- Joined
- Sep 24, 2003
soogar said:
I was thinking the same thing!
Ladies - Free Program - Comments
- Thread starter Kara Bear
- Start date
I was thinking the same thing!
As a huge MK fan, I was sad that she did so poorly in the QR but think she did an admirable job coming back..just wasn't enough. Michelle is such an icon that to me just having her in the competition automatically raises the level of competition. She has had an impressive run...sometimes it just doesn't all come together,. I was really proud of Sasha for skating a relatively clean program and she looked more relaxed coming out onto the ice than I have seen her in a long time. When she was being coached by TT, she always looked so stressed out. Good for her..she is a lovely skater. I was moved by Irina's FS...she looked so happy and while I have not always been a huge fan of her style, I think it's great that she is such a fighter. She has an awesome personality on the ice and I still love the Bielmann spins. Carolina was beautiful..light and airy. I really liked her choreography and I think she will be a force to contend with in the next few years if she can keep her jumping consistent.
I try not to look at personality issues, I just love to watch skating and other than MK's turn of events, I was really pleased with this year's performances overall.
I try not to look at personality issues, I just love to watch skating and other than MK's turn of events, I was really pleased with this year's performances overall.
Mathman said:
I love the COP but this PCS is driving me insane. What exactly are those component scores? Do they go up automatically when the elements are performed well? Ok fine, if we are talking about skating skills. But what about choreography and transitions and interpretation? There is no doubt about Irina's win which was truly well deserved but her PCS (all 8s except one or two 9s) are confusing to me. I still refuse to say held-up but I want to understand it. Can the judges come forward and explain to the skaters and coaches exactly what it is that Irina was better or so much better than Sasha or the rest in those components? I think it's necessary considering this system is still in its virgin state in major competitions.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2003
no, i don't think that irina'a PCS marks are superior to sasha's. quite the opposite. it was a case of having "the home crowd advantage."
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Just for fun, I just looked at the component scores for Irina and Sasha. Here is a summary:
Skating skills: Of the 11 judges, 9 votes for Irina, 1 for Sasha (this was thrown out in the trimmed mean), and 1 tie.
Transitions/Linking Footwork: 7 for Irina, none for Sasha, 4 ties.
Performance/Execution: all 11 for irina.
Choreography/Composition: 8 for Irina, 1 for Sasha (thrown out), 2 ties.
Interpretation: 6 for Irina, 1 for Sasha (thrown out), 4 ties.
So, yes, the overwhelming majority of the judges thought that Irina's transitions, choreography and interpretation, along with her skating skills and execution, were markedly better than Sasha's. If I were Sasha, I would have the same question that Apache does. What exactly does Sasha have to do to achieve the same level of artistry that Irina has?
Mathman
Skating skills: Of the 11 judges, 9 votes for Irina, 1 for Sasha (this was thrown out in the trimmed mean), and 1 tie.
Transitions/Linking Footwork: 7 for Irina, none for Sasha, 4 ties.
Performance/Execution: all 11 for irina.
Choreography/Composition: 8 for Irina, 1 for Sasha (thrown out), 2 ties.
Interpretation: 6 for Irina, 1 for Sasha (thrown out), 4 ties.
So, yes, the overwhelming majority of the judges thought that Irina's transitions, choreography and interpretation, along with her skating skills and execution, were markedly better than Sasha's. If I were Sasha, I would have the same question that Apache does. What exactly does Sasha have to do to achieve the same level of artistry that Irina has?
Mathman
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Make that 3 that believe that Irina was overmarked in the SP.
I don't feel that Irina's skating has such a high level of artistry that she just out skates everyone. I thought she was held up in the SP. Sasha spirals, spins, positions are far superior to Irina's. What does Sasha have to do to achieve the same level of artistry that Irina has? Well nothing. In my opinion her artistry is better then Irina's. Where Irina shines is in her jumping, she has much more power and height then Sasha.
Make that 4 - Irina was overmarked in the SP without a doubt. She had two major mistakes and it seemed to impact her marks not a bit. I do agree with her overall win, but do not see her presentation as being nearly as good as Sasha's or Michelle's. I will say she has improved tremendouly in this area. She is much smoother than she used to be. My biggest complaint is the way she lands her jumps. They are high, but her landing is what I call a "splat" with her arms jerking back, her back falling forward, and little holding of the edge. Johhny Weir is the best jump lander, I think. Up until World's his jumps were incredible, with a perfect arebesque position and a long gliding edge on the landing. So why does Irina not get any consequence for the way she lands her jumps?
Like I said, I think she deserved to win, but not by as much as she did. I am happy for her, like her, etc. I just don't care for her style - much prefer Michelle. Sasha I have really had a hard time with - attitude and keeping the attitude without really changing her deficient jumping technique. This worlds she seemed much more likeable on the ice and I enjoyed her more. Still has to figure out why her edges are so insecure when she lands. But a solid skate, much better, and truly amazing postions.
So Irina can jump, and Sasha has great line and positions, but neither, for me, has magic. Magic is the ability of the performer to transport the viewer - to draw us into the experience. That is Michelle. If she can work out the COP thing and still skate with magic, then she will do well. I love the magic, but I also like it when she wins.
Like I said, I think she deserved to win, but not by as much as she did. I am happy for her, like her, etc. I just don't care for her style - much prefer Michelle. Sasha I have really had a hard time with - attitude and keeping the attitude without really changing her deficient jumping technique. This worlds she seemed much more likeable on the ice and I enjoyed her more. Still has to figure out why her edges are so insecure when she lands. But a solid skate, much better, and truly amazing postions.
So Irina can jump, and Sasha has great line and positions, but neither, for me, has magic. Magic is the ability of the performer to transport the viewer - to draw us into the experience. That is Michelle. If she can work out the COP thing and still skate with magic, then she will do well. I love the magic, but I also like it when she wins.
Thanks for the breakdown of the judges' scores, Mathman. You live up to your name very well.Mathman said:
Here's my JMO answer to the question: What exactly does Sasha have to do to achieve the same level of artistry that Irina has?
Skate about five more years at the elite level, increase her speed and power by about 30%; increase her jump height, consistency, and ability to do difficult jump combos by about 40%; increase her charisma and connection with the audience by about 50%; increase her overall skating skills--edging, speed, control, amplitude in her BELOW the ankles skating, etc.--by about 40%; combine all that with a program that really sells everything she is best at, AND skate in front of a home crowd.
I'm not trying to turn Sasha into Irina--heaven forbid!--I want Sasha to be the best Sasha she can be as a skater and right now, she's just not and Irina is. I like Irina and Sasha's styles of skating equally, even though they are vastly different. It's no different than loving the styles of Beethoven and Beck equally, but Beck has not yet achieved and perhaps never will achieve the level that Beethoven did. Okay, kind of tough to use a genius for comparison, but you get the idea.
IMO, when/if Sasha does an LP the quality of Tarasova's black-and-white "Swan Lake," particularly the version she used at Trophee Lalique '03, with percentagewise improvements in all the areas I listed above, the I think she'll get the PCS scores Irina got. They keep saying that the PCS scores "replace the old presentation mark" but they don't. And they certainly do not address artistry because artistry is absolutely and completely totally subjective.
The PCS scores are an attempt by the coaches, judges, and skaters who designed them to make "presentation" something that could be judged more objectively. Sasha is still too delicate on the ice, she's still not "into the ice" enough, you're still too nervous when she skates that she's going to Splasha--and I think she's great. But IMO the judges are not evaluating who is prettier on the ice. They are evaluating who is stronger in each PCS area. Had I been judging, knowing how both Irina and Sasha look when they skate live, most of which you can't see on TV, I would have given Irina comparable component scores to most of the judges. In transitions and interpretation, I would have either had Sasha slightly ahead or tied them.
BTW, I think the judges will get better at more accurately analyzing the component scores when they've had about 60% more experience with the COP.
Just the Opinion of Judge Rgirl
Rgirl, you've summed the PCS up quite nicely. It's not about who's looks the prettiest anymore, it is about skill and craft.
Irina's skating has not changed much with COP, she had all the goods already. She already did the difficult spins, always had superb spirals that used the edge, had speed, power, connection to the audience and the technical jumps to boot.
I don't think she was overmarked in the short program either, her protocols indicate she took a big time hit on her elements. Her other elements were high quality however and helped offset the damage from the errors.
TeamSasha is on the right track with her programs and all she needs to do is skate clean. TeamKwan has had the same amount of time as everyone else to be knowledgeable about the NJS and COP. Level 1 elements are not going to win Gold medals.
Irina's skating has not changed much with COP, she had all the goods already. She already did the difficult spins, always had superb spirals that used the edge, had speed, power, connection to the audience and the technical jumps to boot.
I don't think she was overmarked in the short program either, her protocols indicate she took a big time hit on her elements. Her other elements were high quality however and helped offset the damage from the errors.
TeamSasha is on the right track with her programs and all she needs to do is skate clean. TeamKwan has had the same amount of time as everyone else to be knowledgeable about the NJS and COP. Level 1 elements are not going to win Gold medals.
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2005
Bummer for Michelle, but Irina was so inspiring!
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Rgirl, I understood your post right down to this last sentence. But here you say that you thought Irina deserved better component scores than Sasha -- except that in two of the five components (transitions and interpretation) you thought Sasha should be a little ahead of Irina. I would add the choreography component to Sasha's column, too, maybe, by a little bit.Rgirl said:
So this leaves Irina ahead in two of the five areas, skating skills and performance/execution.
I agree with that. But the judges gave her all five across the board, with very little disagreement. So this raises a question in my mind as to how well the new judging system is faring in its attempt "to make 'presentation' something that [can] be judged more objectively."
Mathman
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2004
show 42 said:
Sure she does, if playing "Zamboni" and showing off her flexibility constitutes artistry and interpretation. Personally, I find her "artistry" to be nothing more than a whole lot of "look at me, aren't I bendy and pretty?" attitude. I can think of about a dozen current skaters whose artistry and interpretation I find to be better than Sasha's.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2003
Final flight of ladies
Shizuka Arakawa: Tarasova gave her a great package of choreography, but Shizuka couldn't deliver the elements. As is often the case with many elite skaters, the season right after the first major title win was a rough one. She looked like she just didn't want to be on the ice. I suspect she is suffering from burnout and the pressure of being WC. Hopefully she can rebound next year.
Miki Ando: To be blunt, she needs a lot of work on presentation and overall polish, though her jumps are undoubtedly strong. I see no improvement from last year to this year.
Carolina Kostner: Her marks at Worlds 2004 were ridiculously high, but this year she has made real strides. Her spins and choreography improved significantly; her SP was an especially attractive piece of work. When combined with her oustanding basic skating and strong if erratic jumping power, she is evolving into the complete package. I still notice some awkwardness and gangliness in her movements and she ran out of gas during the 2nd half of the LP, just like in 2003 and 2004. But I liked what I saw and her bronze medal sets her up nicely for the future.
Michelle Kwan: Ouch. I never thought Michelle would skate as badly as she did here. 3 triples in the QR, 4 triples in the LP. That would be mediocre for most elite ladies, for Kwan it is a meltdown. She did skate a strong SP, giving us a frustratingly tantalizing glimmer of the magic she is capable of. Whether she came undone because of trying to adjust to CoP or just had a bad competition is unknown. The change to CoP in 2005 reminds me of the elimination of school figures in 1991. A lot of talented skaters failed to make the transition and a new group of top contenders emerged. Will Michelle bounce back like the champ she has always been or will she become CoP's first casualty? I hope the former; next year will tell the tale.
Sasha Cohen: For two months I have predicted that Sasha would place anywhere from 2nd-5th at these Worlds and I am happy she finished at the high end of my scale of expectations. Unlike her 2004 male counterpart, Brian Joubert, who won his first world (silver) medal last year and then melted down in Moscow, Sasha did not crack under the pressure. She did have some errors sprinkled throughout all 3 phases of the competition and choreographically I feel she has taken a step back from her Tarasova days. But she also kept up a high performance level throughout whereas in the past she got tight and flat in the free (2004) or was just a mess (2003). Her line and extension is unmatched in ladies skating and she was the only woman from 2004 podium (6.0) also on the 2005 podium (CoP).
Irina Slutskaya: She may have gotten a gift in her SP, but Slutskaya was the undisputed queen of this event. Her LP was clearly the best of the night and did a great job of showcasing her strengths. Irina is very comfortable with who she is -- a powerful, athletic skater, not a "pretty pretty" skater and she selects her music and choreography accordingly. 2005 for Irina was as 2003 was for Michelle -- after struggling the year before, she bounced back and everything fell magically into place, capping the season with a spectacular WC win on home ice. Slutskaya now joins Kristi Yamaguchi and Michelle Kwan as the only women who have won multiple world championships in the post-figures era.
Shizuka Arakawa: Tarasova gave her a great package of choreography, but Shizuka couldn't deliver the elements. As is often the case with many elite skaters, the season right after the first major title win was a rough one. She looked like she just didn't want to be on the ice. I suspect she is suffering from burnout and the pressure of being WC. Hopefully she can rebound next year.
Miki Ando: To be blunt, she needs a lot of work on presentation and overall polish, though her jumps are undoubtedly strong. I see no improvement from last year to this year.
Carolina Kostner: Her marks at Worlds 2004 were ridiculously high, but this year she has made real strides. Her spins and choreography improved significantly; her SP was an especially attractive piece of work. When combined with her oustanding basic skating and strong if erratic jumping power, she is evolving into the complete package. I still notice some awkwardness and gangliness in her movements and she ran out of gas during the 2nd half of the LP, just like in 2003 and 2004. But I liked what I saw and her bronze medal sets her up nicely for the future.
Michelle Kwan: Ouch. I never thought Michelle would skate as badly as she did here. 3 triples in the QR, 4 triples in the LP. That would be mediocre for most elite ladies, for Kwan it is a meltdown. She did skate a strong SP, giving us a frustratingly tantalizing glimmer of the magic she is capable of. Whether she came undone because of trying to adjust to CoP or just had a bad competition is unknown. The change to CoP in 2005 reminds me of the elimination of school figures in 1991. A lot of talented skaters failed to make the transition and a new group of top contenders emerged. Will Michelle bounce back like the champ she has always been or will she become CoP's first casualty? I hope the former; next year will tell the tale.
Sasha Cohen: For two months I have predicted that Sasha would place anywhere from 2nd-5th at these Worlds and I am happy she finished at the high end of my scale of expectations. Unlike her 2004 male counterpart, Brian Joubert, who won his first world (silver) medal last year and then melted down in Moscow, Sasha did not crack under the pressure. She did have some errors sprinkled throughout all 3 phases of the competition and choreographically I feel she has taken a step back from her Tarasova days. But she also kept up a high performance level throughout whereas in the past she got tight and flat in the free (2004) or was just a mess (2003). Her line and extension is unmatched in ladies skating and she was the only woman from 2004 podium (6.0) also on the 2005 podium (CoP).
Irina Slutskaya: She may have gotten a gift in her SP, but Slutskaya was the undisputed queen of this event. Her LP was clearly the best of the night and did a great job of showcasing her strengths. Irina is very comfortable with who she is -- a powerful, athletic skater, not a "pretty pretty" skater and she selects her music and choreography accordingly. 2005 for Irina was as 2003 was for Michelle -- after struggling the year before, she bounced back and everything fell magically into place, capping the season with a spectacular WC win on home ice. Slutskaya now joins Kristi Yamaguchi and Michelle Kwan as the only women who have won multiple world championships in the post-figures era.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
I have not yet sat down to write all the COP scores for the top skaters. Although my first impression was that irina was overmarked in the SP, that may not be necessarily true. We are used to thinking in the 6.0 system, and we automatically assume that the slightest mistake in the SP could mean a big deduction. However, with irina's level 3 spins, spirals, and footwork, it is possible that she actually came ahead of others who had cleaner programs with lower levels of difficulty. Even if it turns out she was overmarked in the SP, she absolutely RULED in the LP. It was so wonderful to see her skate like that.
Regarding artistry, I don't equate it with flexibility. Sasha is not always artistically great; she is just very flexible. However, in this competition I think she really skated very well. She definitely deserved the silver medal.
Michelle- I wonder if her goal for this year was to just win the 9th US title? Even if that means not doing great at worlds? Afterall her real goal has to be Torino- the elusive OGM. I wonder if she is simply pacing herself to reach that goal? Whatever it may be, it was painful to see her off the podium for the first time in 10 years.
The biggest disappointment- the Japanese ladies. People were talking about how strong and deep they are, that there would be 2 Japanese ladies on the podium, and so on. Fumie blew the SP. Shizuka blew the LP. Miki is not quite there, except in jumps. In a competitive field nobody can afford to blow one phase of the competition. Michelle is a prime example of that.
Vash
Regarding artistry, I don't equate it with flexibility. Sasha is not always artistically great; she is just very flexible. However, in this competition I think she really skated very well. She definitely deserved the silver medal.
Michelle- I wonder if her goal for this year was to just win the 9th US title? Even if that means not doing great at worlds? Afterall her real goal has to be Torino- the elusive OGM. I wonder if she is simply pacing herself to reach that goal? Whatever it may be, it was painful to see her off the podium for the first time in 10 years.
The biggest disappointment- the Japanese ladies. People were talking about how strong and deep they are, that there would be 2 Japanese ladies on the podium, and so on. Fumie blew the SP. Shizuka blew the LP. Miki is not quite there, except in jumps. In a competitive field nobody can afford to blow one phase of the competition. Michelle is a prime example of that.
Vash
In the quote of mine you cited, I'd like to change it as follows:Mathman said:Rgirl, I understood your post right down to this last sentence. But here you say that you thought Irina deserved better component scores than Sasha -- except that in two of the five components (transitions and interpretation) you thought Sasha should be a little ahead of Irina. I would add the choreography component to Sasha's column, too, maybe, by a little bit.
So this leaves Irina ahead in two of the five areas, skating skills and performance/execution.
I agree with that. But the judges gave her all five across the board, with very little disagreement. So this raises a question in my mind as to how well the new judging system is faring in its attempt "to make 'presentation' something that [can] be judged more objectively."
Mathman
Even though I've seen live as recently as '02 and Sasha in fall '03, I did not see them live that night. I'm not trying to get out of anything, just editing for accuracy.Rgirl said:
As for the question, "How well is the new judging system faring in its attempt to make 'presentation' something that can be judged more objectively [than in the past]?" for one thing, I put "presentation" in quotes because, as Wvgal57 said, "It's not about who's looks the prettiest anymore, it is about skill and craft."
To answer this question as accurately as possible, I'd have to go back and look at the Grand Prix Series and Final over the past two seasons and compare them to the tapes of as many skaters as were broadcast here in the states. Somebody would have to pay me to do that, lol.
The COP was also changed after the first GPS and Final. In '04, the TSS scores, at least in singles, which is what I followed most carefully, were lower overall than they were in '03, especially in the component scores. I think this was a combination of the changes in the wording; the ISU having more workshops for judges so they could better agree on what constituted, for example, a score of 8.0 for Skating Skills vs. a score of 7.0; and the judges moving onward and upward on their own learning curve.
Just taking Skating Skills (SS) for only Irina and Sasha, here are Irina's SS scores from each of the 11 judges and the factored mean:
9.00
9.00
8.75
8.25
7.75
8.25
8.50
8.50
7.75
7.50
8.50
_______
8.43
Here are Sasha's:
8.75
7.75
7.75
8.00
8.00
8.25
7.75
7.75
7.50
6.75
8.25
-----
7.96
The factored means for the rest of the top six placements in the ladies FP only are as follows:
3. Michelle Kwan 7.68
4. Carolina Kostner 7.54
5. Fumie Suguri 7.50
6. Susanna Poykio 7.00
I'm only showing the SS scores here, but having looked at the score sheets for each phase of competition for the top six rankings, IMO, there is both sufficient difference and agreement among the judges in ALL areas of the COP, technical and component scores, to satisfy me that, at this stage in the use of the COP, i.e., still new, the NJS is faring well enough to rank as accurately as any judging system can given the subjective nature of all judging, the skaters in each phase of the competition.
The biggest disagreement among fans with the judges seems to be over the scoring of the SP. It's too late and I'm too tired to go through all those numbers right now, but I will list the main ones and where I think the differences between rankings 1, 2, and 3 occurred.
1. Irina
TES 32.50 -1.43 for the turn on the 3L/2T; -0.51 on the final combo spin
TCS 30.34
TSS 62.84
Levels:
Spins--2 3 1
Spiral--3
FW--3
Total Levels: 12
2. Sasha
TES 32.29 -0.71 on spiral; -1.00 time violation
TCS 30.08
TSS 61.37
Levels:
Spins--2 2 2
Spiral--3
FW--2
Total Levels: 11
3. Michelle
TES 32.20 -0.04 on 1st spin
TCS 29.02
TSS 61.22
Levels:
Spins--1 2 1
Spiral--3
FW--2
Total Levels: 9
For the Total Element Scores (TES), although Irina got rightfully dinged on the turn between her 3L and 2T and also deducted on her final combination spin, she had the highest total levels for her spins, spiral, and FW and made up ground in other areas.
On the Total Component Scores (TCS), there was 0.26 difference between Irina and Sasha, even though they have very different styles. IMO, Irina did not attack the SP the way she did the FP, didn't go as deep into her edges, and my guess is didn't have as much speed. Sasha, OTOH, tends to have good shorts but her FP is not as well choreographed as her short, not as musical, and she seemed to really attack her SP. Irina's levels totalled 12; Sasha's, 11.
Michelle didn't make any mistakes in the SP (am not even counting the -0.04 on the first spin, whatever that was for), which used to be what it was all about under the 6.0 system. The reason I think Michelle was ranked 3rd was her spin levels, i.e., 1, 2, 1. Her spiral was a 3 and her FW a 2, which totalled only 9. Had Michelle executed three level 2 spins and attacked her program with more speed, IMO, she probably would have won the short.
But for what was done, how it was executed, and how it was judged, ITA with the rankings of the top three in the ladies SP.
The other argument that comes up a lot is that the Russians were favored. So I looked at the discipline with no top Russian contenders, the men. Here are the SS scores and factored mean for Lambiel and Buttle, followed by the factored means for the rest of the top six in the FP only:
Lambiel
8.00
7.50
7.75
7.75
8.00
7.25
8.00
7.50
7.75
8.50
7.25
7.00
7.75
Buttle
7.50
6.75
7.75
7.25
8.00
7.25
7.25
7.00
7.50
8.75
7.25
7.50
7.54
3. Sandhu 7.29
4. Lysecek 7.07
5. Van Der Perren 6.57
6. Weir 7.36
Of course you can't evaluate the rankings based on one component score, but what strikes me is that the range of scores for Lambiel and his factored mean score for SS is comparable to the range Irina received. Lambiel and Buttle are closer in their SS factored mean, only .+21 for Lambiel vs. Irina over Sasha by +.47, but IMO, in their Worlds FPs and in general, Lambiel and Buttle are similar in their SS. Also note that the man who placed 3rd in factored mean SS was the 6th place finisher in the FP, Johnny Weir, with 7.36.
The point is, under the COP, at least the way I see it, it's very hard to win or lose or be given an unfair placement based on one or even two mistakes, whereas under the 6.0 system, a turn-out like the one Irina had on her combo in the SP would have dropped her out of the medal race in a strong field. The COP rewards skaters who are good all around skaters who ALSO make the best use of the COP.
I don't think the version of "Bolero" Mihelle performed at Worlds could have beaten Irina's "fortune teller" program ("Wonderland"/"Whisper of the Mirror") no matter how well Michelle would have skated it, but OTOH, Michelle doesn't need to do much to win with more COP-friendly short and long programs. The last thing I'll say is that Michelle looked to me to have lost both muscle mass and definition in her upper body, especially as compared to the last two seasons. I don't think she needs to lose weight. I think she needs to replace perhaps a pound of adipose tissue in her upper body with the muscle she had through nutritional measures and off-ice training. It's what I see as a lack of strength in her upper body compared to the last two years that hurt her jumps.
Finally, back to the question, "How well is the new judging system faring in its attempt to make 'presentation' something that can be judged more objectively [than in the past]?" I think each person who seriously wants to answer that question for him/herself has to look at the detailed score sheets for the top six finishers in each discipline, or for as many skaters as you were able to see, to answer that. IMO, I think the judges can and will do better, but I think that by the '06 Olympics the component scores will be 75% accurate among all judges and 95% accurate in their role in ranking the skaters as they should be. By the 2010 Olympics, I think it will be 95% accuracy for each judge and 99% accurate in ranking the skaters.
To examine the PDF judges' reports go to http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2005/SEG008.HTM and go all the way to the right and click on where it says "Judges Scores (pdf)." Then paarrrrrrrrty
arty: 
!That's my answer.
Rgirl
PS Great posts, Ogre Mage and Vash.
