mememe said:
I haven't followed Michelle-Sasha closely enough to be able to answer this myself, but ... has there ever been a situation where a "clean" Michelle beat a "clean" Sasha? And if so, has it ever happened under the rules of today, with CoP? I can't recall ever hearing of a time the two of them both went clean in two programs at the same competition.
I think talk of an asterisk by anyone's name for any championship they won is ludicrous. You compete against the field that shows up, under the judging system that is in place at the time. If you win, you're champion -- that's the end of it. I don't put an asterisk by any of Michelle's nine national titles and five world title, figuring it might have been different if so-and-so had been there, or such-and-such judging system had been in place. She won them, she's champion of those years. Ditto for this year -- whoever wins at nationals is champion, no asterisk needed. Whoever wins at Olympics is champion, whether Michelle or Mao or Irina or Sasha or Alyssa or Carolina or Silvia or whoever else is there or not.
I cant recall a competition, other than perhaps the 2002 U.S Nationals(which Michelle won handily)where both Michelle and Sasha skated cleanly. In fact very rarely are there competitions between two Champions were both skate a clean short and clean long(even if we exclude the qualifying round, assuming both skaters are near the very top after it).
Yagudin vs Plushenko-Only competition both skated cleanly was the 98 Europeans, when both were still in their developing stages, especially Plushenko. At the 2002 GP final Plushenko actualy could be considered to have had a clean competition, if you discount his three turn in the middle of his quad-triple-double combo as not being a mistake; Yagudin actually had two mistakes in his final long, 2 in his first long, and 1 in his short, but still won the final long in a split to win.
Kwan vs Slutskaya-At the 96 GP final Slutskaya actually had a clean short and clean long, while Kwan fell on her triple toe in the short, came out of her second triple lutz halfway through, and Kwan still won handily with straight 1st place votes in the long, and being only 4th in the short to Slutskaya's 3rd. I should point out Kwan, even with missing her second triple lutz in the long, still had completed 6 triples, including a triple-triple, and a triple lutz, and atleast 1 of each triple cleanly; while Slutskaya only attempted 6 triples, 1 triple lutz, repeated a triple salchow twice, and no triple-triples, and the two tied on tech. marks with a 5.7, 5. 5.8s, and a 5.9 each, with Kwan crushing Slutskaya on presentation marks. I cant recall any other competition where both skated two clean programs, or where one was clean and lost to the other. At the 2002 Worlds both had clean longs and Slutskaya won a 6-3 split, but Kwan had a mistake in the short, and could not have won even had she won the long anyway.
Berezhnaya/Sikharldidze vs Sale/Pelletier-At the 2001 Worlds Berezhnaya/
Sikharlidze actually skated a clean short and long, and still lost to Sale/Pelletier when Jamie missed a side-by-side jump, the triple toe in the short, the double axel in the long. At the 2001 GP final in the first two programs, Jamie missed a side-by-side in both, stepping out of her triple toe in the short, and doubling her triple toe in the first long, and still beat Berezhnaya/Sikharlidze in this hypothetical 1 short/1 long combined format even though Berezhnaya/
Sikharlidze were again clean in both. In this event the deciding program was an additional long in the "super final" where both had mistakes though.
Orser vs Boitano-I cant remember a single event both were totally clean in the final long, let alone for both a short and long. Even at the 88 Olympics, Orser had some mistakes in the final long-doubling her second triple axel, stepping out of his triple flip. At Skate Canada that year both had some minor stumbles. Boitano had alot of mistakes in the final long at the 87 Worlds. Orser had a disaester at the 86 Worlds, and alot of mistakes at 86 NHK. Boitano had some mistakes at the 85 Worlds and came 3rd, Orser was pretty clean but flat and still lost easily to red-hot and erratic Fadeev.
Yamaguchi vs Ito-Looking only at amateur meetings, even if one was to exclude from their minds the compulsory figures of 89-90, and only look at the shorts and longs, neither have ever had a competition where both were clean together. In fact the only time I even remember both having a clean short was the 1990 Worlds. Never have both had a clean long in the same competition.
Pro competitions between them were better in 94-95, there were actually a couple both were clean at, a refreshing change.
Kwan vs Lipinski-It is interesting while the perception was always a clean Lipinski had no chance against a clean Kwan, and I agree to a large extent, and even a flawed Kwan had a reasonable chance to beat a clean Lipinski, and again I concur to a point; the actual fact is the only competition both were clean in, the 98 Olympics, Lipinski was picked the winner. Every other competion 1 or the other had mistakes, and neither have beaten the other skating cleanly with mistakes.
Competions between the big guns is rarely mistake free. You have only 1 time between Plushenko-Yagudin, and it was before their 99-2002 dominating rivalry started. None between Kwan-Slutskaya. None between Sale/
Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikharlidze. Only 1 time between Kwan-Lipinski.
None between Yamguchi-Ito, nor any between Orser-Boitano.
