Just HOW will the U.S. teams be picked?

[ImaginaryPogue]

Silly question: Gao is 15 and won't turn sixteen until after the Olympics. So my hypothetical question can't happen, right? She can't go to the Olympics anyway. Or am I wrong?

 

[silverlake22]

Silly question: Gao is 15 and won't turn sixteen until after the Olympics. So my hypothetical question can't happen, right? She can't go to the Olympics anyway. Or am I wrong?

She turns 16 in March and I think as long as a competitor turns 16 before July 1st of the Olympic year he/she is eligible to compete. I'm not positive though. Otherwise they would have to make different rules for the summer and winter Olympics. If this were the summer Olympics, she would be 16 well before the games would begin.

 

[Mathman]

^ Yes. The way the rule is usually stated, the skater must turn 15 before July 1st of the previous year.

If Alissa can successfully defend her title with this kind of pressure and land 5 triples in the FS, then I think she makes her case that she can handle the pressure and go to the Olympics.

Well, that's the thing about the CoP. Whoever gets the most points wins. It doesn't matter how many triples they land or how many times they fall or how much pressure they can handle or whether they are a short program skater or a long program skater. Most points wins.

 

[gkelly]

Well, that's the thing about the CoP. Whoever gets the most points wins. It doesn't matter how many triples they land or how many times they fall or how much pressure they can handle or whether they are a short program skater or a long program skater. Most points wins.

Right. The skaters with better basic skating, spins, and presentation skills can afford to land fewer jumps than the ones whose biggest strength is landing jumps.

 

[Mathman]

Maybe we can put this discussion in perspective by looking at what the USFSA and its International Committee have done in the past. Here are the U.S. Olympic teams (ladies), together with the placements at nationals.

2006
Michelle Kwan (medical bye)
Sasha Cohen (1st at Nationals)
Kimmie Meissner (2nd at Nationals)
Emily Hughes, alternate (3rd at nationals)

2002
Michelle Kwan (1st at Nationals)
Sasha Cohen (2nd at Nationals)
Sarah Hughes (3rd at Nationals)

1998
Michelle Kwan (1st at Nationals)
Tara Lipinski (2nd at Nationals)
Nicole Bobek (3rd at Nationals)

1994
Nancy Kerrigan (medical bye)
Tonya Harding (1st at Nationals)
Michelle Kwan, alternate (2nd at Nationals)

1992
Kristi Yamaguchi (1st at Nationals)
Nancy Kerrigan (2nd at Nationals)
Tonya Harding (3rd at Nationals)

1988
Debi Thomas ( 1st at Nationals)
Jill trenary (2nd at Nationals)
Caryn Kadavy (3rd at Nationals)

1984
Rosalyn Sumners (1st at nationals)
Tiffaby Chin (2nd at Nationals)
Elaine Zayak (3rd at nationals)

1980
Linda Fratianne (1st at Nationals)
Lisa-Marie Allen (2nd at nationals)
Sandy lenz (3rd at Nationals)

1976
Dorothy Hamill (1st at Nationals)
Wendy Burge (2nd at Nationals)
Linda Fratianne (3rd at Nationals)

1972
Janet Lynn (1st at Nationals)
Julie Holmes (2nd at Nationals)
Suna Murray (3rd at Nationals)

1968
Peggy Fleming (1st at Nationaals
Albertina Noyes (2nd at Nationals)
Janet Lynn (3rd at Nationals)

1964
Peggy Fleming (1st at Nationals)
Albertina Noyes (2nd at Nationals)
Christina Haigler (3rd at Nationals)

1960
Carol Heiss (1st at Nationals)
Barbara Roles (2nd at Nationals)
Laurence Owen (3rd at Nationals)

1956
Tenley Albright (1st at Nationals)
Carol Heiss (2nd at Nationals)
Catherine Machado (3rd at Nationals)

1952
Sonya Klopfer (1st at Nationals)
Tenley Albright (2nd at Nationals)
Virginia Baxter (3rd at Nationals)

1948
Gretchen Merrill (1st at Nationals)
Yvonne Sherman (2nd at Nationals)
Eileen Seigh (?)

1936
Maribel Vinson (1st at Nationals)
Louise Weizel (2nd at Nationals)
Audrey Peppe (3rd at Nationals)
Estelle Weizel (?)

1932
Maribel Vinson (1st at Nationals)
Margaret Bennett (2nd at Nationals)
Louise Weizel (3rd at Nationals)
Suzanne Davis (?)

1928 (1927 Nationals)
Beatrix Loughram (1st at Nationals)
Miribel Vinson (2nd at Nationals)
Theresa Weld (3rd at Nationals)

1924 (1923 Nationals)
Theresa Weld (1st at Nationals)
Beatrix Loughran (2nd at Nationals)

1920
Teresa Weld (1st at Nationals)

1908
No U.S. participation. First U.S. Nationals was in 1914.

I think a pattern is emerging...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
Your listings presented no intricate decision making for the Committee. Had the Nationals in all those years been cancelled (hypothetically), those same skaters would be selected for their respective Olys based on past achievements without Nats..

This year, since the international competition is far more keener than those listed in your post, the Committee needs to work harder.

The only US skater that stands out based on several comps is Evan Lysacek and his chances for Gold at US Nats is almost obvious. He will be selected regardless. Abbott and Weir seem to fall into place at the US Nats, but Rippon could be selected if either of them falter and he skates his once-in-a-lifetime routine.

Ice Dance has two teams which stand out based on several previous comps. Should either of those teams falter at Nats, the Committee will select them anyway. The third Team is the one which has to skate their best at US Nats, and place well.

I think the second team for Pairs will be decided at the US Nats.

The Ladies, oooh, the Ladies. If the Committee does not have one in mind, then the Committee will accept the results of the Nats.

The Committee is there to ensure that the right skaters/teams go to the Oys. It is there perogative(sp) to accept the the Results of the Nats or note.

The Committee knows these skaters well, and who among them will rise to the occasion.

 

[janetfan]

^^^
The Committee is there to ensure that the right skaters/teams go to the Oys. It is there perogative(sp) to accept the the Results of the Nats or note.

The Committee knows these skaters well, and who among them will rise to the occasion.

The fact that the committee knows these skaters well can not be disputed. The fact that they will see who rises to the occassion at Natls also can't be denied.

That is why US Skating has always picked the medal winners from Nationals to represent us at the Olympics.

Right now the Ladies field should be wide open. If Rachael gets beaten by Ashley, Mirai or Alissa - or even Sasha - why does she automatically deserve a spot on the team. Last year Rachael may have been the best US lady but what about this year?

I feel the same way about all of the Ladies as none of them seem much better than the others.
All of these girls know their performance at Natls will decide whether they go to Vancouver or not.

What could possibly be more fair than competing for a spot on the team?

What could be more unfair than to beat a skater at Natls and then be told you don't deserve to go (maybe because of some extremely dubious and political judging so prevalent in the GP series?).

Just look at SC and how ridiculous the judging was at that event and try to tell Mirai should she finish 1 or 2 at Natls she is being passed over because of her ridiculous, unfair cheated placement at SC? Or even worse, because last year Rachael was better.......

Thanks but no thanks.
I prefer to leave the selection of our Natl team in the hands of our judges and with our rules that give every top skater a chance to win their place on the team if they are good enough when it counts the most.

It is called competition - and using this system the US has won many medals over the years. If our skaters are not good enough this year it won't because of how they are chosen. It will simply be because other skaters will outskate them in Vancouver.

But sending the skaters who fail at Natls is a sure recipe for disaster.

And there is no reason to have a "make pretend" National championship either as it would really destroy the best thing about skating in the USA which is Nationals

 

[Mathman]

The Committee is there to ensure that the right skaters/teams go to the Oys. It is their perogative(sp) to accept the the Results of the Nats or not.

Joe, I am surprised that you -- of all people! -- are so supportive of this All-knowing and All-powerful Committee that sits on high and tells the rest of us what to think.

Don't you feel that it would be better, when a prize is up for grabs, to hold a contest to decide the issue once and for all?

To the victor go the spoils. Isn't that the essence of sports?

 

[PolymerBob]

It's gotten to the point where I don't care what method they use, as long as they let us know ahead of time. If you take a look at my first post in this thread, it must be one of those 5 methods. I suppose they could use one method for the ladies, another for pairs, etc.

And unfortunately, 2 of those 5 methods entail a National Championship that is not judged fairly.

 

[R.D.]

Like I said before, what if USFS sticks to their guns and sends 1 & 2 to Olys. Then suppose a Surprise Skater sneaks into the pack to disrupt things. Does SS get sent to Olys (assuming she's old enough) and a more dependable team is picked for worlds? IOW, should the two teams be different in order to a) please the sticklers and b) ensure a maximum chance of 3 spots next year? Or should they be the same no matter what?

 

[Sylvia]

Thank you Sylvia and MM for going after the fact that the Int'l Cttee does make the final decision on the Team selection for the Olys.

As I had said at the beginning of this thread that the Int'l Cttee would have more weight than the placement results of the Nationals.

I further contend what else I said about no management would allow a member to go based on one competition:

I would assume the following will be considered:

a) Results of 2010 US Nats (not necessarily the winner)

b) Results of 2009 GP Final (how well they performed under fire)

c) Previous Oly experiene (how well they performed under fire)

There's no need to "assume" because c) is not one of the 5 listed events.

As gkelly posted earlier in this thread, the 4 other events that are supposed to be considered after the GP Final are, in priority order: 2009 Worlds, 2009 Four Continents, and 2009 Junior Worlds, and the Junior Grand Prix Final in December 2009.

(Interesting that Mitchell is on this year's Committee)

For the record, Mitchell is not on this year's International Committee. It is my understanding that the updated list of International Committee and ICMS members should be published online soon.

 

[janetfan]

It's gotten to the point where I don't care what method they use, as long as they let us know ahead of time. If you take a look at my first post in this thread, it must be one of those 5 methods. I suppose they could use one method for the ladies, another for pairs, etc.

And unfortunately, 2 of those 5 methods entail a National Championship that is not judged fairly.

What if after last season's WTT US Skating announced that Caroline and Rachael would be the two Ladies for our Olympic and World teams in 2010?

And then we see neither of them have a very good GP season and maybe both would fail to finish 1 or 2 at Nationals.

How would that be sending our two best skaters to the Olympics? That sounds so silly that thankfully it will never be considered.

Taking the results from past competitions is valid - but is mostly for use in "extraordinary" circumstances. Maybe when a skater is injured or was too sick to compete at Natls, or if a skater who medaled then got injured before the Olympics/Worlds needs a replacement.

Many want figure skating to be considered a "real sport" but seem afraid of actually letting the skaters compete for their place on the team.

Think of how the Super Bowl is decided? When a team like the undefeated New England Patriots has a bad game are they still considered the Champions?
Do NFL officials need a secret meeting to decide if the Patriots were really better and that the game must be replayed because the Giants are not worthy champions? Or just ignore the result and declare the Patriots better?

Maybe no system is perfect but picking the losers of a Natl Championship over the winners is just not the way things are done in real sports. That is how they might do things at beauty pageants and to it's credit US Skating has always said if you are our National medalist then you are the ones to represent us at International championships.

Forget the GP series - it is nothing more than a money maker for ISU.
And what happened to last seasons "GPF Champions?"
I don't think either of them made the podium at Worlds.

 

[Sylvia]

My understanding is that the national champion is guaranteed a spot on the world team, unless ineligible by age as was the case with Nagasu and McLaughlin in 2008.

Correct, the current USFS rule states that all the 2010 U.S. national champions will automatically qualify for 2010 Worlds (unless they are not age-eligible).

 

[gkelly]

It's gotten to the point where I don't care what method they use, as long as they let us know ahead of time. If you take a look at my first post in this thread, it must be one of those 5 methods. I suppose they could use one method for the ladies, another for pairs, etc.

And unfortunately, 2 of those 5 methods entail a National Championship that is not judged fairly.

So you don't care if they use a method that entails an unfairly judged Nationals, as long as they let you know ahead of time that they're going to judge Nationals unfairly?


How about if they came right out and said "The ladies and pairs named to the Olympics will be the top two age-eligible finishers at Nationals. The men's and dance teams named will be the top three finishers at Nationals, or the top two plus a reigning world medalist or Grand Prix Final champion should a skater/team with those credentials be forced to withdraw from Nationals"?

Because I fully expect that to be the case.

 

[R.D.]

I think the main concern here is fair judging. Will the winner actually DESERVE the victory, without a doubt? Choosing based solely on nationals is fair ONLY if the judging at nats is fair (i.e. what the skaters put out on the ice THAT NIGHT is judged, with NO consideration as to what happened in the past (that is, no propping up of faves that have a rough night, nor holding down of skaters that didn't have such a good start to the season). Otherwise you may as well pick from other events, right?

 

[janetfan]

I think the main concern here is fair judging. Will the winner actually DESERVE the victory, without a doubt? Choosing based solely on nationals is fair ONLY if the judging at nats is fair (i.e. what the skaters put out on the ice THAT NIGHT is judged, with NO consideration as to what happened in the past (that is, no propping up of faves that have a rough night, nor holding down of skaters that didn't have such a good start to the season). Otherwise you may as well pick from other events, right?

You open up an unpleasant can of worms.

Who says these past events you want to consider were judged fairly either?

 

[R.D.]

No, no, it's not that I want to consider past events. It's simply a point I'm trying to make. And yes, I agree, it could well be walking a very fine line doing so. But, IMHO, it's ALSO walking a fine line to allow the outcomes of those events to influence the outcome of "the" event. We can only hope, but last year did not give too much encouagement IMO.

 

[janetfan]

No, no, it's not that I want to consider past events. It's simply a point I'm trying to make. And yes, I agree, it could well be walking a very fine line doing so. But, IMHO, it's ALSO walking a fine line to allow the outcomes of those events to influence the outcome of "the" event. We can only hope, but last year did not give too much encouagement IMO.

Imo what happened last year at Worlds was unusual. Alissa is typically one ot the better SP skaters but she did not do well.

What happened after that was unfortunately predictable. Alissa got bumped down and then when she skated a decent LP she was not marked fairly.

Her LP was one of the better LP's at Worlds, much better than Caro or Laura for instance - but Alissa was held down by fraudulent CoP reputation scoring.

Apparently someone forgot to tell the judges that the 6.0 era was over - and that any skater doing a good job in the lower brackets did NOT have to be held down to leave room for the others.

Any skater at any big event may have a bad performance of their SP.
I would not hold that against a skater for the rest of their career - or even after that event. To do so only shows favoritism and imo a lack of sportsmanship.

If Alissa finishes 1 or 2 at Natls I will be happy for her and would be happy to see her represent the USA at the Olympics. But I feel that way about the others too.

It appears the fans who really have a favorite are the ones most unhappy about a National championship determining our team.

To that I say have a little faith in your favorite!

 

[n_halifax]

To that I say have a little faith in your favorite!

Well said! :thumbsup: May the best ladies finish first and second... and everyone skate fantastically and have a most good time. :yes:

 

[museksk8r]

Imo what happened last year at Worlds was unusual. Alissa is typically one ot the better SP skaters but she did not do well.

What happened after that was unfortunately predictable. Alissa got bumped down and then when she skated a decent LP she was not marked fairly.

Her LP was one of the better LP's at Worlds, much better than Caro or Laura for instance - but Alissa was held down by fraudulent CoP reputation scoring.

Apparently someone forgot to tell the judges that the 6.0 era was over - and that any skater doing a good job in the lower brackets did NOT have to be held down to leave room for the others.

Any skater at any big event may have a bad performance of their SP.
I would not hold that against a skater for the rest of their career - or even after that event. To do so only shows favoritism and imo a lack of sportsmanship.

Yes, the same applies for Jeremy Abbott at the GPF where he outskated Evan Lysacek in the LP, but due to a very flawed SP, Jeremy's PCS were held down so that Evan could still win the title. Jeremy pounced Evan on the LP technical mark though. That's where the judging manipulation takes place - the PCS scoring. No one will ever convince me that Lysacek has better skating skills, transitions, choreography, or musical interpretation than Abbott. Evan has the momentum so far and that's why he receives high PCS, not because of the actual quality of his skating, IMO. Skate a flawed SP and your LP PCS will suffer, no matter what you do technically!