Judging the "Old-Fashioned" Way

[janetfan]

Oh, I can respect the achievement, but not knowing a lot about gymnastics means that the effect is limited. I understand her impact on the sport and wouldn't want to diminish that, but her impact on me was considerably less (compare that to Gina Gogean, who I totally had a crush on when I was a 12 year old during Atlanta.)

I agree with the rest (particularly the world record comment. The ISU no longer really cares about personal bests for that very reason, so doesn't it make more sense to just point out the season best each year?). That said, I do wonder if Chan can break his record and that does excite me, because that would generally mean he skated a harder program and/or skated better, which would be truly thrilling.

Relative perfection doesn't do much for me.

Maybe in 10 years, if the CoP eventually gets it right and settles into a more stable set of point values and requirements the world records will actually mean something.

Let's compare the impact of Yuna's performances in Vancouver with that of Nadia from Montreal.

If 6.0 had still been used I believe Yuna would have come close to breaking the record for most 6.0's and certainly the most by a singles skater.
Instead her near perfect skating broke a point record.

Yuna is not American and contrary to what some of her fans believe she is basically unknown to the American public despite winning the OGM.


Nadia came from Romania, and unlike Korea, America did not have friendly relations with Nadia's country.

Yet Nadia became a sensation in USA based on her Olympic performances. I am sure gymnastics at the time was not as popular in USA as skating was so how do we explain the phenominal popularity of Nadia in USA?

Several factors could be mentioned but I think the scoring system was the biggest difference.

One system makes the sport more exciting to casual viewers and the other befuddles casual viewers.

Nadia was unknown to the American public heading into the '76 Olympics.
Yuna was unknown to the majority of Americans but skating fans knew her and she had been seen winning the WC in LA a year before Vancouver.

Yuna is from a democratic country, speaks English and has Nike as one of her sponsors.

How did Nadia, a totally unknown girl from an Eastern bloc communist country become such a sensation here while Yuna remains close to anonymous?

Yuna seems to have many advantages over Nadia. She is beautiful and charasmatic, lives a good life, donates more to charity than most athletes and seems like the type of athlete Americans have always embraced.

What Nadia had was the advantage of a scoring system that made her performances seem bigger than life.
Yuna did not.

Sorry, but "243" will never beat a "perfect 10."

 

[Olympia]

That's a fascinating thought, Hernando. I don't know if I completely agree with your answer, partly because of a difference in TV viewing these days, but the question you posed has importance in itself.

Here's what I mean by the TV factor. In the days of the last episode of the hit show M*A*S*H*, an extraordinary percentage of American households watched the show. It could be called a shared national experience. The same was true for the Montreal Olympics. Moreover, because Nadia's exploits took several days (I think she got her seven 10's across three or four days), word of mouth as well as news reports gathered more and more viewers.

By contrast, entertainment broadcasting (now an inaccurate word) has gotten far more fragmented, with many cable channel viewing opportunities as well as non-TV outlets (the Web, gaming, and so on) as well as network TV. So the Olympics, and especially the Winter Games, have become niche viewing. I don't like it any more than you do, because a lot of people miss out on the gems of magnificent Olympic performance.

To us, skating is the center of the sports world (and an art form besides), but we're what Shakespeare would call a "happy few." It's not everyone's cup of tea--silly them!

But I repeat: your supposition makes a wonderful issue to ponder, and I think there's lots more to say about it, because it reveals a lot about both of these sterling athletes. Thanks for putting it that way!

 

[janetfan]

That's a fascinating thought, Hernando. I don't know if I completely agree with your answer, partly because of a difference in TV viewing these days, but the question you posed has importance in itself.

Here's what I mean by the TV factor. In the days of the last episode of the hit show M*A*S*H*, an extraordinary percentage of American households watched the show. It could be called a shared national experience. The same was true for the Montreal Olympics. Moreover, because Nadia's exploits took several days (I think she got her seven 10's across three or four days), word of mouth as well as news reports gathered more and more viewers.

By contrast, entertainment broadcasting (now an inaccurate word) has gotten far more fragmented, with many cable channel viewing opportunities as well as non-TV outlets (the Web, gaming, and so on) as well as network TV. So the Olympics, and especially the Winter Games, have become niche viewing. I don't like it any more than you do, because a lot of people miss out on the gems of magnificent Olympic performance.

To us, skating is the center of the sports world (and an art form besides), but we're what Shakespeare would call a "happy few." It's not everyone's cup of tea--silly them!

But I repeat: your supposition makes a wonderful issue to ponder, and I think there's lots more to say about it, because it reveals a lot about both of these sterling athletes. Thanks for putting it that way!

I do agree with what you said about TV - but we can look at this from another POV.
There are so many TV stations today (over 200 last time I checked) that it feels mind-boggling to me that skating struggles to get on the air.

mathman noted the "Tour de France" is broadcast (a whole month of it) but skating fans can't get anything from Worlds Live. And no 4CC at all, like it doesn't even exist

It seems to me there should be quite alot of TV skating covergage wih the incredibly expanded viewing opportunities of 200+ channels.
But in USA most advertisers are reluctant to spend money on CoP skating.

It doesn't take a marketing professional to see that CoP skating is not an attractive product in the USA.

My hope is for a skating channel someday just like golf and tennis have. There would already be one if sponsors thought it was a good place to spend their money.

So far they do not. My fingers are crossed but it is safe to bet I am NOT holding my breath.

I think after Speedy and his #2 lapdog are gone we will see some meaningful, fan friendly changes to the CoP.
Only then will skating come back in USA and many parts of Europe.

 

[jatale]

But in USA most advertisers are reluctant to spend money on CoP skating... It doesn't take a marketing professional to see that CoP skating is not an attractive product in the USA.

Sorry Hernando, I was enjoying your reflections on Nadia and Yuna until you accused CoP as being the culprit. I really think you are wrong in asserting that the CoP is the reason USA TV stations are not covering skating like they used to. If TV coverage and the money it brings in is still essential for the sport of figure skating, and I think it is, and the CoP was the cause of major money decline then the ISU would drop CoP like a hot potato in order to get TV revenues back up again. It is that simple. Anyway, this argument is futile because people have entrenched positions, so I'm not going to pursue it any further.

 

[janetfan]

Sorry Hernando, I was enjoying your reflections on Nadia and Yuna until you accused CoP as being the culprit. I really think you are wrong in asserting that the CoP is the reason USA TV stations are not covering skating like they used to. If TV coverage and the money it brings in is still essential for the sport of figure skating, and I think it is, and the CoP was the cause of major money decline then the ISU would drop CoP like a hot potato in order to get TV revenues back up again. It is that simple. Anyway, this argument is futile because people have entrenched positions, so I'm not going to pursue it any further.

I admit I am being tough on the the CoP but don't think I believe I am totally right here. I admit I am offering opinions, open for debate.

Unfortunately, CoP fanaticism is so extreme (and insecure) that I must take what many lady fans at GS would consider a "hard view."

Boo hoo.

gkelly and Imaginary Pogue are at times elegant defenders of the CoP until push comes to shove and the bare facts are laid on ther line.

Their arguments crumble against the simple facts that CoP skating is not a popular or an attractive product/sport to American advertisers and fans in the 21st century. Fans have left in droves and as Joesitz points out they won't be back anytime soon.

One does not need to be as brilliant as Einstein to see the failure of the CoP or the lack of integrity from those who thrust it upon us.

I love skating and hope for something better. (Including better and more honest/logical arguments from the CoP die hard defenders.)

Interesting to hear from Pogue that "Nadia was blase". :sheesh:

Of equal interest is that Pogue was not even born when Nadia set worldwide sporting fans into a frenzy. :think:

Let's get real here for once....

 

[gkelly]

Hernando, I think you're evaluating the health of the sport based on how many fans it attracts, how many hours of television coverage are offered in the US, how many dollars it brings in.

For me, those are the wrong questions. What matters to me is how well the athletes are being served.

I think there are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. We can discuss how either could be improved to minimize the disadvantages.

But ultimately, we also have to live in the real world and understand and appreciate the system currently in use.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

The thing is Hernando, when we present other, contrary facts, you accuse us of being disingenous or dishonest. I find it very frustrating debating with you because I often don't know the parameters of the debate you wish to engage in to the point where you might see me as evasive but I'm simply exhaustated of the twists thrown in.

 

[janetfan]

Hernando, I think you're evaluating the health of the sport based on how many fans it attracts, how many hours of television coverage are offered in the US, how many dollars it brings in.

For me, those are the wrong questions. What matters to me is how well the athletes are being served.

I think there are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. We can discuss how either could be improved to minimize the disadvantages.

But ultimately, we also have to live in the real world and understand and appreciate the system currently in use.

Nice answer and I guess that means you are happy to ignore this statement from Lori Nichol since it doesn't seem close to what you are selling:

"I do think there are several good judges that do understand the program components. It’ll be a while before we get the majority of them on the panel, but that’s life."
Lori Nichol

There we have Lori Nichol, who I suspect and hope is at least your equal when it comes to the CoP telling us what many already suspect.

The CoP is so complex the judges don't get it.

Is it that strange to think fans watching in the arena or on TV get it at all - when Lori is admitting the judges don't get it?

Sorry, and I don't mean to be snarky but it is easy to see how you pick and choose topics while avoiding certain comments like the plague.

I don't blame you for avoiding Lori's quote since it shoots down just about everything you have ever said about the Cop from here to the moon.

I believe most of your opinions about the CoP - although well intended are wrong, and the opinions of experts like Lori and Toller, based on a lifetime of experience are correct.

It is not a good system and it is killing skating in many of the major markets.

 

[gkelly]

If you collect the opinions of all the experts -- skaters, judges, coaches, choreographers, etc. -- about which judging system they prefer, some of them will love one so much that they want nothing to do with the other (on both sides -- I don't know what the percentages would be), some would have a preference one way or the other but also acknowledge what the other system does better, and some would not have a strong preference and just be willing to work with whatever system happens to be in place at the time.

I.e., most experts would see both good and bad things about each system, in different proportions, and would say so if asked.

It would be interesting to do a survey.

If you just read a few interviews, you can pick and choose quotes to support your position and ignore others. And so do the interviewers who feed you those quotes in the first place. Most of the experts are going to have more nuanced views of the pluses and minuses on both sides.

I'm not trying to make a case that the IJS has no vices and that 6.0 has no virtues. It seems that some posters here try to argue the opposite, so I point out where I disagree.

If someone comes here and argues that 6.0 was worthless and good riddance, it should have been scrapped much earlier, etc., I'll be happy to argue in its favor. But there's no point if we're already all in agreement that it did have advantages, especially for earlier eras of skating content.

 

[janetfan]

If you collect the opinions of all the experts -- skaters, judges, coaches, choreographers, etc. -- about which judging system they prefer, some of them will love one so much that they want nothing to do with the other (on both sides -- I don't know what the percentages would be), some would have a preference one way or the other but also acknowledge what the other system does better, and some would not have a strong preference and just be willing to work with whatever system happens to be in place at the time.

I.e., most experts would see both good and bad things about each system, in different proportions, and would say so if asked.

It would be interesting to do a survey.

If you just read a few interviews, you can pick and choose quotes to support your position and ignore others. And so do the interviewers who feed you those quotes in the first place. Most of the experts are going to have more nuanced views of the pluses and minuses on both sides.

I'm not trying to make a case that the IJS has no vices and that 6.0 has no virtues. It seems that some posters here try to argue the opposite, so I point out where I disagree.

If someone comes here and argues that 6.0 was worthless and good riddance, it should have been scrapped much earlier, etc., I'll be happy to argue in its favor. But there's no point if we're already all in agreement that it did have advantages, especially for earlier eras of skating content.

All good and fair points.

I have no idea who your favorite skaters are and would be curious to hear your views on that. Why are you so secretive about that :think:

If you don't want to discuss that I would be curious to hear your views on the comparison I made between Nadia and Yuna.

Why was Nadia such a sensation and Yuna barely recognized in USA?
I think it has something to do with the scoring systems they competed under.

Care to tell me what is wrong with my observation?

 

[gkelly]

I have no idea who your favorite skaters are and would be curious to hear your views on that. Why are you so secretive about that :think:

Too many to name. I prefer to enjoy whatever there is to enjoy about each skater rather than to choose favorites. Of course some skaters are less interesting to me than others or I happen to have a soft spot for someone for one reason or another.

If you don't want to discuss that I would be curious to hear your views on the comparsion made between Nadia and Yuna.

That I'm less interested in. I never followed gymnastics particularly closely. I vaguely remember watching the Olympics in 1976, but I remember Dorothy Hamill at the Winter Olympics much more clearly, because I was a skater at the time.

I think a lot of reasons have been offered in this thread and they probably all have validity. I don't dispute that the scoring system may play some part in the difference in popularity or name recognition. But I believe that the other reasons offered are also valid, that it's a combination of factors, not one and only one.

And believe me, there is a lot more access to skating on TV in 2011 or 2010 than there was in 1976 or 1977.

 

[seniorita]

Comparing Yuna ''s effect to Comaneci''s is like comparing an orange with an ipod, I like both. Different decades, different sport, Summer / winter olympic audience, different athletes etc etc, i have no idea what conclusion can come out.
I have been confused with the twists this thread has taken, all and all I havent gotten exactly the debate theme, except for the fact that it is off season and something is needed to be discussed for x pages. Despite CoP not being perfect and the nostalgy of 6.0 era, that I feel the same to some point, would anyone wish that tommorow the system would be again the 6.0 if he had a magic wand? I wouldnt. So if indeed Cop has resulted to fewer people watching fs, it is done now.
Although i think this is just a small factor, people watch sports on tv less time now/ except for football. Is there an indication that the audience of other sports have stayed the same or has increased in the years other than the olympic one?
For a dying sport with less audience, the arena ''s in competitions are full I think and there are plenty of shows. I have been to gymnastics competitions (smaller than worlds though) and your voice could echo inside the stadium.

 

[janetfan]

And believe me, there is a lot more access to skating on TV in 2011 or 2010 than there was in 1976 or 1977.

Are we back to "quantity vs quality" :think:

I'd say there are far more competitions today than in 1976.

But I recall the coverage of the Olympics and Natls in 1976 was much more complete than what we suffered hrough in Vancouver.

And let's face it, most of us remember Jenny Kirk as much from seeing her at 4CC as anywhere else.
Where was 4CC coverage last season?

If I remember correctly it did not even make the internet let alone TV coverage :disapp:

 

[janetfan]

Comparing Yuna ''s effect to Comaneci''s is like comparing an orange with an ipod, I like both. Different decades, different sport, Summer / winter olympic audience, different athletes etc etc, i have no idea what conclusion can come out.
I have been confused with the twists this thread has taken, all and all I havent gotten exactly the debate theme, except for the fact that it is off season and something is needed to be discussed for x pages. Despite CoP not being perfect and the nostalgy of 6.0 era, that I feel the same to some point, would anyone wish that tommorow the system would be again the 6.0 if he had a magic wand? I wouldnt. So if indeed Cop has resulted to fewer people watching fs, it is done now.
Although i think this is just a small factor, people watch sports on tv less time now/ except for football. Is there an indication that the audience of other sports have stayed the same or has increased in the years other than the olympic one?
For a dying sport with less audience, the arena ''s in competitions are full I think and there are plenty of shows. I have been to gymnastics competitions (smaller than worlds though) and your voice could echo inside the stadium.

Seniorita, your points are well taken and I agree with most of them....sort of....
I was talking about the American experience which is more difficult for you to understand.

I think the comparison with Nadia and Yuna is valid and not so easy to explain away.

Why was Nadia such a star and Yuna barey noticed in USA?

The odds would all seem to favor Yuna yet she came nowhere close to grabbing as much attention as Nadia did in USA.

Remember the movie with Dudley Moore and Bo Derek?

Was it called "10" or "237"

 

[seniorita]

Why was Nadia such a star and Yuna barey noticed in USA?

for the same reason my mum knows who is Katarina Witt without knowing anything about skating. People search for fairytale stories elsewhere these days.

I dont think nowdays an american or european skater would have made the fuss those ladies did in all continents, not just Yuna.

 

[janetfan]

for the same reason my mum knows who is Katarina Witt without knowing anything about skating. People search for fairytale stories elsewhere these days.

I dont think nowdays an american or european skater would have made the fuss those ladies did in all continents, not just Yuna.

Why is that? Why has skating faded so much?
Now we are getting somewhere

 

[gkelly]

I'd say there are far more competitions today than in 1976.

True. There are also more skaters in total and more countries represented, and several of the fall competitions are more important because they've been collected into a series.

But I recall the coverage of the Olympics and Natls in 1976 was much more complete than what we suffered hrough in Vancouver.

I think the Olympic coverage was pretty comparable in terms of number of skaters shown.

Not even close with Nationals. I don't remember seeing any short programs or more than the top 5 or 6 skaters per discipline, probably less for pairs and dance and maybe men.

And let's face it, most of us remember Jenny Kirk as much from seeing her at 4CC as anywhere else.

Speak for yourself. If you asked me where I remember seeing Jenny Kirk compete, Four Continents would not be the first or second place that comes to mind. In fact, what I'd think of first would be the Nationals (1998, when she was novice) and Skate America (2003?) that I attended in person and saw her skate live. Next I would think of the Nationals broadcasts where she made an impact. After that I might think of the Junior Worlds and Four Continents that she won.

In other words, we each have our own associations and it's not often meaningful to try to generalize too much.

Where was 4CC coverage last season?

It was shown after the fact on Universal Sports during the week when Worlds was supposed to take place. If Worlds hadn't been postponed, I don't know if it would ever have been aired in the US.

 

[janetfan]

True. There are also more skaters in total and more countries represented, and several of the fall competitions are more important because they've been collected into a series.

.

And I guess because the Nadia/Yuna question doesn't support your way of thinking you pass on it.
Fair enough.

What about Lori's comment I quoted. That also does not fit your POV so you skip over that one as well?

Lori and Joe Inman made it clear they don't think the judges, even at the highest levels get the CoP and mark the PCS properly.

I would hardly call that a ringing endorsement.

 

[gkelly]

And I guess because the Nadia/Yuna question doesn't support your way of thinking you pass on it.
Fair enough.

I don't find it to be an interesting or a meaningful question, regardless of what the answer is. Should I start guessing why you ignore questions that I post or threads that I start? I just assume they don't interest you.

What about Lori's comment I quoted. That also does not fit your POV so you skip over that one as well?

It's one quote from one person. Do you have a link to the original interview so we can get a little more context?

I already said, without naming Nichol by name, that isolated quotes by individual skating experts don't tell us everything that that expert thinks about the judging system, much less what anyone else thinks.

If you want to boil everything down to one answer, IJS is worthless and 6.0 is perfect (or vice versa), I don't want to play that game. I'm more interested in nuance.

 

[janetfan]

It's one quote from one person. Do you have a link to the original interview so we can get a little more context?

I already said, without naming Nichol by name, that isolated quotes by individual skating experts don't tell us everything that that expert thinks about the judging system, much less what anyone else thinks.

If you want to boil everything down to one answer, IJS is worthless and 6.0 is perfect (or vice versa), I don't want to play that game. I'm more interested in nuance.

I never said 6.0 was perfect.

Why is that the pet answer from CoP fans anytime someone challenges the system?'

Here is the link with the full interview with Lori:

http://www.absoluteskating.com/index.php?cat=interviews&id=2007lorinichol