Ladies - Free Program - Comments

[mzheng]

Sasha has gained some confidence within a new system that won't murder her for being inconsistant.

Your wording is so funny. I predicted this long time ago even when some diehard Sasha fans (at FSU) said she need to skate clean to win. Nop under CoP you don't have to, as long as you have the ability to make up points in other eareas.

 

[mzheng]

I didn't pick Michelle though...

Yeah, in your book MK off the podium is not enough. She should be nocked to the bottom of competetion. Anyone but Michelle.

Oh well, let ant/haters have the field day. Just don't jinx your favorate.

 

[rain]

Having now seen the competition, a few comments:

Rochette's skate wasn't actually as horrible as I feared. Yes, three falls - definitely not good, but she fought through to the end, tried everything and never let the performance go.

Was absolutely thrilled by Sasha Cohen. She is one of my favorite skaters and I'm so happy to see her back and stronger than ever. No falls, and I've never seen her fight so hard to hang onto everything. A year ago she would have sat down on some of those not-so-perfect landings. Gorgeous and varied spins, breathtaking spiral - this was the highlight for me. I read someone saying she looked unhappy on the podium - likening her expression to Bonaly - totally unfounded comment, IMO. I saw the medal ceremony and she looked really happy coming onto the ice for her bow smiling and laughing with Slutskaya, congradulating her with a big hug before stepping on the podium. I thought she looked very gracious and genuinely thrilled to have won her silver.

Very happy for Irina Slutskaya and a well-deserved free skate win. Great speed and beautiful jumps. I admit I'm not the biggest fan of her style, finding her still quite awkward and lacking in grace, but I do appreciate the power, which she had in spades today. Not to take away from her win, but I'm not a fan at all of her choreography. I really don't understand how she scores so high in this component. It was empty between the elements. It was absolutely wonderful to see her genuine joy at winning, however.

Kwan was definitely off. Hope she ditches Bolero and goes back to the drawing board. I thought her fourth place finish so close to third was actually quite generous. She needs to find the spark, and some moves that will set her apart. Right now with her current repertoire she is blending into the woodwork.

Carolina Kostner was wonderful. The back half of her program wasn't as strong, but this girl has all the qualities to become a world champion. Grace, speed, jumps, it's all there. Just needs some refinement.

Miki Ando might be able to jump, but that's all she excels at thus far. I thought it was made painfully obvious that her presentation is sadly lacking, with her skating amongst the final lot. Her spirals and spins are shockingly bad. And she needs desperately to listen to, and feel something about her music.

Shizuka Arakawa had a disappointing performance. I just thought it looked like she lacked any desire to be competing. It wasn't that she wasn't enjoying skating, she just didn't have any fire to move up, and or win. I think turning pro would make her happy at this point. Still, top marks for best makeover of the championships (just a little shallow note).

Fumie Suguri looked quite good. Nice speed and better than I've seen her jump in a while. She really pulls off the pants look too. I hope she sticks around a little longer.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Your wording is so funny. I predicted this long time ago even when some diehard Sasha fans (at FSU) said she need to skate clean to win. Nop under CoP you don't have to, as long as you have the ability to make up points in other eareas.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I figured that this thread would be 20 pages long by now. I guess all the so-called uber fans are in seculsion after the perfomances of some skaters at Worlds.

No such luck... we're all still here... You REALLY like that rofl smilies don't you?

Kwanford Wife

 

[Mathman]

Well, I am looking at the performances of all the top ladies, and I hope that someone can point out some "choreography" in anyone's program, starting with Irina's.

The CoP was supposed to encourage more interesting transitions, entrances into jumps, etc. Instead what I saw was a gold metal tour de force from Irina with that went, huge beautiful jump (stroke stroke stroke) huge beautiful jump (stroke stroke skoke), with a couple of Bielmann positions thrown in.

What did I miss?

Mathman

 

[jan]

I agree with you Matham! It's weird that the men were judged on what the new system was supposed to be all about . Chengjiang Ll got killed on the PCS where as Irena did not! There appears to a huge difference in the way the mens and ladies events were judged.
I think they will have to define skating skills, interpretation and transitions etc. much better for the judges before next year. There is still too much room for manipulating the PCs.
P.S. On another note Karolina Kostner's speed and fluid transitions were amazing yet they were not reflected in her score to the extent that they should have been. I found it refreshing to watch her fly into the jumps!

 

[Mathman]

P.S. On another note Karolina Kostner's speed and fluid transitions were amazing yet they were not reflected in her score to the extent that they should have been. I found it refreshing to watch her fly into the jumps!

Me, too. As much as I wanted Michelle to make the podium, I have to say that I enjoyed Carolina's programs the most, both the short and the long.

MM

 

[RealtorGal]

Carolina's speed is really terrific. Also, the way she flies into her jumps is just breathtaking. She just needs some more maturity to be truly amazing.

 

[Jaana]

I think Kwan was shown she can no longer rest on her laurels and expect to be on the podium. She hasn't upped the ante in years (much to my disappointment - she's one of my fav skaters) and finally it's coming back to bite her.

Unfortunately I don´t think that Kwan was shown anything... She was not on podium because of that not successful QR skating. In freeskate Kwan was definetely held up e.g. in transitions and choreography. Compared e.g. to Kostner Kwan got undeserved scores. Unfortunately CoP has turned into the old 6,0 system where skaters with reputation are being held up by the judges. Of course there was also lots of exellence in Kwan´s freeskate, but it was held up in certain areas, and that is not how it should be in these days with the new rules.

 

[ChiSk8Fan]

The judging....

....was fair in the long program. Irina was definitely the best, Sasha had errors but no falls, Michelle fell and two footed things, and Carolina doubled and made mistakes. They were ranked 1, 2, 3 and 4 correctly IMHO.

I feel that since the "New Judging System", or NJS, uses the same judges as before, it will become analogous to the 6.0 system, only with finer details, and subtle variations. Let's try this with these marks and see.

Firstly, let's, for mathematical simplicity, expand the 6.0 system to around 6.5. Divide the TCS and PCS by 10, and you have marks that come close to the old system. Irina in the 6.4 range, Sasha in the 6.2 range and Michelle in the 5.5 range for technical and 6.1 range for presentation.

It's the same old judges with a new way to explain the old "base mark" with even more wiggle room and new seKrecy. It's the 6.0 system with smoke, mirrors and a carnival of computer screens.

But in either system, the goal is to reward the best skater in the 3 phases taken together, and that Irina did the best, especially in the QR and Free. She was the fastest, most energetic, did her triple-triple and Bielmann's and won.

But this was not better skating than we saw nearly 5 years ago as an overall package and competition. Not too many will be pulling this one out ten years from now to watch as magical, like 1991 or 1996 or 2001 or many others. It ranks as low as 1992 in terms of poor quality at Worlds for the Ladies (Kerrigan the Silver with a terrible performance, and Chen Lu a Bronze with errors and not too many clean numbers at all).

I guess the skaters must adapt to the new criteria to gain the overall placements they desire, just like they did to get used to doing all the different triples in programs from 1991 onward. You need nearly all the triples, combinations, Level 2 and 3 spins and Level 3 spirals and Level 2 footwork. You need to skate with speed and energy with turns and steps to gain power and link segments of your skating (and not plain crossovers, which are to be kept at a minimum). Creative positions and flexibility are very helpful.

But in essence, the same old judges are using a highly modified version of the same old 6.0 system, and that is very disappointing.

 

[Rgirl]

Now that I've finally stopped crying for Irina's LP performance and win (tears of happiness for her), I can read people's remarks and hopefully my own typing.

First of all, I thought the final results for the ladies were fair and accurate, which is what any judging system is supposed to do. Seems to me that the ladies skated programs mostly based on the 6.0 system so what choice did the judges have but to judge what they saw, except mark down the component score for choreography for everyone who barely had any. I've only seen the average scores for CHOR for each skater and the judges didn't seem to reward the skaters with good or much choreography over those who didn't. I may be wrong in terms of the way the COP is supposed to be interpreted, but I've always felt that the choreography of a program isn't separate from the elements or "tricks," i.e., jumps, spins, spirals, footwork. It's the way everything goes together as much as having interesting in-betweens.

For example, in Kostner's LP, she had three separate combo spins near the middle of her program. To me that's part of the choreography, choosing to put the combo spins in sequence like that. However, clearly the men, at least those at the top, chose to use the COP to put less emphasis on jumps and more emphasis on what I'll call "in-betweeen choreography." Several of the top men also chose to use unique and interesting music, particularly Buttle, Lambiel, and Weir. The women, for the most part, used classic skating music.

However, with the exponentially rising injury rate for the men, who have been in the quad era since 1998, there was a lot more to lose by staying with the "more quads is the way to win" approach, i.e., more injuries, shorter competitive careers, vs. more to gain by putting more emphasis on choreography as well as spins and FW rather than trying to increase the number of quads. A quad combo was still important to win the gold, but the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place finishers each won without one. The ladies, OTOH, have never had an eight-year run of the top five or 10 needing a two 3/3 LP in order to win and thus have not suffered the physical consequences of such. Therefore, it makes sense to me that the women, having learned the training methods from the men necessary to consistently do different kinds of 3/3s, would go there first rather than risk their first COP Worlds on $20,000 worth of choreography.

I think when the women have had their "two 3/3s per LP" era; start suffering the kinds of chronic injuries we're seeing in men such as Plushenko; and start experiencing the high risk of making your LP or SP dependent on landing two clean 3/3 combos, i.e.,, fall on one or both and you lose gobs of points, then we'll start to see the women start going in the direction the men did this year.

Back to what we actually saw the ladies do:
--I fell in love with Irina as a skater from the moment I first saw her skate at Euros to that awful Broadway tune medley as a tiny 16-year-old with that tacky ostrich feather "trim" (it was more like the entire sleeve, lol) on her sleeves. She was bow-legged with feet that wouldn't point, more a bundle of energy than what we think of as an elite ladies singles skater. But as we've seen over the years, she's rarely been without a smile on her face and as I think Terry Gannon said "There's not an insincere bone in her body." But what I loved most, always, was her skating: The power, the race-car speed, the 45-degree angle to the ice on her edges, spins with killer torque, her ability to do both aggressively athletic and gentle romantic programs, and her love of the sport that came through it all. I never thought I'd see her happier to win World gold than she was in '02, but needing the prize money to pay for her mother's kidney transplant and winning it, not to mention her own very serious health problems. I know it's "movie of the week" stuff, but it's real life. Plus it's the real life of someone whose skating I've enjoyed both on TV and live for almost a decade. Irina was the best skater throughout most of the competition, though I agree that her SP scores were a bit of a gift. But even take away 2-3 points from her SP and she still would have won. I'm truly thrilled for Irina Slutskaya.
--Kudos to Sasha for doing three strong phases of the competition, executing her first seven-triple program in competition, and truly winning the silver rather than just getting it, if that makes sense. Obviously her jumps weren't all clean, but she didn't fall and she landed most of them beautifully. And though I hate to address these kinds of things, I'll second the observation that in no way did Cohen "pull a Bonaly" on the podium. On US TV we didn't see her skate out and greet Irina, we only saw Cohen and Kostner's faces for a bit while they played the Russian national anthem. Both Cohen and Kostner's experessions were what I'd call "respectfully neutral," which is what most silver and bronze medal winners have on their faces when the anthem of another country is being played.
--Congratulations to Kostner for overcoming her own inconsistency problems, living up to her own hype, and squeaking by a five-time World champion to win the bronze. She has many lovely qualities and I hope this means that in the little figure skating coverage we get in the US that now we'll get to see more of her. Also, interesting that her programs had the best choreography, IMO, and that one of the choreographers was Kurt Browning, who choreographed one of my all-time favorite programs for himself, the pro program "Mercutio," not to mention the many great SOI programs he choreographed for himself. Great choice, Carolina!
--Most people have commented on Michelle's performances and finish at these Worlds and what it all means. I'll try not to repeat them. The only comment I have is that many people believe that you never learn from your sucesses, only from your failures. If Michelle needed to learn something, best to do it before the Olympics with a skin-of-her-teeth loss to someone like Kostner.

Comments on a few other skaters:
--Ando looked out of shape and mentally unfocused to me. I enjoyed her skating last year and wasn't bothered by its unfinished look because she was fresh out of Jr. Worlds. But she hasn't seemed to improve one iota in any department and seems to have backslid some. It looks like a case of the puberty witches casting an evil spell. But I agree with whoever suggested she train with Tarasova. If she can handle it mentally and emotionally, it could do her wonders.
--Shizuka--poor thing! I'm not at all surprised that she never felt comfortable in the role of World Champion. She was never even a contender. She was Japanese champion for two or three years (not sure), then didn't even make it to Worlds for five years, and within a year or two of returning to Worlds is champion. Even for the most determined skater, that's a tough set of circumstances to overcome.

Those are the only ladies we saw on US TV. With all those little snippets of "our trip to Russia" ESPN could have squeezed in another LP in each discipline. I've SEEN Red Square, for cryin' out loud! I've only seen Susanna Poykio skate once! Instead of sending e-mails about the sky-cam (they must have spent $75 to $100 grand on the thing--they're keeping it) or complaining about the silly comments about who Brian Joubert is or is not dating, e-mail ESPN about showing MORE SKATERS! Tell them (nicely) to study the CBC's coverage.

One last thing about the "Japanese triple threat." An area all the current Japanese ladies have a problem with is consistency. Both Shizza and Fumie have improved tremendously in every area of their skating (for Fumie, I think Lori Nichol has been just the right person) except consistency. Takeshi Honda, with all his talent, has had the same problem year after year. This is not a criticism and obviously JMO, but I think that in order for the Japanese to be a force in individual sports such as figure skating that perhaps something in their cultural mindset needs to be addressed by sports psychologists. IMO, the Japanese skaters are too good to not be winning more World medals.

I thought this was a great, though bumpy Worlds. But anytime you introduce a new judging system to replace a decades old one, bumps are going to be the order of the day. I'm happy with all the medalists--okay, I like Weir better than Lysacek but Weir was both injured and not feeling well and lost by a very small margin--and at least for me, I think it will be interesting 10 years from now to look back and think, "Remember the first Worlds they used the COP?"

Rgirl

 

[Eeyora]

You summed it up best Rgirl. Hoewever in ten yaers I will still be sad about this Worlds. Not just as a Kwan fan but as a Plushenko fan, Shen and Zhao fan and a Johnny Weir fan.

 

[millie]

How did Sasha pull a Bonaly? Sasha skated onto the ice after Irina, went to the podium and shook hands with Irina and smiled, said a few words to each other, and then got on the podium. Kostner did the same. When they were on the podium they were all smiling. What did you what her to do, jump up and down on the podium and say hahahaha, I beat Michelle. I think that she represented the U.S. very well.

 

[tannisming]

It was a fantastic Worlds. Irena was so fantastic. Her jumps were so high. I love her Beilman, don't care what her detractors say. I was so proud of Sasha. She was so beautiful. Carolina is great. Fast and a good jumper. WHAT A NIGHT!

 

[soogar]

Thank you for the news that Shizuka is going to stay in it for another year. I hope she can regroup and skate great at the Olympics.

Why can't Miki stay on her feet during the footwork? It doesn't seem as though puberty is affecting her jumps at all b/c she was pretty developed last year and when she competed in juniors. But watching Miki bobble on a simple spiral and lose her place in the footwork is quite frustrating. She has deep knees and can generate a lot of speed and she's been skating for years. I think she has a lot of competitive fire and I hope she will work on what she needs to win.

 

[Doggygirl]

I'm left wondering too??????

How did Sasha pull a Bonaly? Sasha skated onto the ice after Irina, went to the podium and shook hands with Irina and smiled, said a few words to each other, and then got on the podium. Kostner did the same. When they were on the podium they were all smiling. What did you what her to do, jump up and down on the podium and say hahahaha, I beat Michelle. I think that she represented the U.S. very well.

I saw the entire medals ceremony via the Russian feed. What exactly did Sasha do that was "pulling a Bonaly?" If there was something she did wrong, I sure didn't see it. She wasn't even chewing gum so far as I could tell.

DG

 

[Kwanford Wife]

....was fair in the long program. Irina was definitely the best, Sasha had errors but no falls, Michelle fell and two footed things, and Carolina doubled and made mistakes. They were ranked 1, 2, 3 and 4 correctly IMHO.

I feel that since the "New Judging System", or NJS, uses the same judges as before, it will become analogous to the 6.0 system, only with finer details, and subtle variations. Let's try this with these marks and see.

Firstly, let's, for mathematical simplicity, expand the 6.0 system to around 6.5. Divide the TCS and PCS by 10, and you have marks that come close to the old system. Irina in the 6.4 range, Sasha in the 6.2 range and Michelle in the 5.5 range for technical and 6.1 range for presentation.

It's the same old judges with a new way to explain the old "base mark" with even more wiggle room and new seKrecy. It's the 6.0 system with smoke, mirrors and a carnival of computer screens.

But in either system, the goal is to reward the best skater in the 3 phases taken together, and that Irina did the best, especially in the QR and Free. She was the fastest, most energetic, did her triple-triple and Bielmann's and won.

But this was not better skating than we saw nearly 5 years ago as an overall package and competition. Not too many will be pulling this one out ten years from now to watch as magical, like 1991 or 1996 or 2001 or many others. It ranks as low as 1992 in terms of poor quality at Worlds for the Ladies (Kerrigan the Silver with a terrible performance, and Chen Lu a Bronze with errors and not too many clean numbers at all).

I guess the skaters must adapt to the new criteria to gain the overall placements they desire, just like they did to get used to doing all the different triples in programs from 1991 onward. You need nearly all the triples, combinations, Level 2 and 3 spins and Level 3 spirals and Level 2 footwork. You need to skate with speed and energy with turns and steps to gain power and link segments of your skating (and not plain crossovers, which are to be kept at a minimum). Creative positions and flexibility are very helpful.

But in essence, the same old judges are using a highly modified version of the same old 6.0 system, and that is very disappointing.

ita

 

[purplecat]

If Sasha were to "pull a Bonaly" she'd have to refuse to stand on the podium and rip off her silver medal around her neck! Some people want to rip Sasha apart so bad they'll try to find fault in anything she does! By the way, that goes for many skaters, not just Sasha...must be hard to be an elite figure skater and be perfect all the time!

As for free skate comments: I was very happy for Irina, great skate and so touching. I was very happy for Sasha, after the year she had, what a triumph for her! And though I'm not a big Carolina fan, I think she deserved her bronze medal, congrats to her.

 

[cianni]

Comments

Hats off to you Mathman, I saw Bielmam Bialman Bielman stroke stroke stroke 3 turns jump jump jump. Next doughnut spin with almost every spin. Falls, popping out of jumps. slips, and no choro at all. There wasnt a balanced program in the competition. The programs were all empty. The skaters are thinking not interpreting the music. It seems it all looked alike. COP was to fix the problems yet it has created even more. Its the 6.0 with the same judges doing the same judging. P..S Irinas FS was great just to cmb its not about her. No one did 3 clean programs.