointed by others already, no need to repeat. No doubt Eteri is a significant person, which can be taken both positively and negatively, there surely can be controversy attributed to her (though such would surround nearly any person in her postition) and logically her postition and her personality attracts interest, love and hate at the same time. But both love and hate (also love or hate to other people, including Plushenko himself - this is aimed at people with his picture in avatar, I'm sorry I have to ) shouldn't strip person of reason.

Dear flanker,
it is late at night now and I will write you a very honest and personal answer, and please, take it as such and do not slip into your usual sarcasm and battle of words.
I did start watching FS just before 2018 olympics and then got involved during the OG with all the drama and the beauty of it. I had NO premonitions about Evgenya, Alina and Eteri, barely knew who they were and was just getting to find my way about who was who. I tried to understand them all, acknowledging how awkward was the position they all found themselves in, Eteri included. Yes, included.
I started to read this board, out of curiosity, without getting involved (until several months ago).
I was shocked witnessing the amount of criticism and - yes, hate! - poured on a teenage girl, who was seriously injured and just lost her life-long dream - for leaving her coach. That was unbielevable. I also witnessed fierce defence of an adult coach dragging this girl through the mud and disclosing personal communications with her. I could not believe it.
I also witnessed an equally fierce defence of OGM who was completely innocent of course, but basically was not under any attack at this point, at least not comparable. There had been a time before when she was attacked, and I sympathized with her then, too. But that was not the reality anymore. Now she was a bystander - defended by a self-appointed army while not being attacked.
Yes, I am aware it could have been caused by things going on in other media and other forums, but I did not read them so will not comment on them. Here amount of hate towards Zhenya vs Eteri and Alina was truly incomparable.
I was completely unbiased as I did not have any favourites then. Just was learning who they were. That's what I saw.
End of story and good night.

 

[flanker]

I must have really bad luck then because whenever I pop into the Russian Ladies thread I always wander into the middle of a discussion of why Liza Tuk is wasting everyone's time with her jump layouts, or Sasha's quads are out of control or Aliona sure is dragging her feet in getting her 3A back. Like seriously, I've never wandered in there when any of the skaters I've enjoyed is getting some praise, unless I'm the one doing it - but I already know my opinion so I'm left to wonder if I'm literally watching something different or have no taste or just dreamed the qualities I saw. Too bad I don't enjoy Anna, Kamila and Dasha more, my bad I guess.

As for Lizas's bad layout, that was repeated several times with your participation already. One last try. She repeatedly had bad layout of jumps throughout seasons, not just now, which is one of the reasons why she loses many points. You can easily look into the protocols and find out for yourself. It has nothing to do with Plushenko/Tutberidze/Mishin sympathy or antipathy and you can hear that from many people that take holy water whenever they even hear Eteri's name . That Sasha's quads are "out of control"or similar note, I don't know howe many times I heard something in that sense when she was still with Eteri. Of course that for instance after Rostelecom it was discussed more, though never in any way reached the level of things I mentioned previously. What is the current state Aliona's 3A is a completely natural question. When people talk about her current chance to get into the team for worlds compared to Liza or the other Liza or anybody else it doesn't mean it has anything to do with animosity, it has no personal or emotional content. And because people take for grtamted that Anna will be in the team, nearly granted that Sasha will be in a team, naturally there is a discussion who has the chance to be the third. The same way people discuss any skater of interest, without regard to coach or nationality.

The thing is, and I saw it again you question Eteri's methods and you either get told:

A) You're a hater who just can't appreciate the difficulties of being a coach. Eteri creates champions, suck it up

Or

B) She's only human! She's doing her best, if course she makes mistakes.

But Plushy gets no such leeway, apart from myself and like two other people I've never heard anyone here say a single nice thing about his coaching. Even when the skaters are having fun, that's an issue because they're not taking it seriously enough? But then when the skaters train seriously and fall all over the place or take stretching classes it's like "Oh my God, the torture that's going on there!" It's like he can't win, no matter what he does it will be wrong, like he would literally have to just stand there completely still, not saying a single word or making a single expression to avoid criticism and even then someone would probably still find some problem with him.

First. To return it to beginning for a moment, if this is your concern, then I wonder why you do precisely that when you turn any mention of Liza's layout etc. into such thing. Now back to Eteri, of course she makes mistakes. Plushenko makes mistakes. And Mishin makes mistakes. But I haven't seen multiple youtube channels based on one sole thing - to prove how terribly bad people (and coaches) Mishin or Plushenko are. If you ask Eteri¨s fans to be more objective about her and about possible objections towards her, first you have to do the same thing about your favourite, because there's not a trace of objectivity in you when it comes to him. Or to be much more precise, when you think there is something that somehow matters to him, his team or skaters. I've noticed there were at least three different people who said the very same thing to you, so maybe try to listen to them for a moment.

Now I won't speak for other people. For me Plushenko is an inexperienced coach to train a top athlete like Sasha Trusova at this very moment. It's nothing unexpected. Pilot, driver, teacher, they all need experience and time, but they also should take tasks according to their current ability. Being a coach doesn't mean jutst technical side of the thing, it's mental preparation, it's also support and yes, behaving during the competition and after that. If i should make a comparison, jaromír Jágr is probably our most renowned hockey player, I respect his achievements in sport, but that doesn't make him an experienced coach that should take care for national team for instance, if would have shown the interest. I would do everything to prevent him to become a coach of our national team instantly if he would shouw the interest (he doesn't, at least for now, it was an example and I hope I didn't jinx it). For such position you have to show first your abilities.

If he doesn't se it and if his fans don't see it than of course there will be always disagreement between us, till the true experience come. Like pilot starts to gaining experience on smaller planes, acts as a copilot, does tests and all this before he's named a captain of a jumbo jet, coach should make the same way.

I'm no fan of Eteri's but as a general rule I don't go around bringing her up so I can trash her or going to her personal and teams Instagram to tell her how much she sucks (people do this to the Academy and Plushy, no joke. I'm gonna hope Plushy doesn't read his Insta comments because 90% of them are exactly that "You suck, you're the worst and Russia is ashamed you live here.") Who are these people? I don't know, but it seems like there's a heap of them.

And they don't do such things to Eteri, year by year, season by season

Even on this board I saw someone commenting that Sofia Titova (you know the twice Moscow Novice Champion) should go back to Eteri because she has no personality now. Like...I can't even.

People may have said Anna and Alina should leave Eteri, but only when they were struggling. When Alina won World's and Anna Euros no-one was saying "Get out of there now, girl!"

People make and comments like that all the time. When Alina won the olympics, it was actually her who many people openly wanted to go to Plushenko. Again, if you claim this, then I say you ignore reality or "adjust" it. When Kamila skated her FS at nationals, many people wrote "FALL!" in the chat. Hate that Eteri skaters and Eteri herself receive get is hardly comparable to anybody else (maybe to Adelina Sotnikova after Sochi), one just mustn't to ignore it. I repeat what I've written above:
The atmosphere and negativity of those times I reminded by several quotes (at least partially mild) was never ever matched byt anything in any other direction, who tries to say other way simply lies, there is no other word that would describe it properly. What was happening now was somehow close to that.
And remind that many things you consider as a sign of hostility, nate, attack etc. towards Plusheko or Mishin as the examples you gave have nothing to do with that.

So like...even when an Academy student is going well they should leave? And of course if they're doing badly they should also leave. So we come back to the same idea - the Academy sucks and should fail. Then just to be annoying about it, they refuse to admit that's what they want. Well, if you don't want the successful students there and you don't want the unsuccessful ones there, then you don't want anyone there. I'd get less upset if people would just own it, you can have that point of view if you want, but don't try and make me question my own sanity.

Academy students are often leaving through time without anybody wishing it. Just recently Ryabova, Konstantinova. I can go back to what I said, Plushenko is not prepared to coach top skaters in this moment, that's why, to be honest and without hiding it, would be glad if Sasha left because I think there can be better places for her which doesn not necesarilly has to be Khrustalnyi. That's my honest answer, even if I didn't make any public comments on this regard and could easily talk generally or divert it elsewhere.

On the other hand for instance Titova seems to be doing very well in AoP and I see no reason why she should be leaving. Skaters like her, or even Zhilina sisters, are where Plushenko's academy (or any other coaching team, that's general) should start, go through beginnings, gain experience. People remind that there was time when Eteri's school was new. Of course there was. And it did go precisely this way, from the first steps up, not taking the express lift to the top of the Empire State.

Anyway on topic and very important, I discovered today that Alexander Volkov was a judge at the Novice Older Age Event. Is this actually allowed? Is the pool of judges so small they have to get a current coach to serve on the panel? Now I'm full of doubts...did Sofia T deserve her win? What was left uncalled? Why didn't anyone say anything? Does this happen on other countries?

yes, Volkov, and other people involved in teams, esp. from CSKA, take part in judging novice and smaller competitions like this one. He was also at last year's novice championships and no doubtr he will be there again. If people question judging, it is no secret that Moscow lower events are very proCSKA, if you noticed there was a debate in a competition thread today and similar discussionas were there many times. On one hand it's logical, CSKA is simply monster organization withj all the necessary background, know-how, people, specialists etc. But the price is that you have to count with CSKA skaters gaining notably higher PCS and GOE (in the competition threat someone pointed the case from elements where a girl from CSKA gained some huge GOE for quite average 3Lz-3T, it was like +2.2 or something that even the top skaters gain rarely). As for Volkov himsel, he is a part of the system, that's how things work. Though I donť think he in any way could help Titova undeservedly.

 

[flanker]

Dear flanker,
it is late at night now and I will write you a very honest and personal answer, and please, take it as such and do not slip into your usual sarcasm and battle of words.
I did start watching FS just before 2018 olympics and then got involved during the OG with all the drama and the beauty of it. I had NO premonitions about Evgenya, Alina and Eteri, barely knew who they were and was just getting to find my way about who was who. I tried to understand them all, acknowledging how awkward was the position they all found themselves in, Eteri included. Yes, included.
I started to read this board, out of curiosity, without getting involved (until several months ago).
I was shocked witnessing the amount of criticism and - yes, hate! - poured on a teenage girl, who was seriously injured and just lost her life-long dream - for leaving her coach. That was unbielevable. I also witnessed fierce defence of an adult coach dragging this girl through the mud and disclosing personal communications with her. I could not believe it.
I also witnessed an equally fierce defence of OGM who was completely innocent of course, but basically was not under any attack at this point, at least not comparable. There had been a time before when she was attacked, and I sympathized with her then, too. But that was not the reality anymore. Now she was a bystander - defended by a self-appointed army while not being attacked.
Yes, I am aware it could have been caused by things going on in other media and other forums, but I did not read them so will not comment on them. Here amount of hate towards Zhenya vs Eteri and Alina was truly incomparable.
I was completely unbiased as I did not have any favourites then. Just was learning who they were. That's what I saw.
End of story and good night.

It's late night here as well and I can say that claim that you "also witnessed an equally fierce defence of OGM who was completely innocent of course, but basically was not under any attack at this point" is not based in reality. Similarly I state about the other claims you made. You are not right. No sarcasm and good night to you as well.

 

[Shayuki]

Dear flanker,
it is late at night now and I will write you a very honest and personal answer, and please, take it as such and do not slip into your usual sarcasm and battle of words.
I did start watching FS just before 2018 olympics and then got involved during the OG with all the drama and the beauty of it. I had NO premonitions about Evgenya, Alina and Eteri, barely knew who they were and was just getting to find my way about who was who. I tried to understand them all, acknowledging how awkward was the position they all found themselves in, Eteri included. Yes, included.
I started to read this board, out of curiosity, without getting involved (until several months ago).
I was shocked witnessing the amount of criticism and - yes, hate! - poured on a teenage girl, who was seriously injured and just lost her life-long dream - for leaving her coach. That was unbielevable. I also witnessed fierce defence of an adult coach dragging this girl through the mud and disclosing personal communications with her. I could not believe it.
I also witnessed an equally fierce defence of OGM who was completely innocent of course, but basically was not under any attack at this point, at least not comparable. There had been a time before when she was attacked, and I sympathized with her then, too. But that was not the reality anymore. Now she was a bystander - defended by a self-appointed army while not being attacked.
Yes, I am aware it could have been caused by things going on in other media and other forums, but I did not read them so will not comment on them. Here amount of hate towards Zhenya vs Eteri and Alina was truly incomparable.
I was completely unbiased as I did not have any favourites then. Just was learning who they were. That's what I saw.
End of story and good night.

First of all, Medvedeva and the coaching change. It's not for leaving her coach, exactly, it's the manner in which it was done. Correct procedure wasn't followed of course, and to me it's basic human decency to not just leave someone you were with since 6 years of age simply by cutting off all connection. Describing it as "leaving her coach" is just ridiculous. People change coaches all the time, it wouldn't even have been a big deal had it been carried out properly.

Alina didn't deserve protection? TAT on national TV told Alina's father how she didn't deserve to win and they preferred Medvedeva. Echoed by many Russian figure skating personalities. Eteri was completely biased and wanted Medvedeva to win 100%, in fact after Alina won Alina didn't even dare to smile because she knew everyone wanted Medvedeva to win instead. Afterwards Eteri didn't even congratulate Alina and barely even mentioned her when talking about the Olympics. Of course, with something like this going on, is it a surprise that people aren't very fond of Medvedeva then pretending that Eteri somehow betrayed her? She just wasn't good enough and needed to accept it. The whole notion was completely ridiculous.

Alina couldn't celebrate her victory, she didn't even feel like she should feel happy about it. "But she wasn't being attacked", give me a break.


Right, a disclaimer. I preferred Medvedeva and thought she deserved to win, I think Alina's PCS was too high. I even said this immediately after Olympics in her fan fest. Does that mean I'm blind to what was going on? Nope.

 

[Magill]

First of all, Medvedeva and the coaching change. It's not for leaving her coach, exactly, it's the manner in which it was done. Correct procedure wasn't followed of course, and to me it's basic human decency to not just leave someone you were with since 6 years of age simply by cutting off all connection. Describing it as "leaving her coach" is just ridiculous. People change coaches all the time, it wouldn't even have been a big deal had it been carried out properly.

Alina didn't deserve protection? TAT on national TV told Alina's father how she didn't deserve to win and they preferred Medvedeva. Echoed by many Russian figure skating personalities. Eteri was completely biased and wanted Medvedeva to win 100%, in fact after Alina won Alina didn't even dare to smile because she knew everyone wanted Medvedeva to win instead. Afterwards Eteri didn't even congratulate Alina and barely even mentioned her when talking about the Olympics. Of course, with something like this going on, is it a surprise that people aren't very fond of Medvedeva then pretending that Eteri somehow betrayed her? She just wasn't good enough and needed to accept it. The whole notion was completely ridiculous.

Alina couldn't celebrate her victory, she didn't even feel like she should feel happy about it. "But she wasn't being attacked", give me a break.


Right, a disclaimer. I preferred Medvedeva and thought she deserved to win, I think Alina's PCS was too high. I even said this immediately after Olympics in her fan fest. Does that mean I'm blind to what was going on? Nope.

As I said,
"There had been a time before when she was attacked, and I sympathized with her then, too. But that was not the reality anymore."
Yes, I remember that. But that has changed, And people's reaction did not.
Sometimes we just go on fighting and having started as defenders, we become the attackers, never willing to admit it has become so.
As for whatever Zhenya did then, I don't find it outrageous at all but even if, she was just a broken teenager, deserved some slack.
Really?