Kwan Injured - Pulling out of Cambell's & Skate America... Life is NOT Fair

[mzheng]

I believe that this is one of the things that is holding the sport back. The most popular and successful sports do not tie themselves to the Olympic spectacle.

If I am not mistaken, the Olympic event that draws the biggest television audience world wide is the opening ceremonies. Bands playing, flags waving, people marching in their national uniforms.

The actual sporting events? Not so much interest there.

Mathman

Good point.

May be this is a question of chicken first or egger first. Since FS is not a popular sport, for general populations they don't even knew there are nationals and worlds (shame on me, I knew some of pro competetions and Olympics FS competetion back in beginning and mid 90s before I even knew there are US Nationals and Worlds.). But when Olympics they tune in to watch the big "attraction", so the FS orgnizers do whatever they could to promote sport in hope to catch some fans will follow the sport after Olympics. That's whay make the OGM in FS so important than any other OGM.

 

[Lucy25]

Double post

 

[Lucy25]

Now, I saw it from MKF that it made official in public. She signed new endorsement with Coca Cola a few weeks back......See what I mean in another thread that the new endorsements kept come in these days even without winning that much these days?

Is there anything more you can tell us about this? I hadn't heard about this at all. I wonder if it makes any difference to her endorsements if she is not able to skate because of injury. Maybe this is one reason (other than wanting to do it herself) why she attempted to skate through the pain last week, because so much is riding on her potential successes? I remember last year you explained that one reason she looked a bit tight at Nationals was because she was about to sign the East West endorsement.

 

[Piel]

What is Lupus?

RD check your PMs.

 

[Piel]

As for the popularity of different sports, I think accessibility has a lot to do with it. Every little town in America has a football, baseball, and basketball team of some kind even if it's just midget league/little league/or biddy. People understand these sports. Heck, even die hard fans of FS have trouble understanding the judging. As for the Olympics IMO the general public is most concerned with the medal count of their country. After that they like an opening and closing ceremony that they can make some sense of.....nothing too artsy with a little pyrotechnics thrown in usually does it.

 

[R.D.]

Piel- thanks for the PM.

MY TAKE

FS is one of those that requires an intense amount of money to participate in. My personal belief is that this enables the community to be rather "cliquish" (exclusive). On the other hand, anyone can pick up a football, basketball, soccer ball, baseball bat, or even a hockey stick, get some friends together, and have a game. After all, team sports offer a bonding experience.

Any exclusivity is going to hurt. The exception to this might be golf, but there are golf courses everywhere, and driving ranges offering ball baskets for $5.

 

[attyfan]

Now, I saw it from MKF that it made official in public. She signed new endorsement with Coca Cola a few weeks back......See what I mean in another thread that the new endorsements kept come in these days even without winning that much these days?

mzheng -- I hate to contradict you, but according to this thread, Michelle does NOT have an endorsement deal with Coca-Cola. She was merely photographed in the "Diet Coke" lounge at an Emmy party. Here is the link, and, if it works, the thread will give another link to the photos:

http://p216.ezboard.com/fmichellekw...sageRange?topicID=25197.topic&start=1&stop=20

 

[attyfan]

...
Yes- Irina, now we're talking about a serious competitor. It's incredible the way she was able to bounce back and not let her sickness end her career (or even her life in extreme case). Not only has she been able to bounce back, but she's now BETTER THAN EVER. Now that's quite an inspiring story.

Kwan is a great competitor too, but she has indirectly allowed her constant winning to get to her head and now she's stagnating. Not everyone can stay great forever, but maybe a poster here is right when he/she says that Kwan's body can't take any more "pounding". Maybe we have seen the best from her, and it's been a good 11 years for her and her fans..

Does anyone know if the fact that Michelle commenced her senior world career at the age of 13 and a half, whereas Irina was fifteen or sixteen when she made her senor worlds debut would make a difference? I would think that it would -- that it would be a greater strain on Michelle's body to land the same jumps as Irina, simply because Michelle took more strain at a younger age -- and was weakened accordingly.

 

[rjulie510]

I agree with attyfan than the fact Michelle came out on Senior elite seen at such a young age probably doesn't help. She's been doing these triple jumps for over a decade now, and that's got to take a toll on her body. Besides toe injury on 98, Michelle never had a big injury, so therefore unlike many of her competitors, she never had time to rest her body and regroup. She's been at Nationals and Worlds for how many years now? Even though she has been careful not to push her body beyond its limit, she can only skate Senior international elite level for so long.

 

[Vash01]

What is Lupus?

Yes- Irina, now we're talking about a serious competitor. It's incredible the way she was able to bounce back and not let her sickness end her career (or even her life in extreme case). Not only has she been able to bounce back, but she's now BETTER THAN EVER. Now that's quite an inspiring story.

Kwan is a great competitor too, but she has indirectly allowed her constant winning to get to her head and now she's stagnating. Not everyone can stay great forever, but maybe a poster here is right when he/she says that Kwan's body can't take any more "pounding". Maybe we have seen the best from her, and it's been a good 11 years for her and her fans.

Now, it would be nice to see if kwan can keep up with the young ones and challenge for an Olympic medal, but I don't know- this injury of hers is very telling. I hope she can recover and get her confidence back and get out there again. This would be a season to remember if everyone brings their A-game to the OLYs.

I don't think the 5 world victories have gone to Kwan's head, as you put it. She has been careful not to push herself too hard, and saving herself for what is most important to her. I think it shows wisdom and strategy. My main concern is she is not as young as she used to be and it may take her a little longer to heal. I am glad that she is being cautious.

Irina's story is very inspiring. No argument there.

Vash

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think Red Dog has seen Kwan roaming around after each of the 5 titles with a big head. Red Dog knows how Kwan's conceit has now gotten the best of her after so many years of skating. Red Dog knows all about Kwan and that the injury has just made her stagnating. Red Dog knows!

Joe

 

[antmanb]

If you were I Kwan fan I doubt that you would have a problem with the fair factor. Of course looking at the big picture none of what happens to these skater means a whole lot, does it? But, if you are a fan of a skater and have been looking forward to them participating in an event anything that prevents that is a disappointment. It's all a matter of degree as to what is fair or unfair depending on how invested you are in skating and the skaters.

Well said Piel - you summed up what i was feeling perfectly!:agree:

Ant

 

[antmanb]

PS. Brad, you don't like golf? Potbellied men hitting a little ball quite a long ways and eventually knocking it into a little hole in the ground?

 

[antmanb]

Honestly? I think what they need to do is the complete reverse--cut the kids out. Up the age limits higher, and ban the bone-jarring jumps for younger skaters. Make senior level an even higher age absolute. The reason that they're getting injured is not that they're getting old, which is patently absurd when you're talking about athletes in their twenties--it's that at the most formative stages of growth, the skaters, ESPECIALLY the females, were pounding themselves with impacts their skeletons simply aren't ready to handle. Thirteen-year-olds practicing triples jumps for hours a day? When, hello, the epipheses of their long bones aren't even fused?

Figure skating (and gymnastics) need to start being sports for ADULTS, like the majority of other Olympic sports. (The 'young' atheletes in most other sports are college-age!) Make the age limit 17 at least, and send the kids back to the minors until they're physically mature.

I'd also argue to deemphasize the jumps for the women. There's nothing entertaining or artistic about watching some poor girl who's barely pubescent do permanent damage to her joints and back trying to do bigger and bigger jumps more and more often. Right now ice dance (and, sometimes, maybe, pairs, though that's increasingly becoming 'toss the dwarf') and men's have skaters who look like they've gotten past the middle-school stage, while ladies' is becoming increasingly bereft of actual ladies. So what if men are doing quads? I hate to be the one to break this to skating, but "women be different than men." Physically, women are not the same as men and should not be killing themselves trying.

I hope Michelle Kwan recovers and is able to skate in the CoC and that she makes a comeback at the Olympics. I'm not a Kwan uberfan (as I'm not overly interested in women's skating for reasons related to complaints above) but she's one of the ladies I do enjoy watching.

While i totally agree with the trying to get these kids to stop hurting themselves from such an early age there is never a good solution. Even if you upped the Senior compeitive age to 17/18 and mandated that a double axel is the hardest jump you are allowed to attempt pre seniors, you can't police what these kids do in their practice rinks at home. It won't stop an 11 year old jumping bean from getting all of his/her triples by the time s/he is 12 and keep practising them so that they are toally solid and getting the quads by the time they are old enough to compete in seniors.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I duno. But I doubt it. She has the contract which requires she competes more......The girl does love to compete sometimes even agains the wishes from ppl surrounding her.

Contract?? What contract could she have insisting that competes more?

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Is there anything more you can tell us about this? I hadn't heard about this at all. I wonder if it makes any difference to her endorsements if she is not able to skate because of injury. Maybe this is one reason (other than wanting to do it herself) why she attempted to skate through the pain last week, because so much is riding on her potential successes? I remember last year you explained that one reason she looked a bit tight at Nationals was because she was about to sign the East West endorsement.

I would have thought any contract with an athlete that requires them to compete (and i'm dubious that a endorsement deal would include such a clause) would include a force majeure clause and injury would be a force majeure event. Someone with the clout of Kwan would have a fair amount of bargaining power to be able to negotiate such a contract so i would have thought she's suitably covered.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Does anyone know if the fact that Michelle commenced her senior world career at the age of 13 and a half, whereas Irina was fifteen or sixteen when she made her senor worlds debut would make a difference? I would think that it would -- that it would be a greater strain on Michelle's body to land the same jumps as Irina, simply because Michelle took more strain at a younger age -- and was weakened accordingly.

I thought Michelle and Irina started out in seniors only one year apart and that Irina is only a few months older than Michelle so its pretty much the same difference given that they both comepted in juniors with a full arsenal of triples? Just checked the databases and Michelle's first worlds was Japan 1994 and Irina's was Birmingham 1995 - i believe they first competed against each other in seniors at a SA in the 04/95 season? So i think its a pretty moot point.

There are a million things you could say one way or the other over the skaters - Irina's body's had more stress because she does more loops as the back end of combination, she's had more stress because she tends to land at a standstill which impacts your knee and hip much more than if you land with a good flow and speed on the landing, she jumps higher ergo more pounding etc etc...I think its ridiculous to try and come up with reasons as to why someone's body holds out better than someone else's. Someone's body either lasts or it doesn't. Both Michelle and Irina are very LUCKY to have survived as long as they have with comparatively small injuries (Irina's health notwithstanding). A large part of this will likely be through great training habbits - let's face it they both got great basics training from their coaches, they both stuck with them for a long time (Irina never changed). But the other part of it is just genetics and body types.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I think Red Dog has seen Kwan roaming around after each of the 5 titles with a big head. Red Dog knows how Kwan's conceit has now gotten the best of her after so many years of skating. Red Dog knows all about Kwan and that the injury has just made her stagnating. Red Dog knows!

Joe

Well said Joe!!!!!!!!!!!

Ant

 

[attyfan]

I thought Michelle and Irina started out in seniors only one year apart and that Irina is only a few months older than Michelle so its pretty much the same difference given that they both comepted in juniors with a full arsenal of triples? ....

Ant

First, Irina is about a year and a half older than Michelle. Second and IMO more important, is that the year and a half at issue (Michelle -- 13 1/2; Irina -- 15) just so happens to be around the time when girls go through puberty. Finally, when Michelle and Irina were competing at juniors, they weren't expected to do a 3 lutz/2 toe combination in the SP. When the jumps (and the pressure) skyrocketed as they went into seniors, Michelle was taking the pressure on the bones and muscle of a girl, whereas Irina was taking it on the bones and muscle of a woman.

 

[antmanb]

First, Irina is about a year and a half older than Michelle. Second and IMO more important, is that the year and a half at issue (Michelle -- 13 1/2; Irina -- 15) just so happens to be around the time when girls go through puberty. Finally, when Michelle and Irina were competing at juniors, they weren't expected to do a 3 lutz/2 toe combination in the SP. When the jumps (and the pressure) skyrocketed as they went into seniors, Michelle was taking the pressure on the bones and muscle of a girl, whereas Irina was taking it on the bones and muscle of a woman.

But the point of my post (an earlier one) is that they didn't wake up at age X and start landing triple lutzes - they were training the same triple jumps from the same ages and i'm also pretty sure that they both were using triple lutzes in their junior programs. Also the age at which girls go through puberty would be a fair point but since we're talking two specific girls when did Kwan and Slutskaya actually go through puberty? To me it seems that Kwan came back after 1995 worlds (so the start of the 95/96 season) with a more womanly shape and having filled out since the previous year but not a huge amount and has pretty much remained the same type of shape (muscle gain notwithstanding), Irina to me seemed to go through puberty later since her growth and weight issues all came about around the 1998 season so i'd say Slutskaya was a later developer than Kwan and spend more time skating seniors program "pre" puberty than Kwan.

Anthony