Ladies - Free Program

[Mathman]

As far as I can see, in a flutz the skater tries to maintain the outside edge as long as possible, cheating onto the inside edge only at the last moment. On a flip you glide in on the inside edge all the way.

Most lady skaters, at least in the U.S., do their Lutz's in the infamous "Lutz corner" -- that is, the corner farthest away from the judges, so the judges can't tell whether they changed edges or not.

On TV, it's actually pretty obvious. A flip usually has a long continuous gliding entry edge which curves in the direction that they are going to jump (counterclockwise for most skaters). On a flutz, the skater also has a long continuous entry edge, except it is curving the other way and right at the end there is a distinct "wobble." Depending on the camera angle, you can even see her foot slip out to the side as she goes onto the inside edge.

I suppose a flutz is still harder than a flip, because you have to maintain that outside edge as long as possible, making it more difficult (I would suppose) to set up your launch.

(All of this is from a non-skating coach potato -- just how it seems to me watching on TV. )

 

[Mathman]

PS. The other thing is -- but this is hard to keep track of watching in real time -- do you land on the same foot that you took off from, or the other one? For some reason if you land on the same foot (toe loop and Wally), everything is backward. The outside edge take-off is easier (toe loop) and the inside edge take-off is "counter-rotated" and hence more difficult (Wally) -- so difficult that no one ever tries a triple Wally (and I guess would not receive any points for it if they did (?) )

I am sure all this make perfect sense when you actually get on the ice.

 

[blue dog]

We can't just target the flutz and the lip if we're going to call skaters out on incorrect edge--the landing edge has to be taken into account, as well. Some skaters land on an inside edge then quickly switch to outside edge, which doesn't have as much flow as a skater landing on a pure outside edge. Why don't incorrect landing edges get as much discussion as flutz and the lip?

 

[t11nah]

In fact, the callers have the power to downgrade toeloop, if it is obviously done as a 'toe-axel'. In that case, callers are not allowed to watch the entrance to the jump in slow motion, they're gonna have to judge it with normal speed..
Why wouldn't this kind of procedure work for flutzes too? I'm not saying they should be downgraded 'cause that would be just too harsh (unless it is a major error, but I haven't seen that bad flutz yet ), but maybe if they could call it a flip, when the mistake is truly obvious for bare eyes..

 

[Mathman]

The trouble with just calling it a flip (the obvious solution) is that skaters probably have two Lutzes and two flips planned already, to maximize their points. If their two flutzes get called as flips, then they receive zero credit for the other two jumps because of repeating the same jump more than twice.

 

[dizzydi7]

Mathman,

"Actually, your pal sounds like a jerk to me. Aren't there any American engineers at your firm with names like Zhang or Nagasu?

No....they are all from India or in India working for the US companies.

Dizzy

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Thanks for your hard work although I disagree with u on flutz.

Congratulations to flutzer Caroline Zhang!!

My next big hope is the other flutzer-Mao will grab the gold medal!

Flutzers made my day!

Are you seriously serious? Do it perfectly or get a deduction... is it a sport or is it whatever iloveaxel says? :disapp:

(fellow posters, I'm sorry but the constant ranting & whining was too much for a Monday morning when I'm suffering from jet lag...)

 

[HCOSurfer]

Congrats to Caroline, Mirai, and Ashley
And why is everyone still arguing about this. I dont ever hear how much Michelle Kwan flutzed, or Sasha, or even Irina in this thread, so then why bash a junior skater who flutzes? I'm pretty sure that if either Irina or Sasha flutzed (Which they do) and won the olympics, it would not get as much attention as these junior skaters are getting right now.

 

[emma]

Congrats to Caroline, Mirai, and Ashley
And why is everyone still arguing about this. I dont ever hear how much Michelle Kwan flutzed, or Sasha, or even Irina in this thread, so then why bash a junior skater who flutzes? I'm pretty sure that if either Irina or Sasha flutzed (Which they do) and won the olympics, it would not get as much attention as these junior skaters are getting right now.

maybe becuase they aren't skating this year --- but i can assure you Sasha's flutz has been pointed out which then often lead to shrieks and analysis of Kwan's flutz -- I don't think Irina flutzed, but I could be wrong - maybe she lipped? (LOL I'm laughing while I'm writing this by the way).

I think the point isn't to bash - at least MY point is NOT TO BASH - but to analyze technique. skating is about, it part at least, edges of the blade and how you use them - fluzting and lipping and landing on the wrong edge etc are examples of 'poor' edge work. Does it mean the skater is BAD? Meaning a bad skater - not at all (but it could depending on other factors).

 

[emma]

The trouble with just calling it a flip (the obvious solution) is that skaters probably have two Lutzes and two flips planned already, to maximize their points. If their two flutzes get called as flips, then they receive zero credit for the other two jumps because of repeating the same jump more than twice.

Right...that's why i said earlier to Red Dog that we don't call a flutz a flip because skaters will get Zayacked...

 

[fsf9012]

Well, Sasha's lutz is different from Kwan's or Slutskaya's because when Sasha takes off, her edge is perfect inside edge while Kwan's and Slutskaya's is flat at least.

I personally think even if flutz may be harder than flip, skaters who flutz should get deduction. As long as they flutz, they don't have "lutz". Lipper should also get deduction, too. Though lip is not a bigger problem than flutz, they still don't use the edge properly.

 

[chuckm]

As I have noted, the three US girls DID get deductions for flutzing, and one skater (Samson) who did a proper lutz in the SP was rewarded with +GOE. So other skaters are not being cheated or deprived in any way because the US girls have imperfect lutz technique. They won the medals because they landed more jumps and executed high-level non-jump elements.

Quite a few ladies tried the lutz in their FS, but most fell, or underrotated and/or two-footed them. Who knows, perhaps some of those attempts were also flutzed. Which leads me to this question: if you are going to champion a deduction for flutz and lip, would you also give the deduction for a flutz/lip landed on two feet? How about an underrotated flutz/lip? A wrong-edge jump, even if it is only a double, is still a wrong-edge jump.

Maybe you can see why this "rule" would never be accepted by the federations. It is a double-edged sword.

 

[blue dog]

I hope these girls defy the odds and become great senior competitors. Not that the most recent crop of Junior world champions have not (look at Mao and Yeon-Ah), but the last time a country swept junior worlds, those juniors failed to materialize in seniors (Russia did this in 1999). In fact, those juniors kept switching countries just so they could go to the world championships.

 

[R.D.]

That's the key...they have to make the TRANSITION. Rachel of the US started off on a pretty good foot- top 6 in her debut. I don't know when Zhang/Nagasu will first compete in senior nats (is it 2009?) but I think they'll be under a lot of pressure to replace Kimmie/Emily/Alyssa as the US's front runners.

 

[flying camel]

That's the key...they have to make the TRANSITION. Rachel of the US started off on a pretty good foot- top 6 in her debut. I don't know when Zhang/Nagasu will first compete in senior nats (is it 2009?) but I think they'll be under a lot of pressure to replace Kimmie/Emily/Alyssa as the US's front runners.

Zhang says she plans to compete in seniors next year, so that's 2008.

 

[chuckm]

Caroline and Mirai plan to compete at Senior Nationals next year, even though neither will be eligible for senior ISU Championships until 2009. They also plan to remain in the JGP (Rachael will skate JGP as well).

BTW, Rachael Flatt finished 5th at Nationals and doesn't have to do Regionals and Sectionals next season. Caroline and Mirai do, unless their JGP events are scheduled to conflict with Regional dates. If they make the JGPF, they won't have to do Sectionals.

 

[R.D.]

Then we'll have some fun next year, will we not? :yes:

If Kim stays healthy I say she may win number two

 

[Sylvia]

Zhang says she plans to compete in seniors next year, so that's 2008.

I don't believe Mirai Nagasu has publically stated that she will move up to senior in the U.S. next season, but she most likely will. I expect that she will make her debut on the JGP this fall for additional junior international experience.

Now that Zhang has won the Jr. World title, will she return to the JGP this fall or try the Senior GP? And what about Ashley Wagner who, unlike Zhang and Nagasu, is age-eligible for 2008 Four Continents and Worlds? We'll have to wait and see...

 

[Tonichelle]

Yeay for Ashley!!!!! I can't wait to see how she continues to improve!!!!!!

 

[Mathman]

Which leads me to this question: if you are going to champion a deduction for flutz and lip, would you also give the deduction for a flutz/lip landed on two feet? How about an underrotated flutz/lip? A wrong-edge jump, even if it is only a double, is still a wrong-edge jump.

Maybe you can see why this "rule" would never be accepted by the federations...

Hmmm. Yes, I am starting to see some of the difficulties.

I guess we will have to be content with the judges being strict in giving the -3 to -1 GOE.

On the other hand, I am not so convinced that a skater deserves a +GOE just for doing the element the way it is supposed to be done. That's what the 6.0 base value is for.