Judging the "Old-Fashioned" Way

[silverpond]

One of the posters commented on Nadia Commenici's perfect scores in gymnastics. I remember watching the Montreal Olympics in 1976 when Nadia was awarded the first of a long string of 10s. I believe she was performing on the balance beam or uneven parallel bars. When she finished, the electronic scoreboard projected "1.0." There was a gasp from the audience, then everyone went absolutely nuts, leaping to their feet and cheering at the top of their lungs. History had been made, and the "technology" - the scoreboard - had to nudged to keep up with it!

 

[Violet Bliss]

In her interviews years later when she came to live in Montreal, Nadia herself said she would not have awarded a 10 to her performances, maybe a 9.9, but I'm not 100% sure right now.

Nadia's 10s were so exciting because gymnastics were the marquee sport for the 1976 Olympics following Olga Korbut stealing everybody's heart in 1972 with her incredible pioneering release moves. People came back to renew their love affair with Olga in 1976 but Nadia stole the show. Of course, gymnastics have not stayed the most popular Summer Games sport while figure skating is still the marquee event for the Winter Games. Count ourselves lucky.

eta I find the idea of perfection amusing. Those who excel and get awarded the perfect scores are also the perfectionists who are critical of themselves and find imperfections to overcome in their thrilling "perfect" performances.

 

[janetfan]

One of the posters commented on Nadia Commenici's perfect scores in gymnastics. I remember watching the Montreal Olympics in 1976 when Nadia was awarded the first of a long string of 10s. I believe she was performing on the balance beam or uneven parallel bars. When she finished, the electronic scoreboard projected "1.0." There was a gasp from the audience, then everyone went absolutely nuts, leaping to their feet and cheering at the top of their lungs. History had been made, and the "technology" - the scoreboard - had to nudged to keep up with it!

Here it is, the first 10 in Olympic gymnastics history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m2YT-PIkEc

Had it been scored under the new system it would have not been remembered as anything special.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Forgive me if I'm missing some context here, but I doubt the recent loss of figure skating fans in the USA has anything to do with the change in scoring systems. Under CoP, figure skating is probably the most popular it's ever been in Asia these days, and as far as I know it's popularity in Europe and Russia remains very high also. In the USA, skating's popularity as a spectator sport has clearly come way down from the highs established after the Tonya Harding scandal in the 1990's but that is to be expected. I think skating's popularity will rise a lot in the USA when US women's single skaters once again rise to the top of the heap, that is the main problem today I think. A sport needs compelling stars/champions to attract a dedicated audience, right now the USA is still working on creating those new stars. JMHO.

Oh goodness, no - COP isn't the sole factor in blame here. We're talking about a sport that hit an artificial high with a supremely controversial event, followed by one of the most dominant skaters ever, healthy intra-national rivalry (Tara Lipinski, Sarah Hughes) and throughout a bevy of interesting narratives. But remember, figure skating was dwindling by Salt Lake (before controversy). It had about 1/3 the hours on television it had in the years leading up to Nagano. The scandal definitely hurt, as did the move to anonymous judging and IJS/COP points system. Meanwhile, the shift out of the television age meant that most things weren't as popular as they once were (seriously - check out the ratings from ER during it's penultimate season and compare that to the early years. Or even something like basketball/baseball) - only the Superbowl has remained untouched by the major cultural shifts going on. Even if there was a new Michelle Kwan (and by that I mean a beautiful American female skater that was dominant) the sport wouldn't be as popular as it was during the mid-90's heyday.

 

[Mathman]

Oh goodness, no - COP isn't the sole factor in blame here. We're talking about a sport that hit an artificial high with a supremely controversial event, followed by one of the most dominant skaters ever, healthy intra-national rivalry (Tara Lipinski, Sarah Hughes) and throughout a bevy of interesting narratives. But remember, figure skating was dwindling by Salt Lake (before controversy). It had about 1/3 the hours on television it had in the years leading up to Nagano. The scandal definitely hurt, as did the move to anonymous judging and IJS/COP points system. Meanwhile, the shift out of the television age meant that most things weren't as popular as they once were (seriously - check out the ratings from ER during it's penultimate season and compare that to the early years. Or even something like basketball/baseball) - only the Superbowl has remained untouched by the major cultural shifts going on. Even if there was a new Michelle Kwan (and by that I mean a beautiful American female skater that was dominant) the sport wouldn't be as popular as it was during the mid-90's heyday.

This.

Especially the part about the "post-television era."

Who would have thought that Monday Night Football in the U.S. would go the way of the Friday Night Fights? What's next, Hockey Night in Canada? (OK, let's not get crazy. )

 

[seniorita]

Thank you for the Nadia Comaneci mention, I get goosebumps wheneven i watch her routine, I believe her very first ten was at compulsories in uneven bars and then the beam I think those kind of moments stayed in memory/history not only because of the different "perfect ten kind" of judging system but because up until the last decade you got images only from tv live transmissions and especially at the beginning if you didnt have a vcr you were bound to watch something once, like you were a part of the history made, it had another specific gravity for the audience a moment like this on tv. One of my very intense memories is Seoul Olympics when Luganis hit his head in diving competition, because it was live on tv, and the myth about him was also from the commentators or newspapers, there wasnt wikipedia to teach me who was Luganis. But when Phelps broke the medals record, I prefered to go out and watch it later on the internet .
Now you receive images and information frome everywhere, you phone, ipod, youtube whenever you like. Now you can watch skating on tv, but if you miss it or you dont bother with the time difference, there will be or a crappy 24h internet link, youtube, or downlaod of the vids later, it is not the same.

 

[jatale]

One has to remember that the reason Nadia's "perfect 10" was so big was because the broadcast news machines all around the world kicked into high gear and promoting Nadia to super-stardom just to juice their ratings. The idea that TV sports is about the athletes is just absurd, it is ALL ABOUT RATINGS AND MONEY. Top athletes who are photogenic and have popular appeal are promoted over those that lack those attributes. If Nadia had a been a sourpuss and homely, you can bet her achievements would not have been made into the huge deal they were. Fortunately, Nadia was a cute and telegenic young girl, that made all the difference. Excuse me here if I get carried away a bit, but we viewers are all manipulated by the media constantly. What seems real may be all a big mirage. It is too bad that sports TV coverage cannot be a clear unvarnished window on the world of sports, but in general it is a profit driven (or politically driven as the case may be) enterprise that is biased to wazoo. JMHO.

Sure the "perfect 10" system helped publicize Nadia'a achievement, but her routines today would probably not even qualify her for the upcoming 2012 Olympics. The sport has moved on, and the athleticism keeps increasing. The USA and Russia have their new "it" girls that their TV coverage will promote them ad nauseam.

 

[janetfan]

Not unusual for members of this Board to continue the debate on 6.0 v. CoP, and not discuss the loss of fans from figure skating. It's hard to believe that a once major sport has diminished in popularity. Keeping the blinders on is one way to go.

Moving on from the CoP vs 6.0 debate I would say that ISU has failed to figure out an interesting and informative way to present the scores.

Is "that's 182 for Mirai Nagasu....and skating next will be Ashley Wagner" really all ISU thinks fans care about and need to know?

The scores are a mystery and isn't it possible to also show a streamlined breakdown of the score so the number 182 would actually mean something?

Does it makes sense for ISU to continue on with so much secrecy, not just about the judges, but also about the meaning of the scores during a competition?

I think ISU fails to provide enough information about a skater's performance and score to either interest or inform the fans who might be watching.

Is this done intentionally to cover questionable calls and scores or is ISU incapable of figuring out a better way to inform the fans about the scores?

Is the scoring system too complicated to give broadcasters a chance to explain it to fans? Or do we need to hear instead for the upteenth time that Mirai has alot of spirit or that Rachael is going to Stanford?

If ISU figured out a mini scoresheet system that would give a quick look at what the skater did well and where they were penalized would fans even care?

If fans don't care what does that say about skating? What does it say about the scoring system?

 

[mskater93]

The scores are a mystery and isn't it possible to also show a streamlined breakdown of the score so the number 182 would actually mean something?

Does it makes sense for ISU to continue on with so much secrecy, not just about the judges, but also about the meaning of the scores during a competition?

I think ISU fails to provide enough information about a skater's performance and score to either interest or inform the fans who might be watcing.

Is this done intentionally to cover questionable calls or is ISU incapable of figuring out a better way to inform the fans about the scores?

If ISU figured out a mini scoresheet system that would give a quick look at what the skater did well and where they were penalized would fans even care?

In this day and age where information is "instant" I don't see how they COULDN'T get that information to the broadcast team (or at least the team's "spotter" who's responsible for getting data and background information to the actual "face" of the broadcast). Heck, at local competitions, you can get your IJS scoresheet within a couple minutes of your event being over IN PRINT! There should be a plug in to the judges' aggregate sheet for the broadcaster who can say "Hmm, 120 in the LP, we were expecting a little higher there. Oh, she got a 70% base value on the back half of the 3+3 and no points on her flying spin" right then instead of saying "oh, man, do the judges HATE her! She should have scored higher than that and EASILY made the world team. Boy, do the judges LOVE her rival!" It's these broad paint stroke statements that also turn off a casual fan because they don't have THAT much interest to go look up the reason for the results (post event score sheets). I really think the general American public is starting to think figure skating = professional wrestling.

 

[seniorita]

Sure the "perfect 10" system helped publicize Nadia'a achievement, but her routines today would probably not even qualify her for the upcoming 2012 Olympics.

Nowdays it probably wouldn't qualify her to even get out of her gym, but that routine, it was 35 years ago, how can we even compare what they had to do then and now..

 

[let`s talk]

I am not happy with the current system too! But the problem is that I don't even remember the gold age of 6.0 well, I was that little! What should I do if there is no place for "let it go" ( I mean my memory lane is not that long enough).

What indeed doesn't serve the sport is winners like Evan and Chan, with their technical skating with no spikes, shrills or aventures. Yawn. :disapp:

 

[Violet Bliss]

What indeed doesn't serve the sport is winners like Evan and Chan, with their technical skating with no spikes, shrills or aventures. Yawn. :disapp:

"Spikes, shrills or aventures" are subjective perceptions and not absolute truths by someone's declaration. Different people feel differently. In a competition, the judges' views pervail. At least they are trained and they are there. So calleld spikes, shrills or aventures without athletic skills don't make figure skating a sport, especially not an Olympic sport.

 

[silverpond]

Sure the "perfect 10" system helped publicize Nadia'a achievement, but her routines today would probably not even qualify her for the upcoming 2012 Olympics. The sport has moved on, and the athleticism keeps increasing. The USA and Russia have their new "it" girls that their TV coverage will promote them ad nauseam.

I respectfully disagree with your argument. Nadia's technical skills were the best in her era, and she won her gold medals fairly and squarely. How do we know that if Nadia was a teenager today that she would not be performing the types of routines that are now being performed?

Are we going to dismiss Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill as second-rate figure skaters and state they would not qualify for the US nationals if they were competing today? That's ridiculous. Both Fleming and Hamill were the best skaters of their era, and they excelled in every aspect of the sport, including the school figures. Sure, they did not perform triple jumps, and neither did 99 percent of the women of that era. Hamill once said she had "slow rotation" and never learned to skate triples. She didn't need them - and neither did the other women who competed in that era.

 

[fscric]

silverpond, couldn't agree more with your post.

 

[jatale]

I respectfully disagree with your argument. Nadia's technical skills were the best in her era, and she won her gold medals fairly and squarely. How do we know that if Nadia was a teenager today that she would not be performing the types of routines that are now being performed?

Are we going to dismiss Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill as second-rate figure skaters and state they would not qualify for the US nationals if they were competing today? That's ridiculous. Both Fleming and Hamill were the best skaters of their era, and they excelled in every aspect of the sport, including the school figures. Sure, they did not perform triple jumps, and neither did 99 percent of the women of that era. Hamill once said she had "slow rotation" and never learned to skate triples. She didn't need them - and neither did the other women who competed in that era.

I do agree with everything you say here. My previous post was not meant to diminish in any way the accomplishments of Nadia or Peggy, or Dorothy, etc. They were all great athletes and champions. I was only trying to point out that their fame was not really dependent on the scoring system in use at the time, but rather in their talent and personal charisma.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

While I do agree with you in general, I would say part of the sport's mystique did come from that perfect 10.0, much like Torvil/Dean's straight 6.0s in Sarejevo, nearly thirty years later, remains the defining moment in ice dancing. I have to admit I prefer "higher, faster, stronger" to "perfection," and watching the 1976 routine that got that 10 was relatively blase personally, but the mystique remains.

 

[Olympia]

In the 1964 Olympics, I think, an American swimmer named Don Schollander won a clutch of swimming medals including something like four golds. In one of the more recent Games, a report pointed out that his times wouldn't have gotten him a bronze medal in the girls' events of that year (1992 or somewhere around there). So what? He was still amazing in 1964. Things progress, but that doesn't negate what came before. What Nadia did was amazing, and it was exhilarating to watch. I can pretty much guarantee that none of us who watched were saying to ourselves, "ehhh, in 35 years this performance won't amount to a hill of beans." Funny thing, too: we might even feel moved by Comaneci's performance today, on YouTube. I've certainly been moved by Peggy Fleming and Janet Lynn--did they even do triples? Who cares?

 

[jenaj]

I respectfully disagree with your argument. Nadia's technical skills were the best in her era, and she won her gold medals fairly and squarely. How do we know that if Nadia was a teenager today that she would not be performing the types of routines that are now being performed?

Are we going to dismiss Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill as second-rate figure skaters and state they would not qualify for the US nationals if they were competing today? That's ridiculous. Both Fleming and Hamill were the best skaters of their era, and they excelled in every aspect of the sport, including the school figures. Sure, they did not perform triple jumps, and neither did 99 percent of the women of that era. Hamill once said she had "slow rotation" and never learned to skate triples. She didn't need them - and neither did the other women who competed in that era.

I agree. Skaters (and gymnasts, presumably) performed according to the system in place at the time. When Peggy, Dorothy and Janet Lynn skated, figures were 60% of the score. If a skater did well in figures, like Peggy, they didn't need to add triples to their programs to win. If they did not so well, like Janet Lynn, triples wouldn't have helped them. Janet Lynn, by the way, did triples at several competitions--1969 nationals, 1968 Olympics, perhaps others--but eventually left them out because they wouldn't have resulted in a higher placement for her.

 

[janetfan]

While I do agree with you in general, I would say part of the sport's mystique did come from that perfect 10.0, much like Torvil/Dean's straight 6.0s in Sarejevo, nearly thirty years later, remains the defining moment in ice dancing. I have to admit I prefer "higher, faster, stronger" to "perfection," and watching the 1976 routine that got that 10 was relatively blase personally, but the mystique remains.

Not only did a "mystique" come from a perfect 6 or 10 but it was precisely the scoring system that leant itself so well to these special moments.

Patrick Chan ,,,,hmmm, will he break a point total again? (yawn)

He might but he will never be considered "perfect."

Whether you like one system or the other there is no doubt which worked better for the media and the fans.

Speaking of point total records, I have no idea what they are and don't really care because the CoP keeps changing the rules and values.

Can you spell asterisk


Several posters have come up with the strangest and most defensive sounding remarks about skaters from decades ago trying to defend the CoP.

Ice Dancing owes so much to T/D and it goes well beyond their legendary performances in Sarajevo.

Nadia blase

Nadia set the Olympics on fire and inspired a generation of gymnasts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1myqqgfOr-I&feature=related

Nadia's performances at the '76 Olympics have been described as "incredible," "astonishing," and "electrifying." :agree:


ETA: Now and then I read posts from newer skating fans and they ask, "what are pointed toes" or "why do they matter" :think:

Watch Nadia in the highlights link above and perhaps you will get it

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Oh, I can respect the achievement, but not knowing a lot about gymnastics means that the effect is limited. I understand her impact on the sport and wouldn't want to diminish that, but her impact on me was considerably less (compare that to Gina Gogean, who I totally had a crush on when I was a 12 year old during Atlanta.)

I agree with the rest (particularly the world record comment. The ISU no longer really cares about personal bests for that very reason, so doesn't it make more sense to just point out the season best each year?). That said, I do wonder if Chan can break his record and that does excite me, because that would generally mean he skated a harder program and/or skated better, which would be truly thrilling.

Relative perfection doesn't do much for me.