Just HOW will the U.S. teams be picked?

[ImaginaryPogue]

Her LP was one of the better LP's at Worlds, much better than Caro or Laura for instance - but Alissa was held down by fraudulent CoP reputation scoring.

She beat Carolina Kostner by 16 points in the LP. Lepisto had no edge calls and a 3-2-2 in the back half, which helped her quite considerably. Laura also got credit for four triples, whereas Czisny got credit for three.

 

[janetfan]

She beat Carolina Kostner by 16 points in the LP. Lepisto had no edge calls and a 3-2-2 in the back half, which helped her quite considerably. Laura also got credit for four triples, whereas Czisny got credit for three.

My recollection was that Alissa skated a better LP than Laura - and I happen to be a fan of Laura's skating.

Many of the Ladies at Worlds were only completing 3-4 triples and I recall the winner only had 5.
Since Alissa usually scores very high on her spins and spirals I thought her score could have been higher - and I am sure it would have been if she had skated in the last bracket.

ETA: Here is Alissa's LP. The Canadian announcers said she only had one jump - her 3 Loop downgraded. Maybe the 2nd 3Lutz also got dinged. I still thought it was one of the better LP's from Worlds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIqNbpteais

 

[Mathman]

I look at it like this.

Suppose the Powers That Be decide -- suppose that they have already decided -- that Lysacek, Weir and Abbott are the three best skaters.

Now comes Brandon Mroz: "Hey, I think I'm the best skater. Let me come to Spokane and prove it."

Comes Adam Rippon: "Hey, I think I'm the best skater. Let me come to Spokane and prove it."

Comes Stephen Carrierre: "Hey, I think I'm the best skater. Let me come to Spokane and prove it."

OK, come and prove it. :yes:

 

[janetfan]

I look at it like this.

Suppose the Powers That Be decide -- suppose that they have already decided -- that Lysacek, Weir and Abbott are the three best skaters.

Now comes Brandon Mroz: "Hey, I think I'm the best skater. Let me come to Spokane and prove it."

Comes Adam Rippon: "Hey, I think I'm the best skater. Let me come to Spokane and prove it."

Comes Stephen Carrierre: "Hey, I think I'm the best skater. Let me come to Spokane and prove it."

OK, come and prove it. :yes:

Maybe Ryan will try and prove it too.

 

[Mathman]

Maybe Ryan will try and prove it too.

No fair if Ryan comes. He has a quad.

 

[silverlake22]

The ladies that finish 1 and 2 at nats will go to the Olympics, I'm quite sure of it. The question is will the judging that leads to those results be fair? I hope so, but it's hard to say. I feel like 1 and 2 will be any combination of: Rachael, Ashley, Alissa, Mirai, Caroline and Sasha if she shows. I also tend to think after the controversial judging last year and what happened at worlds after it, whoever skates the best out of the group of ladies I listed above will finish 1 and 2.

What I am more curious to see is if a skater NOT in the above group blows away the competition and the contenders have an off night, what will happen then. So say Angela Maxwell does a great SP but is kept down in the standings because of reputation, say somewhere between 5th and 10th place but points are close, but then does a FS with 6-7 triples and lots of energy while the contenders falter (each land 3 or 4 clean triples in the free), would the USFSA let her finish 1st or 2nd? In this situation she probably deserved to be higher after the SP and probably deserves to be 2nd, but my fear is they would pass her over for one of the contenders. I could see this being a possibility with a number of skaters: Alexe Gilles, Christina Gao, etc.

So what will happen? Is the fight for the ladies Olympic team really only between 5 or 6 skaters? Does anyone else even have a shot?

 

[R.D.]

In previous years, usually the first two spots were already pre-determined (two skaters head and shoulders above everyone else) and only the third spot was up for grabs. This year is unique in that a) there are only two spots and b) there are no pre-determined spots. It's truly a free-for-all. If the event is judged fairly, then we're good to go.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

My recollection was that Alissa skated a better LP than Laura - and I happen to be a fan of Laura's skating.

Many of the Ladies at Worlds were only completing 3-4 triples and I recall the winner only had 5.
Since Alissa usually scores very high on her spins and spirals I thought her score could have been higher - and I am sure it would have been if she had skated in the last bracket.

ETA: Here is Alissa's LP. The Canadian announcers said she only had one jump - her 3 Loop downgraded. Maybe the 2nd 3Lutz also got dinged. I still thought it was one of the better LP's from Worlds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIqNbpteais

1. Czisny got credit for two triple lutzes (both in combination) and a triple flip. Her triple loop was underroated. She doubled her toe loop.

2. I'm not sure what you mean about "many" so I went and checked (fully rotated, falls noted and number lowered).

6 triples: Flatt, Leonova
5 triples: Rochette, Ando (+UR loop), Asada (+ fall on an ur triple axel), Suguri*, Pokyio (credit for six but fall on one)
4 triples: Kim, Meier*, Reitmayerova*, Phaneuf (she got credit for six, fell on two, and her seventh was UR and she fell)*, Jurkiewiscz*, Glebova (+ 1 UR), Didier (+ 1 triple that was invalid)
3 triples: Gedevanishivili*, Czisny, Lepisto (credit for four, fell on one), McCorkell (+ 1 UR)*, Dytrt (+ 1UR), Karademir (+ 2 URs)*, Na-Young Kim (+ 1 UR)
1 triple: Kostner* (+ UR on one), Frank (+1 UR), Cantu (1 UR)

So, in short, yes, 14 of 24 skaters got credit for 3-4 triple jumps, but she beat a few skaters who got credit for more than she did triple jump wise.

Also, as stated by the announcers, she wasn't particularly fast and "had her eyes down" which likely hurt her PCS. I don't think Czisny was "fraudulently" marked.

 

[silverlake22]

So, in short, yes, 14 of 24 skaters got credit for 3-4 triple jumps, but she beat a few skaters who got credit for more than she did triple jump wise.

Also, as stated by the announcers, she wasn't particularly fast and "had her eyes down" which likely hurt her PCS. I don't think Czisny was "fraudulently" marked.

Good analysis, and I agree. Czisny got a 106 for that performance and has only been getting 100s this season for 3 triple LPs that have more emotion. I think that score was very fair considering she normally has a fall or two and up to 3 URs in her LPs this season.

 

[R.D.]

A similar performance from Alyssa last year at Nats got her 12 points higher- 112...which is fine, except that Rachel should have been scored closer to 120 to balance things out. With the score Rachel got, Alyssa's score should have been closer to 100. But probably wouldn't have changed the results anyway come to think of it.

 

[Tinymavy15]

A similar performance from Alyssa last year at Nats got her 12 points higher- 112...which is fine, except that Rachel should have been scored closer to 120 to balance things out. With the score Rachel got, Alyssa's score should have been closer to 100. But probably wouldn't have changed the results anyway come to think of it.

Even if the results don't change, i am not a fan of over/under scoring. It makes the skaters who are doing throw up thier hands in dispair and say "how is she 20points better than me? even at my best?"

When I compete I like to kow where I stand compared to my competitors. Was I 10 points off the podium or did I just miss it becuase of a silly mistake? Can i win if i get another level on my spirals or am I just out of the leauge?

 

[PolymerBob]

What I am more curious to see is if a skater NOT in the above group blows away the competition and the contenders have an off night, what will happen then. So say Angela Maxwell does a great SP but is kept down in the standings because of reputation, say somewhere between 5th and 10th place but points are close, but then does a FS with 6-7 triples and lots of energy while the contenders falter (each land 3 or 4 clean triples in the free), would the USFSA let her finish 1st or 2nd?

One of three things can happen.

1) Angela gets gold and goes to the Olympics.
2) Angela gets gold but is kept off the team, though she goes to Worlds.
3) Angela is held down to 3rd or 4th. No Olympics nor Worlds.

So what will happen? Is the fight for the ladies Olympic team really only between 5 or 6 skaters? Does anyone else even have a shot?

I'm not sure about this. Do we just want to tell the other 20 skaters to stay home?

 

[gkelly]

One of three things can happen.

1) Angela gets gold and goes to the Olympics.
2) Angela gets gold but is kept off the team, though she goes to Worlds.
3) Angela is held down to 3rd or 4th. No Olympics nor Worlds.

Logically, I think you need to replace "gold" with "gold or silver" in 1) and 2).

I'm not sure about this. Do we just want to tell the other 20 skaters to stay home?

There are other benefits to competing at Nationals besides qualifying for the Olympics. No reason for anyone to stay home even if they know they can't qualify.

Nor does it hurt to dream big, as long as they also understand the reality of their chances.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe, I am surprised that you -- of all people! -- are so supportive of this All-knowing and All-powerful Committee that sits on high and tells the rest of us what to think.

Don't you feel that it would be better, when a prize is up for grabs, to hold a contest to decide the issue once and for all?

To the victor go the spoils. Isn't that the essence of sports?
Don't be surprized MM. I understand your thinking.[/QU
OTE]
You just don't understand mine.

What is the Committe supposed to do. Should it just rubber stamp the results of the US Nats? You don't seem to want to answer that question.

From what you said, do you think it should be abolished? All-knowing and All-powerful Committee that sits on high and tells the rest of us what to think
That surprises me that you do not stick by the Rules

The Summer Olys do have some's Oly Trials, but not all.of them. It's usually for Racing and for those who do not travel the circuit all season. The US has an outstanding competitor in the Winter Olys for the Biathalon. The US has never had a Biathalon contender in its history. Should he be tested now?

Are you saying there is no alternative to selecting the Team? Don't you feel that it would be better, when a prize is up for grabs, to hold a contest to decide the issue once and for all? I think the Figure Skating contenders have had ample time to prove their worth. There is little decision to be made by an additional contest except to ensure the lesser contenders have a chance to be noticed. Someone like Bebe Liang.There is more decision to be made when a 'favorite' falters based on ONE competition . In fact, I believe the upcoming Nats will not show any upsets by the top contenders, and the Committe will agree to the results.

However, if Davis/White fail to qualify, you can be sure the posters will clamor for the right of the Committee to select them and eliminate another Team. No?


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[Mathman]

What is the Committe supposed to do. Should it just rubber stamp the results of the US Nats?

Yes.

From what you said, do you think it should be abolished?

Well, usually I am for abolishing all committees. But this committee has other functions, such as deciding who gets sent to Grand Prix events. They also are called upon to make a decision in the case of medical byes. So I guess I won't abolish it altogether, this time. (They better mind their p's and q's in the future, though.)

That surprises me that you do not stick by the Rules.

I love rules, as long as I am the one who gets to make them. Here is my rule. First and second at Nationasl go to the Olympics (or first, second and third if we have three spots.)

Are you saying there is no alternative to selecting the Team?

There are alternatives, but they all stink, compared to: "first and second at Nationals go."

However, if Davis/White fail to qualify, you can be sure the posters will clamor for the right of the Committee to select them and eliminate another Team. No?

Posters on the Internet will clamor no matter what. I say, do the right thing and let 'em clamor.

 

[silverlake22]

One of three things can happen.

1) Angela gets gold and goes to the Olympics.
2) Angela gets gold but is kept off the team, though she goes to Worlds.
3) Angela is held down to 3rd or 4th. No Olympics nor Worlds.

I'm with you on this but the question is still, if a non-contender skates the best, which thing of the above 3 will happen? My fear is option number 3, though it would be very upsetting. That being said, a non-contender has to do really well for the USFSA to even be put in this situation in the first place though, so we will just have to wait and see.

I just really hope at least one of the ladies top contenders skates well and lands more than 4 triples in the free, instead of a splatfest. *knock on wood* 2 more weeks!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yes.



Well, usually I am for abolishing all committees. But this committee has other functions, such as deciding who gets sent to Grand Prix events. They also are called upon to make a decision in the case of medical byes. So I guess I won't abolish it altogether, this time. (They better mind their p's and q's in the future, though.)



I love rules, as long as I am the one who gets to make them. Here is my rule. First and second at Nationasl go to the Olympics (or first, second and third if we have three spots.)



There are alternatives, but they all stink, compared to: "first and second at Nationals go."



Posters on the Internet will clamor no matter what. I say, do the right thinhg and let 'em clamor.

OK. Neither of us will bend on this, so it's an 'agree to disnagree'. You want the Nats to decide who goes to the Olys, and I .want a well appointed Cttee to decide based on 'who's hot this season'

Given the strength of the US skaters this season, I expect the top contenders will place the same at the Nats as they have all season, so that the Results will be in line with the Cttee's thinking.

The one question will be Senior Ladies. Which two? and will the Cttee agree?

As to the Oly outcome, there is an excellent chance that no one will win. Since Domnina and Shabalin are back in the mix, US Skate Dance teams may well be off the podium. My outlook for the entire US Team however it is chosen, is grim.

 

[PolymerBob]

OK. Neither of us will bend on this, so it's an 'agree to disnagree'. You want the Nats to decide who goes to the Olys, and I .want a well appointed Cttee to decide based on 'who's hot this season'

Of course, there is a chance you are both right. Maybe this well appointed committee will jury-rig National results to reflect "who's hot this season".

 

[silverlake22]

Of course, there is a chance you are both right. Maybe this well appointed committee will jury-rig National results to reflect "who's hot this season".

The only problem with this is that some skaters were "hot" at one competition this season and "not" at another. I'm thinking about the ladies in particular, the only one that's had more than one "hot" event this season is Ashley

 

[Mathman]

Given the strength of the US skaters this season, I expect the top contenders will place the same at the Nats as they have all season, so that the Results will be in line with the Cttee's thinking.

I agree with that. In a way, I think this whole argument is about nothing because when the smoke clears the choices will be obvious no matter what method is used.

The one question will be Senior Ladies. Which two? and will the Cttee agree?

I think the committee will agree with the results of nationals. Since there is no clear front-runner, the committee will have no reason not to simply endorse the nationals podium.

As to the Oly outcome, there is an excellent chance that no one will win. Since Domnina and Shabalin are back in the mix, US Skate Dance teams may well be off the podium. My outlook for the entire US Team however it is chosen, is grim.

I think Davis and White are the real McCoy this year. I saw them skate their Nutcracker exhibition program last night. I think they are a legitimate candidate for gold in Vancouver. Lysacek could also medal, although there is lots of competition in mens.

Of course, there is a chance you are both right. Maybe this well appointed committee will jury-rig National results to reflect "who's hot this season".

For some reason, that's the one thing I am not worried about. The dreaded Committee has no particular power over the judges. Why would the judges care what the committee wants?

Plus, what possible reason would the committee have for wanting one skater to win rather than another?