Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations | Page 18 | Golden Skate

Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

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The great prima ballerina "Natalia Osipova" has actually commented on Kamila's Bolero, and it was only praises :love2:
When was the last time we heard a Bolshoi ballerina praising a skater? I think it was never! That in itself speaks volume about how well she is performing.

Meanwhile internet judges can write essays after essays criticizing Kamila's Bolero performance and telling us about how Michelle's mediocre layback spin is the ultimate expression of music.
 
When was the last time we heard a Bolshoi ballerina praising a skater? I think it was never!
Actually, a Bolshoi ballerina named Maya Pliteskaya (perhaps you've heard of her) did praise a skater once:


Interviewer: I cannot not ask you about Plushenko.

Maya P: He is our favourite. He is so good that it looks like nobody can beat him. I can't imagine who can be better. He is a master, a great master who does everything beautifully, brilliantly and artistically. Also, he always looks so confident that we, his fans, cannot be not confident. He skates like an artist who knows that he is the best. Other skaters think that they are good too, but they have doubts and get nervous. Plushenko on the contrary always knows that he is much better than others, and he convinces all of us in it. He not just "works" on ice, he dances on ice masterly, and that is a wonderful thing to see.

Interviewer: What do you think about his appearance?

Maya P: I think his appearance is fine. He is tall, striking, with a handsome body and long arms. He is not some cute guy from the postcard, thanks god he is not!, but he has the perfect face for the stage. The ice is the stage too.

Interviewer: Who does he remind you among ballet dancers?

Maya P: He looks like Godunov, the Russian ballet dancer. The same type- tall, handsome, self-confident, with long waving in the wind and pirouettes blond hair. In ballet he would be perfect at parts performed by Godunov. He has the temperament and virtuosity for that.

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For me the discussion is not about any skater. It is about credibility of judging under the present system.
When I was watching competitions in the past, the 6.0 "artistic impression" score was not only subjective, it was designed to be subjective simply because it was an "impression", and impressions cannot be objective. So, although spectators could agree or disagree, praise or hate, it was still their impression against the judge's impression.
Now the current system is designed to be objective. Thus, when I started watching competitions under the new system, I expected that the issue of "impression" would be irrelevant for judges, and PCS would slowly be also better and better understandable for spectators. When I had no time to try and learn I just shrugged off my doubts thinking that if my "impressions" did not match the score, it was just my ignorance.

What I found after studying the rules and asking questions is that the tools for making PCS objective are restricted to maybe just a half of the rules, and even those are not always applied. And the training for those who apply the rules does not include the requirements of having professional skating or coaching experience or related fields study. So the "impression" still rules.
 
The great prima ballerina "Natalia Osipova" has actually commented on Kamila's Bolero, and it was only praises :love2:
When was the last time we heard a Bolshoi ballerina praising a skater? I think it was never! That in itself speaks volume about how well she is performing.

Meanwhile internet judges can write essays after essays criticizing Kamila's Bolero performance and telling us about how Michelle's mediocre layback spin is the ultimate expression of music.
For some people being the most unacknowleged genius among unacknowledged geniuses is the meaning of life. To argue with them is futile because they build fortresses and missiles of arguments in their imaginary world. The good thing though is that those "geniuses" are and will be unacknowledged by the real world.

As for the topic, the more I think about it the more I feel for Pluschenko. His intentions to build a school that can compete with Sambo are very good for the Russian figure skating. It should be a new school as CSKA is too conservative and St. Petersburg is too dependent on Mishin who is going to be 80 quite soon. Plushy's problem is that he cannot control his emotions. May be he will learn something now that he received so many bashes from very different parties.

And I am glad that my life is easier than that of many people here. I have no vested interests in supporting any of specific coaches. My only vested interest is in Russian ladies in general. I want them to remain the best in the world in the years to come. I want them to not stop bringing me positive emotions and joy. So far, they are doing fine...
 
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Actually, a Bolshoi ballerina named Maya Pliteskaya (perhaps you've heard of her) did praise a skater once:




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Lol, when I read @Anoosheh 's post, I also thought about sharing this interview here, but you beat me to it! :biggrin:
 
Actually, a Bolshoi ballerina named Maya Pliteskaya (perhaps you've heard of her) did praise a skater once:

Cool! But that doesn't change the main point of my comment.

And the context of these comments are somewhat different.
In the case of Kamila she's skating to a balletic piece and a prima ballerina gave her the thumbs up for "progression of her accents, rhythm and presentation" of that specific piece. It is a big deal because a prima ballerina knows best how a balletic piece should be interpreted.
 
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Cool! But that doesn't change the main point of my comment.

And the context of these comments are somewhat different.
In the case of Kamila she's skating to a balletic piece and a prima ballerina gave her the thumbs up for "progression of her accents, rhythm and presentation" of that specific piece. It is a big deal because a prima ballerina knows best how a balletic piece should be interpreted.
It's still high praise no doubt, but she was happy with how it's progressing. So yes it's great that a prima ballerina can see the potential there in the program, but no one is saying it's a done deal or that it will get there for sure.

I always thought of this being a long-term project for Kamila. To my eyes she isn't close to being there with the performance yet. What I do see is that in her performances different parts stick out and are done well each time, so she just has to piece it all together with some tweaks in the choreography + even more confidence and commitment in the movements which will come naturally.

She can't do it because it was Alina's Olympics, but I think Kamila with Swan Lake would be an absolutely incredible sight. It would be perfect.
 
Can I bring a different example from Scherbakova's firebird? The whole program drove me crazy but here's 13 seconds (2:50-3:03) in the run up to and including her combination. The music has 3 very clear high points - you can't miss them. Anna does a little change foot hop, a big waltz jump, and lands two jumps - any of those things would have belonged on the dramatic beats of the music. Instead those are all done on the quiet parts, and on the big beats Daniil has her doing a crossover, a step, and a crossback.
It's obvious that the whole sequence was not choreographed with the music. She does almost the exact same steps into her lutz loop in this year's free. They're transitions, but they're not choreography. I don't put any blame on the girls. They can perform their socks off, but if the choreography doesn't match the music there is nothing they can do about it.
 
The great prima ballerina "Natalia Osipova" has actually commented on Kamila's Bolero, and it was only praises :love2:
When was the last time we heard a Bolshoi ballerina praising a skater? I think it was never! That in itself speaks volume about how well she is performing.
It says nothing at all about musical interpretation. People gush about others all the time just because they like the way they look or the hype surrounding that person or whatever other reason. Other dancers have seen skating programs and criticized the musicality, there are countless counter examples. Although, people rarely take the time to publicly criticize such things, because usually they don't get anything out of it. Public skating criticism is (unfortunately) not much of a business, as compared to literary or film criticism, which are fields that also allow someone to be a university professor.

What does say a lot is that you don't seem to understand the value of a well positioned layback (or whatever other move) with music. People who've only watched skating in the new era probably think a layback is supposed the same combination of sideways and catch-foot positions (which are often poorly positioned) that don't do anything with the music. Although they may not see it as ugly or understand why it fails to be with the music, because they've never seen it performed differently.

Here's a more "modern" layback that did actually work with the music - Notice how the changes of body or arm position are always with the musical changes. The movement now has purpose. It's not just there for the sake of it, because the rules require it, thrown on top of the music for no reason. Even this layback is something very few people do anymore, because instead of starting with an ACTUAL layback position, and holding it for 8 revolutions no less, most people these days instead use the boring "illusion turn entry" (which often should not be enough to count as a "difficult entry"), directly into a sideways position, and then nothing but catch-foot positions afterward. There are very few real layback positions found in the layback spin these days, it's extremely sad.

Who told you what she "need" and what is "proper" here? That (and the whole post) is just ridiculous.

Just because you have no comprehension of something, that doesn't make it ridiculous. Music has meaning, emotion, shape. To interpret it, the skater music be listening to it, following it, moving their body with it. A very basic thing everyone can understand, is that at the end of a program if music is "big and exciting", then the skater should be too. If you compare the music used by Sotnikova and Lipnitskaia in 2014 for example, the music of those programs call for totally different endings. Hence why Sotnikova ends with her arm thrown over her head and a big smile, while Lipnitskaia ends her program far more quietly and reserved. This is the most basic example possible of musical interpretation and how it operates. EVERY part of a program is the same thing, and there is a complexity and nuance to what the choreography and interpretation should be, in order to work with the music.

I'd agree that's lots of her moves aren't choreographed to the exact beat of the music, but there are missed moments in Karolina's Bolero too I thought. Personally I think very few programs truly match their music, I'm almost always thinking about how I'd do things differently.

There are no programs at all in the recent years that fully work with the music. It's nearly impossible with the footwork sequences these days to do something completely faithful to the music. I'm pretty sure there isn't a single footwork sequence I've seen since 2015 that can be said to be fully musical. Hanyu's footwork in the Chopin program is maybe the closest? Even there is he clearly cramming in extra turns that are unnecessary and detract from what an ideal choreography and interpretation should be.

This is part of why the judging is so horrible. Extremely high PCS are being thrown out for programs that clearly have a failure to be musical, that fail to show cohesive and meaningful choreography, that fail to create real emotion and pictures on the ice. We've even had the "choreography sequence" element where people should be able to show more expressive and completely musical, but it's been totally disappointing for the most part, and horribly judged.

Again going back to Kwan's 2003 LP, look at her "choreography sequence" there - Look at how OPEN the movement is, how fluid it is, how clean the body positions are, the speed across the ice as the steps are happening, the beautiful body alignment and edge control of a spread eagle that is actually held in a full semi-circle curve. The simultaneous nuance and expressiveness of the gesturing she does after the crossover, before going into the split jump - it's like her body has become a violin and she is playing a note with her body, and radiating joy and introspectiveness at the same time. WHERE IS THE CHOREOGRAPHY LIKE THIS ANYMORE? IT COULD STILL BE HAPPENING IN THE CHOREOGRAPHY SEQUENCE, BUT IT NEVER DOES.

It actually should be impossible to receive anything higher than 9.5 on Interpretation these days, because right now, there is literally nobody who has been able to achieve complete artistic/musical unity with all of the required jump, spin, and especially footwork sequence rules. The more useless "transitions" people include in programs, the further away they get from perfect Interpretation as well.

Thank you very much for your analysis! It is what I have been asking for and about, to show how music and movement should be analysed. This is really the first in-depth description of interpretation I found on the forum. Thank you again.
Thank you, I'm happy you enjoyed it! I've done many over the years but much of it may be difficult to find now on the forums, because the search feature doesn't search the archives.
 
There are no programs at all in the recent years that fully work with the music.
So, actually, the system is doing it. Not the skaters, not even the choreographers. The requirement for a large number of transitions, the number of positions in spins etc., all that is necessary to get high scores is dictating this choreography. It works against the requirement for matching the music in a detailed way, not just matching the character of music in general. It looks to me not like poor judging, but like an impossible task for all participants - choreographers, skaters and judges. This contradiction is built into the system. Actually, your deep posts criticize mostly choreography, only partially interpretation. The transitions, positions in spins, choreographic sequences all are planned by coaches and choreographers and then executed by the skater. If I understand it correctly, the rules describe interpretation as HOW the skater is doing it, and choreography as WHAT is planned. Am I right? Thus, choreography critique should not be aimed at the skater, while the critique of the quality, harmony, timely execution and fine nuances of those planned movements should. I guess it is an extremely difficult task for a judge to distinguish between those two features. Is it possible at all?
 
Again going back to Kwan's 2003 LP, look at her "choreography sequence" there - Look at how OPEN the movement is, how fluid it is, how clean the body positions are, the speed across the ice as the steps are happening, the beautiful body alignment and edge control of a spread eagle that is actually held in a full semi-circle curve. The simultaneous nuance and expressiveness of the gesturing she does after the crossover, before going into the split jump - it's like her body has become a violin and she is playing a note with her body, and radiating joy and introspectiveness at the same time. WHERE IS THE CHOREOGRAPHY LIKE THIS ANYMORE? IT COULD STILL BE HAPPENING IN THE CHOREOGRAPHY SEQUENCE, BUT IT NEVER DOES.

I would say the whole program looks archaic and pretty much pathetic by today's standards. Two feet skating, telegraphed jumps, empty choreo, frozen smile, bad spins, pathetic gestures, zero extension and flexibility, windmill hands and no upper body work on StSq.
It's not her fault, it's just how last century FS looked like. That's why there is no "choreography" like this anymore.
 
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It's mind-boggling to people who are ignorant and refuse to learn. ...
There is no point in getting upset about people who do not want to learn. This is a common thing at all times. For them, it is enough to pray for an object that they have chosen for one reason or another and just as fanatically hate the rivals of their idol. There is no point in blaming the crowd of fanatics for ignorance who burned yet another victim at the stake in the dark medieval times. These people sincerely believed that all this was correct. The presence of a smartphone and the Internet does not change anything.
 
Her spins are not bad, you don't know what you're talking about.
Kwan's spins are simple and unimpressive. Today even little children can do more complex, beautiful and creative spins.
In exhibitions, many of the modern skaters are not doing things that show a great deal of creativity or beauty or musical understanding. They include the same kinds of spins and turns and movement they are forced to do in competition.
Maybe their idea of beauty and creativity is not running circles on two feet like a short track skaters from one simple jump to another (you can call it "a build-up and clean body line" or whatever).
 
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Kwan's spins are simple and unimpressive.

To someone who has no idea of how a skater should move to music and what good form should be. She has a better back position in her sit spin than almost anyone competing today, better body line on the forward camel, and the position of her Y spin is better refined than anyone these days.

It's very funny how you yet again show no sign of understanding musicality or form in your response, you only say "children today can do more complex spins"; you think spins with convoluted positions and strict adherence to the rigid ruleset are inherently better and show better choreography or musicality.
 
Again going back to Kwan's 2003 LP, look at her "choreography sequence" there - Look at how OPEN the movement is, how fluid it is, how clean the body positions are, the speed across the ice as the steps are happening, the beautiful body alignment and edge control of a spread eagle that is actually held in a full semi-circle curve. The simultaneous nuance and expressiveness of the gesturing she does after the crossover, before going into the split jump - it's like her body has become a violin and she is playing a note with her body, and radiating joy and introspectiveness at the same time. WHERE IS THE CHOREOGRAPHY LIKE THIS ANYMORE? IT COULD STILL BE HAPPENING IN THE CHOREOGRAPHY SEQUENCE, BUT IT NEVER DOES.
Let me watch this program of hers, then I'll give my thoughts. I'll use the current Russian ladies' skating as a benchmark, I watch almost every category.

Before 1st jump - so simple that you tend to see even 7-year-olds doing more complex footwork and interpretation. Mostly two-foot skating, and forward. Literally, LITERALLY nothing advanced done. Perhaps 7-year-old is aiming a bit too high, they actually tend to have difficult steps in their skating. No entry to speak of.

In between first jump and the combo - Skates around the ring and turns a couple of times. I guess 6-year-olds might have similarly empty parts to their programs, but only the weaker ones. The best 6-year-olds actually have far more involved choreography, with more complex turns, changes of speed, and even more involved interpretation. No entry to speak of.

In between the combo and the next jump - Well, we find an Eteri spiral. Such a big issue when Eteri skaters do these 0.5 second spirals, but when Kwan does it must be great interpretation, right? Other than that, skates around with her arms spread, with mild hints of interpretation at some points. Does the simple Flip entry, but at least it has a 3-turn before the jump, I guess. Probably need to downgrade to a slightly below average 6-year-old, I mean none of them can really get away with skating like this.

In between the jump and the next jump - Very short sequence here, the vast majority of which is spent on stalking the Axel. Zero difficult steps.

Then spin - How simple was that spin anyway? That's actually the kind of a spin you don't even find in the 6yo category but in the category below, just above "first steps". For 5-year-olds. But okay, must be some amazing musical interpretation going on with the spin because it's Kwan. Right.

After the spin and before the next jump - Actually interprets the music for a while, but notably can't concentrate on anything else, so isn't doing difficult steps at the same time or anything. After she starts skating again, she stops interpreting. Then skates around a bit, with simple two-foot skating with absolutely nothing advanced going on. Simple, standard entry to Salchow.

Then the spin, it's better than the first one at least. Sit position isn't great, though. But this one I can give to her.

In between the spin and the next jump - Simple skating into the spiral. Now, the spiral was good, and also well timed with the music. But it still is just a spiral, I mean you'd look for more connecting steps or something. It then goes into some more simple skating into an easy entry into the 3T-2T, UR by the way.

In between the combo and the next jump - Simple two-footed skating, and absolutely no entry into the Lutz. Needless to say, this stuff you mostly stop seeing out of the good 7-year-olds, even 6-year-olds.

Then the... That was the choreo sequence? I was looking for some difficult steps or turns but she mostly just hopped around. When she tried to actually do a bracket turn, it looked as if she stumbled. Some choctaw, three-turn... And that's it? Oh dear. So she didn't do much except look clumsy. And this was your example? Alright. Well, afterwards she starts doing empty two-footed skating. Shocker. On, spread eagle? Hmm you're allowed to do a million crossovers during choreo sequence or was that separate? Oh well. That one was alright.

Then some spinning which isn't very complex. The layback's nice if you're into it, but it's true it's not very fast.


So I'd say that this amazing skate by Kwan is on the level of maybe a 6-year-old Russian girl in terms of interpretation, transitions, connecting steps and such. But that just might be generous, since the 6-year-old girls tend to have more complex programs. They tend to actually perform counters, brackets and rockers in between elements.


But well, if this to you is peak performance, then I understand why you aren't very fond of the current skaters. What you want to see is empty two-foot skating with some hand-flailing, from element to element with either stalking entries or simple entries. How unfortunate, but in 6yo category for Russian ladies you can still see skating like that.
 
You show literally no understanding of what Interpretation is in that post, and the same lack of understanding about body posture, line, rhythm, and edge control.

She never does an "Eteri spiral" in the program. Look at the nuance of her arms and hands, the depth of the edge, the back position, the line of the body, the expression and gentle release of the position.

Random bracket and rocker turns are not good interpretation, nor good choreography, nor good performance. Your view of skating is entirely through the prism of the robotic methodology that is currently pushed by certain schools. That is not what great artistic skating is. Your thesis that 6 year-old girls can skate like this shows a complete disregard for what's actually happening in this program, or programs from people like Lu Chen.

The layback's nice if you're into it, but it's true it's not very fast.

A very fast spin would not interpret the music there.

How do you express subtle pain and joy, introspective loss and triumph, gentle rhythms, mature world view, in a skating program? Not in any way that you keep talking about.
 
The sequence part of the discussed program reminded me of Misha Ge's most over the top sequences. I understand now where he obtained his inspiration. I would not say that it is how figure skating should look like but it was always fun to watch.

I rewatched the whole program. I would not be as harsh as some comments above. Kwan's skating has some qualities in it. I was not bored as I am while watching many of classical intepretations by the Japanese skaters. But, of course, tech wise it is history. One may feel nostalgic watching Lyudmila Turischeva's or Nadya Komanechi's performances. But to compare them with Ms. Biles? Come on. Gymnastics back then and now are 2 different sports. Figure skating during Miss Kwan's time and now are 2 different sports.

Some people may keep living in their own reality. The real reality does not care.
 
I'd agree it isn't too fair to compare 6.0 skating to IJS skating. There are so many more technical requirements that artistry is undeniably less rewarded and musical interpretation is less achievable. Even if the music calls for a simple elegant layback and a skater can do a beautiful one, no one is going throw away the points of a level 4 spin that requires 4 different positions held for 3 revolutions each (or wvtr it is). I'm not saying there isn't plenty of room for better interpretation and choreography than we're seeing most of the time. But comparing Kamila's spin to Ashley's in 2014 makes more sense than to Michelle's in 2003, whose spin was beautiful and sensitive to the music - but from a different sport.
 
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