- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I'm not sure what competition you were watching, but at Worlds, Kwan performed exactly one 3/2/2 in the LP. Perhaps you were including the instant replays?TheVoiceofReason said:
Kwan at the Crossroads and Choices
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
- Start date
I don't know why people b!tch so much about Irina holding her leg on her spiral (it's only a Biellmann when it's a spin). Irina looks the best when she holds her leg just like Sasha has perfect splits on everything she does (Charlotte, I-spin, Split jump, split spiral) so why doesn't everyone complain and ban split positions b/c they are so overused.
Irina has a horrible spiral position which despite her good edges and change of edges, does nothing for her. Now she has a good postion and you can finally appreciate what she's doing with her feet.
There are only so many postions you can attain in skating. We should probably limit the arabesque position to only one time in a program so a skater can only do a spiral or a camel spin but not both.
Irina has a horrible spiral position which despite her good edges and change of edges, does nothing for her. Now she has a good postion and you can finally appreciate what she's doing with her feet.
There are only so many postions you can attain in skating. We should probably limit the arabesque position to only one time in a program so a skater can only do a spiral or a camel spin but not both.
Whoo hoo. Way to twist the words of everybody on here.- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Unfortunately, I can't, as in all three attempts at Worlds and at least two (televised) at Euros, she vacillated from edge to edge on her standing blade until she got her working leg up into position. From there, she took mostly deep and solid edges.soogar said:
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
That's so true. Irina wrestles like crazy to get those hands to grab those blades in the back of her head. (She should look at clips of Bielman herself and see how to do it properly.)hockeyfan228 said:
The wrestling takes away from the end result,imo. I can not see an acrobatic dancer making an issue of contorting herself. Just look at Cirque du Soleil. It all flows.
Joe
In Cirque du Soleil, those girls are former rhythmic gymnasts (most of them) and rhythmic gymnasts are extremely flexible but not very strong. So they can get themselves in the position easier than Irina but they don't have the strength to jump like Irina (and jumping is the key thing in skating). Irina really isn't naturally flexible. I read something or saw a profile that said that she has to stretch a lot to acheive those positions, I can believe too because unlike Sasha, Irina has problems getting her leg into a good spiral postion without assistance. She can do it if she holds the leg up though.
slutskayafan21 said:
Rochette's SP scores weren't 'inexplicably low'.
25.68 6.54 6.18 6.46 6.39 6.54 Worlds SP
25.64 6.55 6.20 6.45 6.40 6.45 TEB SP
25.04 6.20 6.20 6.30 6.30 6.30 Cup of China SP (1 fall)
They compare quite well to her PCS scores at TEB, where she placed 1st in both SP and FS.
Yes, they are on the low side compared to the scores of the top 6, but some of those PCS scores were very inflated (Slutskaya, Cohen, Sokolova) despite obvious mistakes, because they skated in the final group. Kwan had the best SP performance of the top 3, but her PCS scores were low, because she, too, didn't skate in the final group.
A true champion doesn't crumble just because the scores weren't as high as hoped. If Joannie Rochette can't handle the vagaries of competition, she is doomed to fail again and again.
It seems to me that the awkward contortions Irina has to go through to achieve her Biellmann positions should negatively affect her 'transitions' mark as well as the GOE. Sasha's and Michelle's spirals have great amplitude and edging, and they get into the positions smoothly without fumbling.
Sasha and Michelle just lift their legs up in the air so they wouldn't have to fumble. Lifting your leg up and then reaching back to grab it with both hands is extremely difficult on the ice while you are moving (I know b.c I was crazy enough to try it and I'm no world class athlete, however I can easily get my leg as high as Michelle's and do a decent spiral). When you do a spiral, your upper body naturally gets lower depending on how high you get your leg up there. Irina is going against nature by lifting the leg and then reaching back to grab it. Plus it's very treacherous because she can easily catch a toepick and pitch forward.
BTW, If Irina can do a Biellman jump I don't think anyone would be complaining about her getting extra credit for that one. She already did a jump-illusion-jump in her Worlds SP.
BTW, If Irina can do a Biellman jump I don't think anyone would be complaining about her getting extra credit for that one. She already did a jump-illusion-jump in her Worlds SP.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
It's much easier to jump on ice then it is on the floor. I and so many thousands of others have done both. We know the difference. It's the speed on ice that gets one up in the air. In dance one is limited in speed, and of course, dancers are more conscious of the music then skaters. For the most part, jumping as a dancer is just another step whereas in skating it's a trick. Big difference!
Irina is full of tricks. I can understand the 'wow' responses and the high scores. Where she gets a gift from the judges is her presentation which would never sell on stage, imo.
Joe
Irina is full of tricks. I can understand the 'wow' responses and the high scores. Where she gets a gift from the judges is her presentation which would never sell on stage, imo.
Joe
No it's not easier to jump on ice than on the floor. Or let me clarify that it's probably easier to get up in the air on ice, but harder to land on ice than on the floor. And there are lots of positions that a dancer can land in when jumping on the floor (forward and backward) whereas on the ice, the skater is limited to an upright backward position (unless the skater lands on two feet).
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Soogar - I presume you studied dance. And you know that the air turns from a standstill are tough. Some natural born jumpers can turn 3 revolutions in the air from a standstill. No one on ice can do that except maybe Surya. Jumps in dancing also demand that the legs and feet conform to the character of the music, and landing jumps must also conform to the music. Few skaters have any real beauty in their legs while in the air - nor do they have to. Dancers MUST! Landing in perfect fifth position is near impossible. Much easier to land on a back outside edge. Style in figure skating jumping is hardly necessary. I will admit, it is probably more dangerous on ice than on the floor but the rehab wards are full of dancers too.
I reiterate, Cirque du Soleil members do not wrestle to get their Bielmans.
Joe
I reiterate, Cirque du Soleil members do not wrestle to get their Bielmans.
Joe
That'a exactly what I meant in my previouse post. Some of GOEs give out to IS at the worlds were inflated. Right before the worlds TT commented both IS and MK based on observing their practices, she said that IS still need to refine every of her jump and spin every day (quoted from a post at FSU during the worlds, something along this line)....but she sure got the highest GOE at Mosco worlds. She could've won without those inflations. But one could always using these inflate marks help confidance.euterpe said:
Joesitz said:
Jumps in dance aren't heavily rotation based either. If judges valued split jumps and delayed axels as highly as they do triple jumps, then you would see more skaters paying attention to their legs and feet because they can work with the amplitude of the jump. Plus your upper body can vary when landing a jump in dance (I did some modern dance). You can land in a crouched postion, forward position, twist in a backward postion etc. On ice, landing in a forward position is not impossible (all those little half jumps), but doing a full split half jump (like a grand jete? is that right?) and landing forward isn't done in skating because landing forward there is a risk of falling backward. When there are different positional changes you can do it more to the music.
The Cirque du Soleil girls are so flexible that they can probably just lift their leg up in a Biellman position. They aren't required to jump or anything so they can just focus on flexibility. Irina has to have muscle to do the jumps therefore she can't be like a Gumby. Now Sasha can probably lift her leg up into a Biellman position but it seems that she doesn't do them because of her back. However Sasha isn't that steady on her edges during her spiral (her error in the SP) that perhaps she really can't hold a Biellman position in a spiral because she might fall on her face.
I'm not a fan of Irina's skating at all, but I recognize the difficulty she is showing when doing that Biellman position. There is a lot of risk and she is showing good edges. Maybe it is monotonous, but skating has limited positions anyway. I would rather see Irina in a Biellman position than in that ugly spiral position that she used to do. It doesn't do a darn thing for her and there's nothing she can do with her body to make it look better. Why not dock Michelle for using the same trademark inside outside spiral? She does it in every program and it's not as if she varies it. Why isn't that considered overused? And what about Sasha's split positions : I spin, spiral, Charlotte, split jump. Doesn't it get monotonous that all Sasha does are split positions in a program? We already get that she can do a split.
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2003
Soogar, I think Sasha's split position isn't a problem because she uses variations of it that create diffrent looks. A split jump and a charlotte are both split positions, but they do look different. Michelle's inside-outside spiral isn't the same thing either, because she only does it once in a program not over and over again. My only problem with Irina's billeman's (or skating really, cause I quite like her) is that they look messy and to keep seeing that repeatedly over four minutes is unpleasant. I wonder if a catch foot position on an inside-outside edge would be worth. I know it's not as difficult but, coupled with another spiral or two wouldn't it still be worth a level 3 because of the edges?
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Soogar - I agree with your take on esthetics. Certainly a well balletic split in the air (not the russian style) as well as stylized jumps are much more pleasing to the eye. However, we live in a world of messy Bielmans and multiple rotation-in-the-air jumps with the object of gold in international competitions.
It does not matter how pleasing they are to the eye until they are compared with those of a competitor. However well a skating trick is performed, it is less important than the executed trick. A Saute de Basque (sp) in ballet must be performed exactly by every dancer unless it is used for character.reasons. By the way, I've seen triple Saute de Basques because one gets speed in doing them. In all cases, the body, the arms, the legs, the toes positions are perfect (or should be). Not necessary in skating. Only the successful turns in the air are important.
Figure Skating, for me, does not enter the fine arts world. It is 90% Sport and 10% art. Imo, the GOEs are based on the 'wow' factor not the esthetic factor. The sport is about as finite as it can be with just so many tricks
The big difference between figure skating and dance is the blade . It's just not bendable as the foot is. However, the skating tricks are difficult - no question.
Joe
It does not matter how pleasing they are to the eye until they are compared with those of a competitor. However well a skating trick is performed, it is less important than the executed trick. A Saute de Basque (sp) in ballet must be performed exactly by every dancer unless it is used for character.reasons. By the way, I've seen triple Saute de Basques because one gets speed in doing them. In all cases, the body, the arms, the legs, the toes positions are perfect (or should be). Not necessary in skating. Only the successful turns in the air are important.
Figure Skating, for me, does not enter the fine arts world. It is 90% Sport and 10% art. Imo, the GOEs are based on the 'wow' factor not the esthetic factor. The sport is about as finite as it can be with just so many tricks
The big difference between figure skating and dance is the blade . It's just not bendable as the foot is. However, the skating tricks are difficult - no question.
Joe
Back To The Topic
I re-watched Worlds this weekend and I am really not liking what I see with Michelle. She did 4 triples during her LP and no Loop. She fell on the Sal. So between now and next year she must be able to do 6-7 triples (including the loop I believe if she wants to win), do a triple-triple, a triple-double-double, make her spins faster, work on her layback and put it all in a well choreographed program that she doesn't water down by the end of the year. Which leads me to think that Michelle has too much catching up to do this year to be truly competitive for the gold at the Olympics next year. Unless Irina has a rough season coming up, it is not a good situation for Michelle. I also sense a lack of motivation, and I am not sure why because I believe it is one of the main reasons she has hung in there. I hope she can find some fire within to motivate herself to do the necessary work, or it's all over.
I re-watched Worlds this weekend and I am really not liking what I see with Michelle. She did 4 triples during her LP and no Loop. She fell on the Sal. So between now and next year she must be able to do 6-7 triples (including the loop I believe if she wants to win), do a triple-triple, a triple-double-double, make her spins faster, work on her layback and put it all in a well choreographed program that she doesn't water down by the end of the year. Which leads me to think that Michelle has too much catching up to do this year to be truly competitive for the gold at the Olympics next year. Unless Irina has a rough season coming up, it is not a good situation for Michelle. I also sense a lack of motivation, and I am not sure why because I believe it is one of the main reasons she has hung in there. I hope she can find some fire within to motivate herself to do the necessary work, or it's all over.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
Great posts! Having been gone for awhile, I'm trying to catch up in one swoop... Apologies to all if this echos others without the benefit of quotes...
I just read this entire post and have come to this conclusion: The best female skaters are all at a crossroads ~ if you base your opinions on this past Worlds...
My thoughts by skater:
1. MK will be fine next season. All of the things that people are jumping up & down about are things she's known for: jump consistency, will & motivation, positions, etc. As for understanding the njs... not so sure the point is studying the new system as much as competiting under it. Worlds pretty much sucked for her & she still did relativly well based on her performance & her program... Its tempting to say that based on that last showing, she's done. But we all did that last year after Irina's worlds and now her & her beilman are the considred da bomb. Unless something major happens over the summer ~ safe money is on MK to kick a** next season.
2. Speaking of Irinia's beillman: use it if you got it... Irina has never been a pretty skater; she's sloppy. But if she can win despite that with one trick, then why not? No use in whining about it. Work with what you have. My concern for Irina is her health. Will she be strong enough next season? Was it sheer will power this season or is she healthy enough to continue at the top of her game?
3. Sasha... well, she's Sasha. One can never tell if she's gonna get it together or not. Based on Worlds, I still can't say that she's got her skating together. Her best showing to date based on the fact that she didn't fall?!? Hmmm... not so sure that's such an accomplishment but she did earn her silver, so why hate?
4. Diva... I hope she gets it together because I absolutly love her skating.
5. Fumie... She is probably the best skater who never won a World championship.
6. Carolina... Hmmm. She's tough because like so many others, you gotta ask: is she the truth or did she have a Sarah moment at Worlds? What will the pressure be like for her? Where's her head at?
7. Miki... Lots of jumping skill but does her Worlds performance point to bad choices by her coaches (why Firebird when she had that beatiful guitar piece?) That Charlott was probably the saddest thing I've ever seen in skating. Was the fix in by the Japanese federation to boost up Diva? I rewatched Worlds just to answer the question: WTF??? Does ANYBODY have an answer?
8. Joannie... Again I ask ~ The truth or a couple of great skates in a weak field during the GP series?
This whole season was strange. Between the CoP and the feeling of being had by the ISU, I wonder what skating will look like next season. And even worse, will I still care? I understand that many feel that if you leave the sport because one skater retires, then you are an uber & not a true fan. But is that fair or true? I've loved skating for years but root for MK above all because she's The Truth (and you can't like everybody, because where's the fun in that?!?)
But between the drama & lack of motivation by the Powers that Be to make it fun to watch & support financially ~ I'm no longer sure if I want to be a fan of this crazy sport, outside of casual viewing on a rainy/snowy/Nationals Live! night. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Kwanford Wife
I just read this entire post and have come to this conclusion: The best female skaters are all at a crossroads ~ if you base your opinions on this past Worlds...
My thoughts by skater:
1. MK will be fine next season. All of the things that people are jumping up & down about are things she's known for: jump consistency, will & motivation, positions, etc. As for understanding the njs... not so sure the point is studying the new system as much as competiting under it. Worlds pretty much sucked for her & she still did relativly well based on her performance & her program... Its tempting to say that based on that last showing, she's done. But we all did that last year after Irina's worlds and now her & her beilman are the considred da bomb. Unless something major happens over the summer ~ safe money is on MK to kick a** next season.
2. Speaking of Irinia's beillman: use it if you got it... Irina has never been a pretty skater; she's sloppy. But if she can win despite that with one trick, then why not? No use in whining about it. Work with what you have. My concern for Irina is her health. Will she be strong enough next season? Was it sheer will power this season or is she healthy enough to continue at the top of her game?
3. Sasha... well, she's Sasha. One can never tell if she's gonna get it together or not. Based on Worlds, I still can't say that she's got her skating together. Her best showing to date based on the fact that she didn't fall?!? Hmmm... not so sure that's such an accomplishment but she did earn her silver, so why hate?
4. Diva... I hope she gets it together because I absolutly love her skating.
5. Fumie... She is probably the best skater who never won a World championship.
6. Carolina... Hmmm. She's tough because like so many others, you gotta ask: is she the truth or did she have a Sarah moment at Worlds? What will the pressure be like for her? Where's her head at?
7. Miki... Lots of jumping skill but does her Worlds performance point to bad choices by her coaches (why Firebird when she had that beatiful guitar piece?) That Charlott was probably the saddest thing I've ever seen in skating. Was the fix in by the Japanese federation to boost up Diva? I rewatched Worlds just to answer the question: WTF??? Does ANYBODY have an answer?
8. Joannie... Again I ask ~ The truth or a couple of great skates in a weak field during the GP series?
This whole season was strange. Between the CoP and the feeling of being had by the ISU, I wonder what skating will look like next season. And even worse, will I still care? I understand that many feel that if you leave the sport because one skater retires, then you are an uber & not a true fan. But is that fair or true? I've loved skating for years but root for MK above all because she's The Truth (and you can't like everybody, because where's the fun in that?!?)
But between the drama & lack of motivation by the Powers that Be to make it fun to watch & support financially ~ I'm no longer sure if I want to be a fan of this crazy sport, outside of casual viewing on a rainy/snowy/Nationals Live! night. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Kwanford Wife
I Hope You're Right
Kwanford Wife I hope you're right about Michelle, but her comments at the opening of her family's new skating rink did not reassure me. She still doesn't even seem to know if she is going to compete at the Olympics. She's still thinking about it?!?! She seems unfocused and now (according to the articles) she is going to train at the new rink and not at Ice Castles with Arutunian during the summer. None of this smacks of a major committment to a goal i.e. the Olympics. She may go for it, but I think her chances of winning are not great as things stand. Irina is one highly motivated skater right now. Her mother's health, perhaps her life, depend on her continued earnings and winnings. Besides which, Irina has always wanted to prove she was Michelle's equal and worthy of the gold in whatever competition. Michelle on the other hand has done nothing but win most of her competitve life and I wonder if it has gotten old and she doesn't "need" it any more. Irina has always been able to reinvent herself in terms of skills. Michelle has reinvented herself less frequently. She did once, when she went from jumping bean to Salome, and once, when she added the triple-triple combinations while with Frank (which she no longer does). I am also not convinced that Michelle would have scored higher than 3rd at Worlds WITH a clean program. On top of all this, I also think she is very much intimidated by the way CoP rewards skaters. None of this is good. My worst skating nightmare is to be listening to some Olympic t.v. commentator discuss why Michelle was so unprepared for the Olympics and or how sad it is to see her decline. As a Michelle fan, to say that I am worried is an understatement. I just hope she knows something I don't know.
Kwanford Wife I hope you're right about Michelle, but her comments at the opening of her family's new skating rink did not reassure me. She still doesn't even seem to know if she is going to compete at the Olympics. She's still thinking about it?!?! She seems unfocused and now (according to the articles) she is going to train at the new rink and not at Ice Castles with Arutunian during the summer. None of this smacks of a major committment to a goal i.e. the Olympics. She may go for it, but I think her chances of winning are not great as things stand. Irina is one highly motivated skater right now. Her mother's health, perhaps her life, depend on her continued earnings and winnings. Besides which, Irina has always wanted to prove she was Michelle's equal and worthy of the gold in whatever competition. Michelle on the other hand has done nothing but win most of her competitve life and I wonder if it has gotten old and she doesn't "need" it any more. Irina has always been able to reinvent herself in terms of skills. Michelle has reinvented herself less frequently. She did once, when she went from jumping bean to Salome, and once, when she added the triple-triple combinations while with Frank (which she no longer does). I am also not convinced that Michelle would have scored higher than 3rd at Worlds WITH a clean program. On top of all this, I also think she is very much intimidated by the way CoP rewards skaters. None of this is good. My worst skating nightmare is to be listening to some Olympic t.v. commentator discuss why Michelle was so unprepared for the Olympics and or how sad it is to see her decline. As a Michelle fan, to say that I am worried is an understatement. I just hope she knows something I don't know.
