I'm suprised because of the new system. Sasha was skating well and getting consistant. Fumie was skating not as consistantly and her component marks were lower than Sasha's. Over at another board, in twelve pages of predicting, hardly ANYONE picked Fumie to win. Some even left her off the podium.
Ladies Free Skate
- Thread starter RealtorGal
- Start date
First of all, congratulations Fumie! I love her when she skates well and was thrilled with her SP "Paint It Black" at Cup of China (which I screwed up on with my VCR so I'm glad I have another chance to tape it
). Although I still want to get my hands on her free leg on her spiral and turn it out and extend it.
But she gets all my respect for this win. Fumie fought through several poor skates to peak at the right time. By all reports, she was great at NHK and that win was also great timing for her confidence. Also kudos to Lori Nichol for finding music and creating choreography that made the most of Fumie's strengths and allowed her to really shine. Great for Team Fumie!
Quote from Tharttell: "I'm hoping that the Sasha of the last week is just a physically tired skater. Now she'll have time to go home, stay in the same place for a few weeks, and get back to where she was in the beginning of the year. It'd be much more difficult to get back on track if the cheesefest spooked her."
ITA, Tharttell, and here's my take on it: Not to make excuses, but IMO, after the IFSC, it seemed to me that all bets were off for both Sasha and Shizuka because of the travel/competition fatigue factor. Just the laws of sports physiology--and as Mathman pointed out, why major league baseball pitchers are only allowed to pitch every third game. As I said on the SP thread, it was "interesting" that the two skaters who had skated at IFSC, Shizuka and Sasha, did worse than expected--not to mention Plushenko in the men's GPF. OTOH, skaters know the schedule in advance and even though some of them really would have been nailed if they had bowed out of IFSC, ie, Sasha, I hope that in the future she and Tarasova work on the timing for the overall season, what's called training and competitive periodization. It just means looking at your competitive schedule for the entire season and factor in rest periods and competitions you can afford to spend minimal energy on, even at the risk of losing, so that you don't burn out. Not taking an iota away from Fumie's win, having seen Sasha live at Campbell's and the way she skated at her three GP events, IMO, she has the strength and technique to skate well and consistently but what I don't think she and Tarasova have at this point is overall season training/competitive intelligence. Dick Button commented on this re Michelle at IFCS, ie, that one of the reasons she has stayed at the top so long in this sport is that she has great intelligence about how much she should do and when to do it--and ITA. IMO, this is something Sasha and Tarasova need to develop.
However, I think it's also possible to make too much out of IFCS and GPF. Fumie skated poorly at early GP events; Sasha did at the end. IMO, this underscores why Fumie and Sasha have had such close results since the '02 Olympics. Although theyare very different skaters with very different strengths and weaknesses, overall, I see them as being very evenly matched, which makes for a fascinating rivalry. With Sokolova looking so out of it this season, perhaps Sasha and Fumie will be battling for the silver at Worlds--and also perhaps with Shizuka.
Not the GPF results in the ladies' or men's disciplines that most people would have expected a few weeks ago, but congratulations to Fumie and E-Man, and hopes for Sasha, Shizuka, and even Plush that they learn from the experience.
Rgirl
Off-topic: Just wanted to say how sad it was to not see Irina at this event because of her heart ailment. Before last season, Irina had pretty much "owned" the GPF, so I couldn't help but think of her. This is a serious inflammation of the heart, which results in a dangerous build-up of fluids. With appropriate medial care and monitering, she can most likely live a normal life, but her skating career may be affected. I'm sure every skating fan, whether they're a fan of Irina or not, will be wishing Irina and her family all the best.
). Although I still want to get my hands on her free leg on her spiral and turn it out and extend it. But she gets all my respect for this win. Fumie fought through several poor skates to peak at the right time. By all reports, she was great at NHK and that win was also great timing for her confidence. Also kudos to Lori Nichol for finding music and creating choreography that made the most of Fumie's strengths and allowed her to really shine. Great for Team Fumie!Quote from Tharttell: "I'm hoping that the Sasha of the last week is just a physically tired skater. Now she'll have time to go home, stay in the same place for a few weeks, and get back to where she was in the beginning of the year. It'd be much more difficult to get back on track if the cheesefest spooked her."
ITA, Tharttell, and here's my take on it: Not to make excuses, but IMO, after the IFSC, it seemed to me that all bets were off for both Sasha and Shizuka because of the travel/competition fatigue factor. Just the laws of sports physiology--and as Mathman pointed out, why major league baseball pitchers are only allowed to pitch every third game. As I said on the SP thread, it was "interesting" that the two skaters who had skated at IFSC, Shizuka and Sasha, did worse than expected--not to mention Plushenko in the men's GPF. OTOH, skaters know the schedule in advance and even though some of them really would have been nailed if they had bowed out of IFSC, ie, Sasha, I hope that in the future she and Tarasova work on the timing for the overall season, what's called training and competitive periodization. It just means looking at your competitive schedule for the entire season and factor in rest periods and competitions you can afford to spend minimal energy on, even at the risk of losing, so that you don't burn out. Not taking an iota away from Fumie's win, having seen Sasha live at Campbell's and the way she skated at her three GP events, IMO, she has the strength and technique to skate well and consistently but what I don't think she and Tarasova have at this point is overall season training/competitive intelligence. Dick Button commented on this re Michelle at IFCS, ie, that one of the reasons she has stayed at the top so long in this sport is that she has great intelligence about how much she should do and when to do it--and ITA. IMO, this is something Sasha and Tarasova need to develop.
However, I think it's also possible to make too much out of IFCS and GPF. Fumie skated poorly at early GP events; Sasha did at the end. IMO, this underscores why Fumie and Sasha have had such close results since the '02 Olympics. Although theyare very different skaters with very different strengths and weaknesses, overall, I see them as being very evenly matched, which makes for a fascinating rivalry. With Sokolova looking so out of it this season, perhaps Sasha and Fumie will be battling for the silver at Worlds--and also perhaps with Shizuka.
I talked about this in the IFSC thread, but basically what he did was make her first arabesque spiral into a serpentine change-edge, made sure she held her second catch-foot Beillmann position spiral, and added an arabesque directly into a front extension or "fan" spiral. Shizuka's spiral sequence had been the one thing in her programs that I had wanted to "grab a hold of and fix" before and Callaghan (or the choreographer) fixed it. IMO, I attribute this change directly to the COP. Why? Shizuka had the same problem with her spiral sequences all last season, that is, rushing them. True, she had a different coach, but not even Callaghan changed it until after the GP series and they could see on the Detailed Results that this was an element she needed to and could easily improve. In a close competition, those couple of extra points on the spiral sequence could make the difference between podium and not, or even gold and silver.rtureck said:
Not the GPF results in the ladies' or men's disciplines that most people would have expected a few weeks ago, but congratulations to Fumie and E-Man, and hopes for Sasha, Shizuka, and even Plush that they learn from the experience.
Rgirl
Off-topic: Just wanted to say how sad it was to not see Irina at this event because of her heart ailment. Before last season, Irina had pretty much "owned" the GPF, so I couldn't help but think of her. This is a serious inflammation of the heart, which results in a dangerous build-up of fluids. With appropriate medial care and monitering, she can most likely live a normal life, but her skating career may be affected. I'm sure every skating fan, whether they're a fan of Irina or not, will be wishing Irina and her family all the best.
Last edited:
C
Cactus
Guest
Fumie Suguri has NEVER won any senior grand prix event until the NHK Trophy recently. And now she's the Grand Prix Finals champion! Despite her veteran status among the elite ranks, this counts as some sort of surprise.
What's not surprising is Sasha Cohen's meltdown. The girl just does not have the mental tenacity to handle pressurized competitions. All the excuses ring pretty hollow by now. Sasha has proven time after time after time that she brings on the splats during major competitions. Every single one of those botched competitions have their own individual factors that one may turn into excuses (It's the altitude! It's the traveling! It's the "legend of Michelle Kwan" as Peggy puts it.). Taken together, though, it's a pattern of mental weakness. No, people, her failures at major competitions aren't flukes, they're the norm.
The proper way to appreciate Sasha's skating is to be pleasantly surprised when she does well in a high pressure situation, and then analyze the myriad factors that somehow allowed her to concenrate.
What's not surprising is Sasha Cohen's meltdown. The girl just does not have the mental tenacity to handle pressurized competitions. All the excuses ring pretty hollow by now. Sasha has proven time after time after time that she brings on the splats during major competitions. Every single one of those botched competitions have their own individual factors that one may turn into excuses (It's the altitude! It's the traveling! It's the "legend of Michelle Kwan" as Peggy puts it.). Taken together, though, it's a pattern of mental weakness. No, people, her failures at major competitions aren't flukes, they're the norm.
The proper way to appreciate Sasha's skating is to be pleasantly surprised when she does well in a high pressure situation, and then analyze the myriad factors that somehow allowed her to concenrate.
I think Arakawa should be tired too. She's done as much at Sasha and imo has skated better. The reason no one picked Fumie to win is because the judges love Sasha and imo inflate her scores way over skaters that are just as good without the flexibility. I'm sorry for Sasha's skate. I don't like to see her fall apart but I wonder if Sasha's mentally strong for mistakes.
Cactus
Thanks. I think Carolina's FI/FO spiral has deep edges oh the curve!!, speed and flow too. In real life it looks awesome. I forget all about watching the amplitude and extension
rgirl
Then it is good that Shizuka made the change. Actually Callaghan is very serious about his coaching. At SA gala practice, Shizuka went through the motion of her exhibition program without the jumps or spins. Callaghan made her repeat the whole thing with all the jumps/ spins/ spirals/ and MITF. Shizuka's gala performance was one of the high points at Reading for me.
Thanks. I think Carolina's FI/FO spiral has deep edges oh the curve!!, speed and flow too. In real life it looks awesome. I forget all about watching the amplitude and extension
rgirl
Then it is good that Shizuka made the change. Actually Callaghan is very serious about his coaching. At SA gala practice, Shizuka went through the motion of her exhibition program without the jumps or spins. Callaghan made her repeat the whole thing with all the jumps/ spins/ spirals/ and MITF. Shizuka's gala performance was one of the high points at Reading for me.
Last edited:
Joesitz said:
I didn't pick Fumie to win, only wanted her to skate her best. The skate gods gave me those wonderful lucky numbers for Fumie in a dream before the beginning of the season.
Yeah 550, and 488
I post that as my sig line for a while. I struggled all season to figure out the meaning of those numbers. Finally the skate gods told me in a dream. "Idiot add a special letter K in front of the numbers!!"
What ya know. K550, and K488
Now Mathman, our number specialist, what does that mean?
In my latest dream the skate gods revealed the names Pollini and Bohm!! So there we unlock the Fumie lp music puzzle!!
Mozart should beat Tchaikovsky and Puccini any day. That also means Mozart is difficult to skate to. I love Fumie, I am a huge fan but I think she is just beginning to scratch the artistic vision Lori has in mind for her re: these pieces. But I am also encouraged, Fumie is a good pupil, give her more time with Lori, maybe she will be the best Mozart skater in the world. Fumie is lyric, ethereal and soulful, a good start.
Last edited:
lavender said:
Shizuka has good basics and jump techniques, and she is practicing different 3/3 and 3a. She landed some beautiful 3lutz/3t and triple axel in SA practice. I think she should concentrate on doing those well and give up the other 3s/3l e.g.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
rTurek - Those are Kershel listings (numbers). Apparently the wunderkind wrote so many pieces, someone had to put them in a sort of file system. And yes, he is very special in the music world. I've seen a number of ballets where Mozart music is used most of which are quite intricate in a brio sort of way. They would be difficult to bring to the ice. Fumie's music is a nice change from the warhorses.
I'm looking forward to seeing Fumie do this. I had seen it in Campbells and was not impressed.
Cactus and all others. This has been a rouind the world competition with a fluff competition in between. I do believe the excuse of being tired is valid. I used to travel a lot. I'd fly for hours on end; get to a hotel; take a shower; then go to a meeting and fall asleep. I was not at my best.
Have we heard from anyone who was there?
Joe
I'm looking forward to seeing Fumie do this. I had seen it in Campbells and was not impressed.
Cactus and all others. This has been a rouind the world competition with a fluff competition in between. I do believe the excuse of being tired is valid. I used to travel a lot. I'd fly for hours on end; get to a hotel; take a shower; then go to a meeting and fall asleep. I was not at my best.
Have we heard from anyone who was there?
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
This explains to me why I find Arakawa's LP so affecting from beginning to end. I just watched the cheez-fest last night, and what struck me was how full the movement and choreography throughout the program. If she's practicing without the tech elements, an empty program would appear just that, but she's invested in the steps and expression between the jumps, spins, and spirals, probably due to this approach. I think that's brilliant.rtureck said:
Cohen's tech meltdown there made me appreciate the "guts" of her Swan Lake. I know that was an unintential run-through without jumps, but it said a lot about her expression and the rest of the program.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
The USFSA article on the free program mentions that Fumie was quite emotional at the end of her successful skate. I love it! She is a beautiful skater and seems to be such a genuine person. I've always wanted to see her perform well and win over a distinguished field. Beating the heavily touted Cohen should give her some self-confidence heading to Dortmund. As for Sasha, well, it does seem to be a situation in which she and Tarasova haven't balanced the schedule well. Hopefully, she'll regain her form by the time Nationals rolls around...but she definitely won't be the undisputed favorite. The question mark has reappeared. I also wouldn't blame the entire break in consistency on "burn out" or poor scheduling. I think those two factors play a role along with the concentration/mental issues that existed in previous seasons. At any rate, I don't like seeing Sasha mar her brilliance with silly mistakes. I want and expect to see a beautiful Kwan/Cohen battle live in Atlanta!
At the Cheesefest, Sasha had problems with all her jumps, as not one of the two she actually landed were in any way secure.
At the GPF, it seemed to be the pick jumps giving her trouble. She fell on her 3Z at the SP and lost her combination. In the FS, she had only a single flutz, no lutz combination, and fell on her 3F and 3T.
Maybe she was tired, or the altitude affected her badly, but why on earth did she get such high SC scores for such a flawed performance? One of the judges actually gave her three 9.0 scores (performance/execution, choreography and interpretation). How can a program with two falls and missing combinations get such high scores? If she skated completely cleanly, would she get 11s?
At the GPF, it seemed to be the pick jumps giving her trouble. She fell on her 3Z at the SP and lost her combination. In the FS, she had only a single flutz, no lutz combination, and fell on her 3F and 3T.
Maybe she was tired, or the altitude affected her badly, but why on earth did she get such high SC scores for such a flawed performance? One of the judges actually gave her three 9.0 scores (performance/execution, choreography and interpretation). How can a program with two falls and missing combinations get such high scores? If she skated completely cleanly, would she get 11s?
I agree, Chuckm. Even though I like Sasha's skating, I don't like to see any skater get marks that don't reflect what they did. But at least with the COP, that 9.0, being one of the two high scores, would have been thrown out. So it doesn't count toward the Total Component Score.
Rgirl
Rgirl
Rgirl said:
Rgirl, what worries me is that there can easily be collusion between or among judges in the CoP system, so that one judge throws out a ridiculously high score like that 9.0 just so it can be tossed. Other judges then score the same skater 8.75s, and those stay (if selected). A group of 3-4 judges could do this with impunity.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
The CoP has to have a method of checking any wrongdoing and ineptness in the judging. Without it, it's SLC deja vu. Will there be an honest discussion after this GP is over? and moreso, will there be the proper safeguards introduced?
Joe
Joe
But that's why CoP IS NO SOLUTION to the SLC problem!
It's removing the appendix when the gall bladder is causing the distress.
As long as judging is anonymous, the judges are free to do as they please, and if it pleases them to collude and they are able to get away with it, they will! The ISU has disciplined judges in the past only because the cheating was blatant, and there was loud public outcry.
Now that everything is hidden, anything can happen, and I do not believe the ISU will do anything about questionable or outrageous results.
It's removing the appendix when the gall bladder is causing the distress.
As long as judging is anonymous, the judges are free to do as they please, and if it pleases them to collude and they are able to get away with it, they will! The ISU has disciplined judges in the past only because the cheating was blatant, and there was loud public outcry.
Now that everything is hidden, anything can happen, and I do not believe the ISU will do anything about questionable or outrageous results.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Chuckon - I hate to agree, but I do. There has to be a safeguard put in to this judging system to prevent collusion, and hopefull ineptness too.
Joe
Joe
