Just HOW will the U.S. teams be picked?

[chuckm]

But Nationals should be its OWN competition. Every skater should come in with the slate wiped clean, and say, skate for it.

I agree, that's how it should be. But it wasn't quite that way at Nationals 2009. Alissa started off with a huge advantage with a superinflated SP score and then was propped up with an even more inflated FS score for a poor performance.

I think Nationals techies should not be ignoring URs and edge violations for certain skaters the way they have in the past. It gives an unfair advantage to skaters with poor jump technique and penalizes those who use correct technique.

 

[janetfan]

No, I don't. You are SO fond of taking my words and twisting them to mean something that was never intended.

My point was that Rachael didn't devote her entire summer to skating like most of the other ladies, so she wasn't quite in top competition shape for Cup of China. And that's OK, because it isn't the best thing to peak early in the season and then flag later. It isn't as if she bombed at CoC, either---she was 4th, and scored close to what Czisny did at HER first GP. At Skate America, Rachael skated a clean SP, earned a PB with her FS score and is #5 on the ISU Seasons Best score list.

OTOH, Czisny skated in several summer comps and got outrageously high scores. Then she won Nebelhorn (scoring only 91.02 in the FS) against a group of ladies who were clearly not quite ready for competition themselves. Alissa barely cracked 100 in both her GP free skates.

Where Rachael improved her performances from one competition to the next, Alissa improved only her SP but had multiple URs in her FS.



Again, word twisting. My point was that Rachael handles pressure VERY well, not that past performance at one Nationals should have an effect on future Nationals. BTW, Mirai had no expectations going into her first Senior Nationals in 2008, while Rachael (who'd finished 5th as a Senior in 2007) probably was aiming for the podium in 2008, so the pressure was higher on Rachael. In 2009, Mirai, as defending champion, succumbed to pressure while Rachael did not. Rachael handled the pressure of her first Worlds just fine, finishing 5th. Alissa was 16th at her first Worlds and 11th at her second.



Rachael has never earned anything through a "backroom deal", and once again, you have twisted my words to mean something not intended. OTOH, there were many who felt that Alissa's US Championship owed much to off-ice dealings.

As we saw at Worlds 2009, it's what happens on Nationals ice that prefigures what happens at the big competitions. Rachael has been the steady competitor. Alissa has not.

You have a very bad habit of deliberately misinterpreting and miscontruing my words to suit your own prejudices.

I thought I was using your own words but offering a different point of view.

Here is something to consider:
You state "Mirai succumbed to pressure" when we all know Mirai was injured, undertrained and having problems with her coach. I will leave the growth spurt out of it
I think my remarks might be closer to the truth - but that is no reason to put Mirai or any other girl on the Natl team.

It would be of great interest to me and many GS posters if you could reveal your secret information about the "off-ice dealings" that earned Alissa a spot on the Natl team last season.

Am I twisting your words again :scratch:
I think I am just wondering about some of your remarks.

Now, more about the backroom Czisny deal - because I thought Alissa was the US Ladies Natl champion last season. I thought that was why she was on the Natl team and went to Worlds.

 

[R.D.]

I agree, that's how it should be. But it wasn't quite that way at Nationals 2009. Alissa started off with a huge advantage with a superinflated SP score and then was propped up with an even more inflated FS score for a poor performance.

I think Nationals techies should not be ignoring URs and edge violations for certain skaters the way they have in the past. It gives an unfair advantage to skaters with poor jump technique and penalizes those who use correct technique.

I have a funny feeling that it won't happen again this year- they probably want the selection of the Oly team to have as little controversy as possible

 

[chuckm]

I thought I was using your own words to offer a differening view.

Here is something to consider:
You state "Mirai succumbed to pressure" when we all know Mirai was injured, undertrained and having problems with her coach. I will leave the growth spurt out of it
I think my remarks might be closer to the truth.

Yes, Mirai was injured, but she also went out on the ice to do her FS crying. She was still weepy in her GP events this season. Clearly, Mirai is particularly vulnerable to pressure. That was my point.

It would be of great interest to me and many GS posters if you could reveal your secret information about the "off-ice dealings" that earned Alissa a spot on the Natl team last season.

I was at Nationals last year. Although Alissa's SP was very good, her ultrahigh score made me scratch my head. Her FS was disastrous, yet she scored 112.31 for a FS that would have earned less than 100 in international competition. I am not the only one who has found Alissa's 2009 win to be controversial, and others have expressed the same opinion on this board. Where have you been ?

Now, more about the backroom Czisny deal - because I thought Alissa was the US Ladies Natl champion last season. I thought that was why she was on the Natl team and went to Worlds.

Your point? Alissa won the title under what some people feel was controversial circumstances. She went to Worlds and finished 11th.

 

[janetfan]

I was at Nationals last year. Although Alissa's SP was very good, her ultrahigh score made me scratch my head. Her FS was disastrous, yet she scored 112.31 for a FS that would have earned less than 100 in international competition. I am not the only one who has found Alissa's 2009 win to be controversial, and others have expressed the same opinion on this board. Where have you been ?



Your point? Alissa won the title under what some people feel was controversial circumstances. She went to Worlds and finished 11th.

It sounds more like you are complaining about the judging. I have read many comments about that at GS but you said there was "off-ice dealings."

I am quick to complain about judging and can understand if you thought the judging was bad. Watching on TV last year - I was sort of with Scott - I was hoping Alissa had done enough in her LP to win the National championship.

We do look at things differently depending on how our favorites get marked.

 

[chuckm]

I could never have as a favorite a skater who consistently fails to deliver when it really counts. That's why Alissa Czisny, as lovely as she is and as beautiful as her spins and spirals are, will never be a favorite of mine.

While I can appreciate Alissa's good qualities as a skater, that doesn't mean I am going to root for her to represent the US at Olympics or Worlds.

At Worlds, she has disappointed, finishing 16th in 2007, and in 2009, her 11th place finish cost the US an Olympic ladies berth---if she had finished 8th or better, the US would have had 3 spots in Vancouver. Alissa is not a top-10 World skater because she is not a strong competitor and cannot control her nerves in major competitions.

I just want Nationals to be judged fairly and even-handedly this year.

 

[Mathman]

The first two-thirds of Alissa's long program at Nationals was preety good. She made two bad technical mistakes at the end. I did not think the scoring was outrageous. She was placed behind both Rachael and Ashley, as was appropriate.

As for the SP, I think one factor was that all the ladies who skated before Alissa made major errors, and the Big Show was starting to look like a splat-fest. Maybe the judges were so relieved when Alissa dekivered a clean and sharp program that they were feeling extra generous. The same thing happen in Mirai's favor the year before.

Actually, as much as I like both Mirai and Alissa, I think Rachael should have won both of those championships. "Third time pays for all."

 

[janetfan]

I could never have as a favorite a skater who consistently fails to deliver when it really counts. That's why Alissa Czisny, as lovely as she is and as beautiful as her spins and spirals are, will never be a favorite of mine.

While I can appreciate Alissa's good qualities as a skater, that doesn't mean I am going to root for her to represent the US at Olympics or Worlds.

.

You would be surprised how I am able to root for most of the USA Ladies. I will not be upset by which two go to the Olympics.

I will be disappointed and upset if a deal is made and a girl who wasn't able to win on the ice is gifted a spot on the Olympic team.

I happen to like Mirai and Alissa but that doesn't mean I want any favors for them. Let the top two go to Vancouver. That includes Sasha if she skates and beats the others.

 

[R.D.]

Same here. I have my picks but in the end the best two should go to Vancouver. The controversial part of all this- what has sparked multiple multi-page threads- is that whether the "best two" consist of the top 2 at Nationals, or whether it should be based on an assortment of recent events. If multiple Americans made it to the GPF, I could see such a scenario working (like the Japanese are doing) but then again, didn't Japan select its team based on "faves" in 2006 and that happened to turn out disastrous for them? Selecting "favorites" could put more pressure on the athletes as well come to think of it. Let's just hope the Nats are judged fairly and I think it will end up coming out the same, anyway. Czisny imploded at Worlds, yes, but didn't Zhang also implode (in the SP) at Junior Worlds? And look at the egg she laid at SC...Nothing is ever a done deal.

 

[chuckm]

The first two-thirds of Alissa's long program at Nationals was preety good. She made two bad technical mistakes at the end. I did not think the scoring was outrageous. She was placed behind both Rachael and Ashley, as was appropriate.

I still think that 112.31 for a 3-triple FS with a fall and a doubled (2T+2T) combo was much too high. The triples she landed were the first 3 in the FS, then everything fell apart after the fall on the second lutz attempt. Yes, she skated the first third of her FS well, but after the fall, her performance factor plummeted. She skated slowly, like a zombie, without spirit. For that reason, I think her PCS score was way out of proportion to what she did on the ice.

Actually, as much as I like both Mirai and Alissa, I think Rachael should have won both of those championships.

Rachael did win the FS in 2008, and was 2nd in the FS in 2009. I think if Alissa's 2009 FS was scored fairly, based on performance, Rachael would have won.

 

[R.D.]

Rachael did win the FS in 2008, and was 2nd in the FS in 2009. I think if Alissa's 2009 FS was scored fairly, based on performance, Rachael would have won.

I think MM also pointed out that if the placements were the same, and the 6.0 scoring system was used, Rachel would have won based on placements. How crazy is that...

 

[janetfan]

I think MM also pointed out that if the placements were the same, and the 6.0 scoring system was used, Rachel would have won based on placements. How crazy is that...

Not crazy at all -

 

[R.D.]

Not crazy at all -

Right. Sort of the point...

 

[Mathman]

I could never have as a favorite a skater who consistently fails to deliver when it really counts.

Oh, gosh, I can. Maybe this will be the time! Go Bebe!!!!!!!

The controversial part of all this- what has sparked multiple multi-page threads- is that whether the "best two" consist of the top 2 at Nationals, or whether it should be based on an assortment of recent events.

Yeah, we kind of got off track on this thread.. The original question was, How WILL the USFSA choose the Olympic team, not how SHOULD they.

 

[chuckm]

Czisny imploded at Worlds, yes, but didn't Zhang also implode (in the SP) at Junior Worlds? And look at the egg she laid at SC...Nothing is ever a done deal.

But despite her bad SP, Zhang won the FS at 2009 JW with a score of over 107 and beat out Wagner for the silver medal. Wagner was 2nd in the SP, two points ahead of Leonova, and she could have won the competition, but she choked.

 

[Trewyn]

^^Ashley was having major health problems at the time of 2009 Jr Worlds; they had to run and EKG on her at the rink the day of the long program! We don't know if her 'choking' had more to do with nerves or with the fact that she was ill at the time. It's crazy how the FS results of JR Worlds rolled in.. No one expected Caroline to overtake Ashley in the LP after that SP...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But Nationals should be its OWN competition. Every skater should come in with the slate wiped clean, and say, skate for it.

Then if Czisny or Sasha do not do well, you would not have the Cttee to select one of those Ladies. And, if Bebe Liang gets second at Nationals, you agree that she is one of the two most powerful skaters to represent the US at the Olympics. Yes? I think the countries are supposed to send their best all round skaters to the Olys

In other words, the US Nats will determine who are the skaters to represent
America at the Olys. This will be the best that the US has to offer. No?

Go Bebe, Kimmie and Alexe Gilles!!!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I get the feeling of favoritism here. The best skaters during the year up to the Nats were obviously Rachael and Ashlley but there are stronger feelings for skaters who mean more to some posters, and they are hopeful their favorite gets silver or gold with no interference by the system. Yes?

Since the Board is heavily interested in the Ladies division, there is no caring about the other divisions. Go Evan, Go Jeremy, Go Johnny. No Adam?

 

[R.D.]

Then if Czisny or Sasha do not do well, you would not have the Cttee to select one of those Ladies. And, if Bebe Liang gets second at Nationals, you agree that she is one of the two most powerful skaters to represent the US at the Olympics. Yes? I think the countries are supposed to send their best all round skaters to the Olys

Liang COULD get second but I would be shocked. I mean, even if she hits it in the FS, I just don't imagine she'd have the firepower to get in the top 2. Maybe top 5 though. I don't think the committee will be in a situation that they'd have to choose between her and someone else.

I mean, anyone not named Zhang/Nagasu/Czisny/Wagner/Flatt...the "SS" (Surprise Skater) most likely to sneak in...tough to say. Based on the GP, maybe Alexe Gilles.

Czisny could either win the event or be 10th depending on how she skates. I think if she falters in the SP, it's basically over for her...I don't see her getting a monster score for a less-than-perfect FS. A perfect one could pull her up but I don't think it would be into top 2 territory.

So many questions. At least the wait is less than a month before we know.

In other words, the US Nats will determine who are the skaters to represent
America at the Olys. This will be the best that the US has to offer. No?

It doesn't necessarily have to be that way but I think more likely than not, the results will come out that way.

Go Bebe, Kimmie and Alexe Gilles!!!

If only...she was actually going to be there.

 

[silverlake22]

So I just want to say a few things.

About Rachael and her "bad" showing at CoC....she should have gotten the bronze medal there. Kiira got the silver but deserved 4th, if she had gotten 4th, Akiko would have been 1st, Joannie 2nd, and Rachael 3rd. If Rachael had gotten 3rd there like she deserved she would have gone to the GPF instead of Akiko (2+3 >1+5) and judging by what the other ladies did at the GPF, without Akiko there, Rachael probably would have gotten the bronze there too.

The next is about Mirai giving into pressure. So yes, she is a little emotional, but she does a very good job of staying on her feet which can NOT be said for Alissa. I think it showed a lot of strength what Mirai did at last year's nationals, sure she got both 3flips URed in the free, but she landed every jump. Plus she didn't really fall in the SP either. The same goes for this season, at CoC her SP was awesome, and she did have a lot of little mistakes in the FS, but she only fell once. At SC she definitely deserved to medal and the judging was bogus. So I don't think you can really say that Mirai melts under pressure in terms of her SKATING. The URs I think are more a function of her growth spurt more than anything else.

Also Sasha is COMPETING at nationals. There was an article saying so. She's attempting flip and lutz and has 6 triples planned in the free. I'm pissed.:scowl: