Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[anonymoose_au]

As for Volkov himsel, he is a part of the system, that's how things work.

Well I didn't mean to suggest he was automatically biased (although the Instagram post I saw about heavily hinted this was the case), but seriously is this a thing elsewhere in the skating world? If not this is pretty alarming, it'd be like having the coach of the B grade soccer team being the ref at the game the A-grade team is in. Sure they can endeavour to be objective and maybe succeed at doing so, but it'd never fly with fans.

What about tech specialists and controllers? Surely they can't be practicing coaches as well? That would bring ever competition into question...

For me Plushenko is an inexperienced coach to train a top athlete like Sasha Trusova at this very moment. It's nothing unexpected.

OK fine, but if we accept the story that Sasha approach Plushy herself and asked him to be her coach (maybe you don't accept this, but I haven't heard even Plushy's biggest critics dispute it) what exactly did you expect him to do?

Say "Oh sorry Sasha I couldn't possibly, I've just started out. It's great you think I could help you, but I really can't." Talk about a career ruining move! Do you think if he had people would have said "That Plushenko, such a level head on his shoulders, admitting he doesn't have the experience. Well done!"

Hell no, they would have dragged him so hard and mocked him for being too cowardly to take Sasha on. And what promising future student would go with in 10 metres of a coach with that attitude? He'd be an absolute laughing stock!

Do you actually believe if Yuna Kim had approached Eteri with she was staring out she would have turned her away with excuses about "Not being experienced enough"? No way.

She repeatedly had bad bayout of jumps throughout seasons, not just now, which is one of the reasons why she loses many points.

But there's forever an undercurrent that she and Mishin are doing it on purpose, no consideration is given to it maybe being a difficult decision that they came to together after much thought and experience. No, it's always that these professionals who have been skaters for decades are so idiotic they don't know how to maximize points. Do you honestly believe Liza and Mishin are that stupid? Honestly?

When Eteri and co insisted on Sasha doing less quads did anyone blast them for the cardinal sin of not maximizing Sasha's scoring potential? Because all I saw were posters praising the decision and calling Sasha a fool for not listening.

But there's like a huge portion of posters here who are practically foaming at the mouth for Liza to attempt all her most difficult elements in the bonus half. Why? I can only assume they want to see her completely fail the layout and go "LOL what a loser." As a fan of Liza it would break my heart to see her have a performance as nightmarish as Sasha's Rostelecom FS. How anyone who enjoys watching skating would want to see such a horrible thing I can't fathom.

On the other hand for instance Titova seems to be doing very well in AoP and I see no reason why she should be leaving.

Maybe you don't but there were others on the thread who most certainly did. I couldn't even answer their ridiculous suggestion because words failed me. What could I possibly say to someone who saw Sofia's high energy, fun, utterly charming SP and thought "Well, no personality there." Like did we even watch the same program? Was I high?!

Maybe I shouldn't care about other people's opinions because 9 times out of 10 they make no sense at all to me. I'm not kidding when I say it makes me doubt my own perception.

 

[Skatesocs]

But there's forever an undercurrent that she and Mishin are doing it on purpose,

No, there isn't. Sorry, but this is your own interpretation of what happens in the thread.

 

[Finley]

As I said,
"There had been a time before when she was attacked, and I sympathized with her then, too. But that was not the reality anymore."
Yes, I remember that. But that has changed, And people's reaction did not.
Sometimes we just go on fighting and having started as defenders, we become the attackers, never willing to admit it has become so.
As for whatever Zhenya did then, I don't find it outrageous at all but even if, she was just a broken teenager, deserved some slack.
Really?

This is your perception. It is not reality. I could provide many examples to prove this point but I am not going to do that here in this thread. It would be off-topic.

Also, I don't really think you want me to. If I am wrong and you really want specifics regarding all the ways in which the OGM continues to be attacked just me send a message. Or just search her name on Twitter. It's not hard to find.

 

[anonymoose_au]

No, there isn't. Sorry, but this is your own interpretation of what happens in the thread.

Now I know you're gaslighting me...here's some choice comments by various posters the last time Liza's layout woes was brought up (names removed)

Liza...why not 2 3As?

I dunno, dude, maybe because they're HARD? May as well ask Aliona and Zhenya Med "Why no quads?" Now people do and annoys the Hell out of me, quads are hard! Do people really believe these girls wouldn't give anything to be able to do them?They say there's no stupid questions, but that one surely is.

Liza was Liza. I don’t know what more to comment. Mishin girls really need to work on maximizing their scoring potential. I don’t know if this is coaching style?

What coach's coaching style is "Bad layouts with enough points left on the table to hold a banquet"? How can this be seen as anything less than insulting to Mishin's intelligence? Even the dumb as a box of hammers Plushenko knows better than this. Just because you word something politely doesn't mean it's not rude as Hell, people do it all the time.

To be honest prefer people just be blunt, false politeness brimming with backhanded compliments hits my anger button so hard. If you think someone's an idiot just come right out and say it. Don't spit on my head and tell me it's raining.

 

[Skatesocs]

Now I know you're gaslighting me

There's no real need to continue the discussion then is there? But I will again respond to this sentence:

But there's forever an undercurrent that she and Mishin are doing it on purpose

No, no one is saying Mishin and Tuktamysheva are "doing it on purpose" - by which I assume you mean we all think they CAN do it but choose not to. All the posts you respond to and have quoted here consist of people voicing their confusion about why she simply cannot - which I know because I have done that before.

But by all means, continue complaining about how people you tend to misread, resulting in you stopping the thread for 10-15 pages with you repeatedly being told that you're just wrong, are all people who are simply doing it to emotionally abuse you on a skating forum (because yeah, we all have the time and energy and interest) - it's most certainly not got anything to do with you taking all the various comments 100% personally and having even less charity of thought towards the people who disagree with you than you think people have towards Tuktamysheva and Mishin. It's an even bigger conspiracy than the one against Plushenko, we all had a meeting.

If you think someone's an idiot just come right out and say it. Don't spit on my head and tell me it's raining.

Do you really want me to? Because I really want to.

 

[anonymoose_au]

All the posts you respond to and have quoted here consist of people voicing their confusion about why she simply cannot - which I know because I have done that before.

This is where you lose me, where's the confusion? Liza can't do it, that's why she ISN'T doing it. It's that obvious!

As to why? One last time for the people in the back Quadsand3Asarereallybloodyhard

Do people really need this explained to them? If they were easy everyone would do them!

It would be one thing if Liza had ever in her career done her 3A in the second half or done quads in actual competition. But she has not. For an entire decade, for her entire skating career she never has.

She cannot do it! Perhaps that makes her a disappointment to you, fine. Accept it and move on. Discussions about it are not helpful nor do they provide any great insights, they're just annoying. Go back to rhapsodising Anna and Kamila's effortless quads if that's what your looking for, stop trying to bend Liza into a skater she can never be.

 

[Skatesocs]

Accept it and move on.

We won't.

Discussions about it are not helpful

For you.

This is where you lose me, where's the confusion? Liza can't do it, that's why she ISN'T doing it. It's that obvious!

And this obviously means I and others are gaslighting you, and not just that we have a different perceptions.

As to why? One last time for the people in the back Quadsand3Asarereallybloodyhard

As to why we ask? One more time for you: others have been able to do it before with practice

Maybe you should accept that people just don't think like you and you don't get to dictate how others use the forum? Instead of accusing them of being trolls? Since you are talking about what seems to be an "undercurrent" in the thread from Eteri fans, I'll just say that Plushenko fans seem to think they are real martyrs and have little interest in acknowledging there is such a thing as public opinion - the ones who disagree are obviously out to get them in some manner.

 

[anonymoose_au]

One more time for you: others have been able to do it before with practice

Once again you're suggesting that this radical thought hasn't occurred to Liza and Mishin. So you expect them to film every second from every practice session to prove it to you?

Are you of the opinion that Jason Brown obviously isn't trying hard enough because he still can't land a quad?

I thought skaters like Anna and Kamila were supposed to be exceptional, but you seem to be of the opinion that any skater anywhere could reach their level if they just try harder.

Well, fine as a Liza fan I will say it...Liza simply doesn't have the talent to match Anna and Kamila, she could practice until her feet bleed and she's broken every bone in her body, it will not happen.

Once again sorry this disappoints you, but there's plenty of skaters who have the talents Liza lacks. Why even bother following her if her inability to do these super hard programs aggravate you so much?

It would be like me claiming to enjoy Kamila's skating, but it'd be perfect if it wasn't so bendy. Love the jumps, but those hyper extended positions are too much.

It's ridiculous.

 

[Skatesocs]

It would be great if a mod can delete the load of balls in the past two pages.

I see @el henry is around.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yes, the discussion has uselessly strayed...this thread is about the bad judging/judging corruption that has been called out by Plushenko.

Still waiting for someone to try and justify the scores at Nationals in a detailed writeup. So far the closest anyone has come, is an opinion that Shcherbakova was "only" overscored by 8 points between both programs, so we shouldn't worry about it. At this rate I will be Rose DeWiit Bukater, sitting on my death bed thinking about the Titanic secrets buried at the bottom of the sea, before any answer comes. "It's been 84 years, and I don't even have a picture, it exits now only in my memory..."

 

[Skatesocs]

At this rate I will be Rose DeWiit Bukater, sitting on my death bed thinking about the Titanic secrets buried at the bottom of the sea, before any answer comes. "It's been 84 years, and I don't even have a picture, it exits now only in my memory..."

Well, at least you can watch this when you're doing that:

 

[sinus]

Still waiting for someone to try and justify the scores at Nationals in a detailed writeup.

What details do you want? Trusova's jumps are cheated, her artistry is below average, and PCS 6.0 is all she deserves. And it's not my opinion. It's yours.

 

[sinus]

Valieva's LP is extremely overscored on PCS (and I'm someone who loves her SP), the interpretation is awful

Yeah, sure

 

[anonymoose_au]

Yes, the discussion has uselessly strayed...this thread is about the bad judging/judging corruption that has been called out by Plushenko.

You mentioned before you were a judge? What's your take on the fact that current coach Alexander Volkov was on the judging panel of the elder Novice ladies competition? Is this something that happens elsewhere? I'm honestly concerned about it and had no idea :/ It has dodginess written all over it.

 

[Magill]

This is your perception. It is not reality. I could provide many examples to prove this point but I am not going to do that here in this thread. It would be off-topic.

Also, I don't really think you want me to. If I am wrong and you really want specifics regarding all the ways in which the OGM continues to be attacked just me send a message. Or just search her name on Twitter. It's not hard to find.

In the end of the day, all we have is just our perceptions. It is true just as much for me as for you.
One can bring in examples to support any thesis of choice, really. But sometimes we discuss the trees and sometimes - the wood.
I don't use Twitter.
And I was answering to someone and referring specifically to what was going on at this very board and what was posted here - and not the entire universe. And I was very clear about that.
It is true it is off topic anyway. Have a good weekend.

 

[flanker]

Just some short answers to particular moments, because the others are reacted by skatesocks and would lead to repeated arguments at nauseam.

Well I didn't mean to suggest he was automatically biased (although the Instagram post I saw about heavily hinted this was the case), but seriously is this a thing elsewhere in the skating world? If not this is pretty alarming, it'd be like having the coach of the B grade soccer team being the ref at the game the A-grade team is in. Sure they can endeavour to be objective and maybe succeed at doing so, but it'd never fly with fans.

What about tech specialists and controllers? Surely they can't be practicing coaches as well? That would bring ever competition into question...

It's not a thing I'm happy with but there are things in the world you simply have to accpet. After all, in the final result this proCSKA judging at this level of competitions or Volkov being among judges didn't hold other talented skaters at the bottom forever.

OK fine, but if we accept the story that Sasha approach Plushy herself and asked him to be her coach (maybe you don't accept this, but I haven't heard even Plushy's biggest critics dispute it) what exactly did you expect him to do?

Say "Oh sorry Sasha I couldn't possibly, I've just started out. It's great you think I could help you, but I really can't." Talk about a career ruining move! Do you think if he had people would have said "That Plushenko, such a level head on his shoulders, admitting he doesn't have the experience. Well done!"

One thing is, let's say, "leaving the choice of a coach on a skater" (though I have very strong suspision that it was Sasha's father in the first place who made this decicion). The other thing is expressing an opinion whether it is a good choice or not. I think it was a bad choice

Hell no, they would have dragged him so hard and mocked him for being too cowardly to take Sasha on. And what promising future student would go with in 10 metres of a coach with that attitude? He'd be an absolute laughing stock!

Do you actually believe if Yuna Kim had approached Eteri with she was staring out she would have turned her away with excuses about "Not being experienced enough"? No way.

At what moment? In 2010, when she left Orser (BTW a case showing that leaving a coach can be surrounded by heavy controversy doesn't happen only in Russia ), I presume Yuna didn't even know who Eteri is. At 2014 Yuna retired, so no chance. But, truly hypothetically, let's say Yuna would express her wish to train under Eteri in 2010, yes, she would probably accept her (though we can't say for sure, she once said she's not very much interested in taking skaters from abroad, Lilbet and Morisi are foreigners just formally; on the other hand if Shoma Uno would express his wish to stay in Khrustalnyi after the summer camp in 2019 he would've been probably not expelled ), but fans would surely question that decision and rightfully. It's not about the name and different standard for Eteri and Plushenko, it's about the position they take at particular moment. And that's it. I personally don't say Plushy should be prohibited from training Sasha (and contrary to you I don't see other people doing that too), when I talk about it it's because I think it was a bad decision.

But there's forever an undercurrent that she and Mishin are doing it on purpose, no consideration is given to it maybe being a difficult decision that they came to together after much thought and experience. No, it's always that these professionals who have been skaters for decades are so idiotic they don't know how to maximize points. Do you honestly believe Liza and Mishin are that stupid? Honestly?

Talked there and back many times on GS, reacted by skatesocks also. I would just repeat that you hear that opinion even by people who definitely are not Eteri fans at all.

When Eteri and co insisted on Sasha doing less quads did anyone blast them for the cardinal sin of not maximizing Sasha's scoring potential? Because all I saw were posters praising the decision and calling Sasha a fool for not listening.

When Sahsa skated under Eteri in fact Eteri was blamed for "forcing Sasha to jump more quads than necessary". Then when she left and it turned out that one of the big points of disagreement was precisely the exact opposite and Eteri tried to persuade Sasha to do less quads to gain higher quality and security of the jumps, the same people started to praise Plushenko that he "will allow Sasha to jump as many quads as she wants". Now they suddenly found that less is more. That's all what I can say about it.

But there's like a huge portion of posters here who are practically foaming at the mouth for Liza to attempt all her most difficult elements in the bonus half. Why? I can only assume they want to see her completely fail the layout and go "LOL what a loser." As a fan of Liza it would break my heart to see her have a performance as nightmarish as Sasha's Rostelecom FS. How anyone who enjoys watching skating would want to see such a horrible thing I can't fathom.

Maybe you don't but there were others on the thread who most certainly did. I couldn't even answer their ridiculous suggestion because words failed me. What could I possibly say to someone who saw Sofia's high energy, fun, utterly charming SP and thought "Well, no personality there." Like did we even watch the same program? Was I high?!

Maybe I shouldn't care about other people's opinions because 9 times out of 10 they make no sense at all to me. I'm not kidding when I say it makes me doubt my own perception.

Again, I think this is more your interpretation of facts than facts themselves. Liza's layouts are put under discussion for a long time without any relation to Eteri or Plushenko. If people's opinions bother you so much than truly you shouldn't pay attention to them (Well, I shouldn't give such advise, because I don't act upon that much as well ).

 

[Tolstoj]

Late to the party, I don't think Plushenko did a mistake here, but i'll extend the complaint to most of the Russian Cup events for the Ladies, and most importantly this is not just him vs her, cause the other skaters are waay more screwed than the Angels of Plushenko.

It's not just Nationals, we're talking at least 5-6 domestic events with very questionable judging, way more than your typical Nationals.

This season was nothing like the previous ones, the message was very clear from the start: no matter what, skaters from That group must win or always be on the podium, even with 2-3 falls and stumbles. It's clear to me Valieva has almost already guaranteed a spot at the Olympics, and Shcherbakova might well be the second so it's almost like they have to protect the queen. Trusova is the one more at risk of losing right now and it's not entirely up to her.

The way the system was exploited was very ridiculous, with +5 across the board when needed to save one of them, "bonus spin" (a rule that doesn't even exist for ISU, they created to make the judging even more arbitrary in Russia), insane GOE for a jump even in a program with 2 falls. Nothing mattered anymore, they were all cooking Sambo70 victories.

That's not to undervalue the talent, in general Tutberidze has the best group in Ladies in Russia, you can question the sometimes lame packaging (for the level these skaters show, i expect way more than this) but the athletic abilities are totally there. So in the end they are all cheering for the winning team, which is understandable but also defeats Figure Skating as a sport since it's no longer fair competition.

At first i thought it was due to the quads, they want to push ladies with quads so they'll help their scores, but Trusova has quads too and doesn't get nowhere near the same extra help, her scores are mostly in line to what she got internationally when she skated clean.

It's good someone at least tries to call out the nonsense, i'm a little worried RusFed will just ignore and continue which is just bad for the sport.

 

[anonymoose_au]

And that's it. I personally don't say Plushy should be prohibited from training Sasha (and contrary to you I don't see other people doing that too), when I talk about it it's because I think it was a bad decision.

But your opinion on that seems purely based on the fact you don't respect Plushy as a person. You didn't enjoy his skating or personality so obviously he's a crap coach too.

For example Stephane Lambiel now coaches Shoma Uno and Satoko two extremely accomplished skaters, he also hasn't been a coach very long (longer than Plushy but he's no veteran) yet not once has anyone dissed him.

And just the other day Polina Tsurskaya was at the Moscow Novice Championships, she was referred to as a coach. She literally started at Crystal a few months ago, yet no-one is jumping up and down and insisting she's not a coach. Maxim Trankov pre-empted everyone and insisted he wasn't a coach, but he really helped T/M and people called him their coach. Aljona S started coaching Ashley and Tim without even announcing her retirement, everyone was excited.

Plushy is the only exception, the only one who doesn't deserve to be called a coach and it's not because of how long he's been coaching it is simply because most posters here Just. Don't. Like. Him. How is that fair? Most of you seem unwilling to even give him a chance, which would be fine if every coach starting out was treated in this manner, but they aren't. And it adds insult to injury they people won't admit and hide behind semantics and claims that Plushy is just too new of a coach. Be honest, Plushy could be a coach for 20 years and you'd still feel that way. Why do people refuse to own it?

And you didn't answer my question, did you actually expect Plushy to refuse to take Sasha on because he's such a novice coach? Or are you suggesting the Sasha acted unreasonably by expecting him to be her coach in the first place. Once again it's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. No matter what decision Plushy made, he was going to get criticised either way, that being the case good for him for taking on Sasha.

Also like Eteri, Plushy doesn't work alone, he has a team, when posters deride the Academy they insult all the people working there. Do you deny that Dima Mikhailov has done an amazing job so far? He's low-key and works hard, why does he deserve to be sneered at just because he works at the Academy. Were he a Crystal coach he'd probably have a little fanclub instead of being a joke.

Liza's layouts are put under discussion for a long time without any relation to Eteri or Plushenko.

Yes I went totally off topic there, it had nothing to do with either Eteri or Plushy, it did have to do with Mishin though, a coach I greatly admire, who a lot of people have no respect for at all.

Then when she left and it turned out that one of the big points of disagreement was precisely the exact opposite and Eteri tried to persuade Sasha to do less quads

Are you sure? I definitely remember hearing about Eteri and co. wanting Sasha to do less quads before she left and that Sasha didn't want to.

My point is when Sasha does do less quads she can't win and she knows this. It was true under Eteri (as so many are keen to point out) and it's true with the Academy. Sasha wants to win, she didn't come to skating to look pretty. What's the point of doing a beautiful quad Lutz and lovely quad toe just so she can lose to Anna by 10 points instead of 20? Nuts to that, if you're gonna lose at least lose trying your best rather than holding back. The motto of the Olympics is Higher. Faster. Stronger not Safer. Careful. Meek.

 

[Skatesocs]

Well, it will all be moved to the coaching thread, now.

For example Stephane Lambiel now coaches Shoma Uno and Satoko two extremely accomplished skaters, he also hasn't been a coach very long (longer than Plushy but he's no veteran) yet not once has anyone dissed him.

Lambiel coaches Kihira, not Miyahara. He wasn't coaching top level athletes before them - and they both got immediate results after moving to him (Uno won the 2020 National Championship + Challenge Cup 2020 with all his jumps seemingly back + a National Silver this season). Kihira continued her reign as National Champ - with a newly landed 4S.

And just the other day Polina Tsurskaya was at the Moscow Novice Championships, she was referred to as a coach. She literally started at Crystal a few months ago, yet no-one is jumping up and down and insisting she's not a coach. Maxim Trankov pre-empted everyone and insisted he wasn't a coach, but he really helped T/M and people called him their coach. Aljona S started coaching Ashley and Tim without even announcing her retirement, everyone was excited.

I'm *sure* you see the difference between Plushenko and all of them. It's not because people just don't like him.

Mishin though, a coach I greatly admire, who a lot of people have no respect for at all.

He is repeatedly credited with teaching people strong jumps. He is rightly criticised for giving them watered down programs.

Nuts to that, if you're gonna lose at least lose trying your best rather than holding back. The motto of the Olympics is Higher. Faster. Stronger not Safer. Careful. Meek.

I'm sure you see the irony here vs what people say about Tuktamysheva, too.

Everything you said boils down to you not liking less than positive comments about the skaters you like.

 

[Blades of Passion]

What's your take on the fact that current coach Alexander Volkov was on the judging panel of the elder Novice ladies competition? Is this something that happens elsewhere? I'm honestly concerned about it and had no idea :/ It has dodginess written all over it.

There have been similar instances, but as far as I know, nobody has ever had a direct student in the discipline they are judging. For "serious" competitions that is. I'm not sure exactly what the situation is with Volkov.

What details do you want? Trusova's jumps are cheated, her artistry is below average, and PCS 6.0 is all she deserves. And it's not my opinion. It's yours.

The way you continue to miss the point, contort people's words, and pretend that an individual skaters' programs don't vary in quality, is certainly an agenda. What was your reason for very recently joining the forum and posting incorrect statements such as "the Technical Committee wants to implement an Artistic Program without any jumps at all"? That's never been something a tech committee member has proposed, either in public or in any private conversations I've had.