Ladies LP | Page 13 | Golden Skate

Ladies LP

Yep, I thought Mirai flutz too. Even though Mirai is my favorite skater that doesn't mean she didn't flutz. She did at skate america but the judges didn't notice or decided not to notice. As for Miki's flip, it didn't look anything like Yuna's flip. Miki had an inside take off.
 
agree, that Yu-Na is definitely not the only one. Perhaps if the judges were using slow-motion the calls might get more consistent and the fans would be less upset because what is obvious to one is not necessarily obvious to the other. The same goes for underrotations or are they using slow-motion for these?
I think many skaters get mixed messaged about their jumps.
Of course, I don't think slow-motion would solve all controversies regarding this topic but it should certainly help a lot.

Someone on a board told us about the system. Apparently the technical callers DO Not immediately go to slow motion. What they do is they call the jumps in real time, and if they think the jump is underrotated or could be than they go to the slow motion to see for sure.

Essentially the slow motion is actually put into place To Give the skater the benefit of the doubt. The same goes for lutzs/flutzs. It's got to be called in real time and than it's only reviewed IF the caller thought in real time it was a flutz/lutz.
 
Here's an example:
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=C2wx-HeRumQ

Pause it at 7:07 and you will clearly see she's on an outside edge.

You will clearly see she's not on any great degree of an outside edge. Her Flip is fine. Not only fine, but excellent. She has the strongest 3Flip-3Toe combination out of any female in the world.

It's already unfair to other skaters. Yuna's LIP is called perfect while Miki's similar LIP is called LIP. The edge calls and underrotation calls are very subjective and silly. They need major overhaul.

Miki's Flip used to definitely be a Lip, but she fixed it last season.

The rules regarding underrotation definitely need a BIG, BIG overhaul. The rules regarding edge calls aren't as bad, but need to be improved as well.
 
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Has the "Yes she lips, Heck no way" controversy died down?
As a non-expert, I'm quite confused by all this.

But I must say that some of the posters, who insist on labeling Kim as "a lipper" just sound bitter sore losers.
After all, if it is a lip, it's apparently not noticeable to the judges and a whole array of former champions and commentators.

Also I believe that there is a difference between "she lips" and "she is a lipper" as in we all lie but do we all call ourselves liars.

I don't know if other skaters are called "lipper," "flutzer," "underrotater(:biggrin:)," "arm flapper" or whatnot, but as a fan of this great sports, I ask that we all be civil and respectful toward all the skaters.

Having said that, I guess I'd better apologize to Evan Lysacek! :p
(I love your arms~~)
 
You will clearly see she's not on any great degree of an outside edge. Her Flip is fine. Not only fine, but excellent. She has the strongest 3Flip-3Toe combination out of any female in the world.

I think that's what I see, too.
I mean, I can understand why some people might want to argue that it isn't a perfect flip, but I don't see how others can call that "an OBVIOUS LIP."

I've seen some videos, and obvious lips are really REALLY obvious.
 
Someone on a board told us about the system. Apparently the technical callers DO Not immediately go to slow motion. What they do is they call the jumps in real time, and if they think the jump is underrotated or could be than they go to the slow motion to see for sure.

Essentially the slow motion is actually put into place To Give the skater the benefit of the doubt. The same goes for lutzs/flutzs. It's got to be called in real time and than it's only reviewed IF the caller thought in real time it was a flutz/lutz.

I believe there is no slow-motion review for flutz/lip at all.

Actually, I'm not sure I like the idea of only slow-mo'ing called UR jumps. If the tech panel thinks there's any chance that a skater under-rotates a jump, they'll call it and later correct it if it's not, because they know they'll have no opportunity to downgrade it otherwise. That's particularly disadvantageous for skaters who have established a reputation of UR's, even if they've really worked hard on it -- they'd never get as much of benefit of doubt as others who are not already stigmatized with UR.

I say, do away with the slow-mo altogether. UR calls should be done like the edge calls. If it's not obvious to experienced tech callers that a triple jump is UR'ed in real time, then it shouldn't be penalized like it's a very badly done double! And in fact, I want them to institute something like the "!" for potentially UR'ed jumps as they do for the flutz/lip now. I want the judges to be given a little more authority/control over how to evaluate a jump. They should be given individual opportunity to decide whether a jump is really fully rotated or not, and how any potential under-rotation balances out any other merit/fault of jump to arrive at an overall evaluation in the GOE mark. Ten pairs of eyes from different angles can see more than a single tech panel. I really hated all along that COP took more and more authority away from the judges and gave them to tech controllers and pretending they don't have human flaws or individual biases.

IMHO, the institution of "!" for edge deduction this year was a good idea -- at most, tech panel's assessment of wrong-edge take-off should be advisory and be a component of evaluating a jump, not mandatory and over-riding other aspects of the jump. We saw mostly !'s handed out at SA, not "e". But really, if it's such an obvious edge call to merit an "e", judges don't need the "e" to notice it, they have their eyes for that!

The same should be done with under-rotations. This would also deal with the double penalty for downgrades, and instead allow a system that penalizes more severe UR's more severely.

In addition to instituting something like "!" for UR, they should do away with automatic downgrades, and give the judges an opportunity to assign GOEs that vary across the full range, down to -3, plus an opportunity to impose an extra one-point deduction (as in a fall) if they felt the jump really shouldn't even be counted as a triple (if a triple is intended).
 
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[say, do away with the slow-mo altogether. UR calls should be done like the edge calls. If it's not obvious to experienced tech callers that a triple jump is UR'ed in real time, then it shouldn't be penalized like it's a very badly done double! And in fact, I want them to institute something like the "!" for potentially UR'ed jumps as they do for the flutz/lip now. I want the judges to be given a little more authority/control over how to evaluate a jump. They should be given individual opportunity to decide whether a jump is really fully rotated or not, and how any potential under-rotation balances out any other merit/fault of jump to arrive at an overall evaluation in the GOE mark. Ten pairs of eyes from different angles can see more than a single tech panel. I really hated all along that COP took more and more authority away from the judges and gave them to tech controllers and pretending they don't have human flaws or individual biases.

I disagree then the only "obvious" cases will the ones that land forward. It's not a ridiculous requirement to say that a skater can only be 1/4 short.

And the skater who has the reputation for underrotating, will eventually stop getting that reputation when callers start ratifying their jumps consistently.... But the slow motion is actually done to benefit the skater.... Without it perhaps more underrotations will just be called.
 
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I saw Miki's, Michelle Kwan's and even G&G's Scheherazade on Youtube and I like Yu-na's the best. It seems Wilson's choreography is the best out of those four; he really hits all the inflections in the melody and Yu-na delivers it. It's ironic, because I so much disliked this musice before Yu-na's LP.
 
Also I believe that there is a difference between "she lips" and "she is a lipper" as in we all lie but do we all call ourselves liars.

I don't know if other skaters are called "lipper," "flutzer," "underrotater(:biggrin:)," "arm flapper" or whatnot, but as a fan of this great sports, I ask that we all be civil and respectful toward all the skaters.

I second that.:agree: By the way here is a tip for those aggressive posters who refuse to be civil;): if you want to convince others to agree with you on something, it is always more effective to present your views in a civil, logical manner and put your emotions aside. This works particularly well when arguing with your spouse...
 
I believe there is no slow-motion review for flutz/lip at all.

Actually, I'm not sure I like the idea of only slow-mo'ing called UR jumps. If the tech panel thinks there's any chance that a skater under-rotates a jump, they'll call it and later correct it if it's not, because they know they'll have no opportunity to downgrade it otherwise. That's particularly disadvantageous for skaters who have established a reputation of UR's, even if they've really worked hard on it -- they'd never get as much of benefit of doubt as others who are not already stigmatized with UR.

I say, do away with the slow-mo altogether. UR calls should be done like the edge calls. If it's not obvious to experienced tech callers that a triple jump is UR'ed in real time, then it shouldn't be penalized like it's a very badly done double! And in fact, I want them to institute something like the "!" for potentially UR'ed jumps as they do for the flutz/lip now. I want the judges to be given a little more authority/control over how to evaluate a jump. They should be given individual opportunity to decide whether a jump is really fully rotated or not, and how any potential under-rotation balances out any other merit/fault of jump to arrive at an overall evaluation in the GOE mark. Ten pairs of eyes from different angles can see more than a single tech panel. I really hated all along that COP took more and more authority away from the judges and gave them to tech controllers and pretending they don't have human flaws or individual biases.

IMHO, the institution of "!" for edge deduction this year was a good idea -- at most, tech panel's assessment of wrong-edge take-off should be advisory and be a component of evaluating a jump, not mandatory and over-riding other aspects of the jump. We saw mostly !'s handed out at SA, not "e". But really, if it's such an obvious edge call to merit an "e", judges don't need the "e" to notice it, they have their eyes for that!

The same should be done with under-rotations. This would also deal with the double penalty for downgrades, and instead allow a system that penalizes more severe UR's more severely.

In addition to instituting something like "!" for UR, they should do away with automatic downgrades, and give the judges an opportunity to assign GOEs that vary across the full range, down to -3, plus an opportunity to impose an extra one-point deduction (as in a fall) if they felt the jump really shouldn't even be counted as a triple (if a triple is intended).

Thank you for your insightful post. I think it a great idea to give judges greater authority to assess UR.

Yep, I thought Mirai flutz too. Even though Mirai is my favorite skater that doesn't mean she didn't flutz. She did at skate america but the judges didn't notice or decided not to notice.

Which one did you think she flutzed? I was concerned about Mirai's edge call, but I thought that she did fine at this time. I thought she had a shallow outside edge or at least a flat one.
 
Which one did you think she flutzed? I was concerned about Mirai's edge call, but I thought that she did fine at this time. I thought she had a shallow outside edge or at least a flat one.

To me, it looked like she swerved in and out of the outside edge in the SP and also the first 3Z in the LP. The second 3Z was at a bad angle on NBC's camera view, but it looked more like it was on an inside edge.
 
Again, Yu-Na's lip is at the 7:07 mark here:
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=C2wx-HeRumQ

Perhaps some people aren't looking at her edge at the moment she jumps. That is, as her right toe pick and blade hit the ice. The blade on her left foot is 35 to 40 degrees on an outside edge when it is supposed to be on an inside edge. In layman's terms, her left foot and blade is heavily leaning towards the left "\" when it is supposed to be leaning towards the right "/".

The rules for wrong edge takeoffs have already been posted, but let's look at them again:
IV. Clarification of evaluating the Flip and Lutz jumps
1. The Technical Panel will use the sign “ e ” (edge) for severe cases of wrong take-off edge (long wrong edge, no correct edge at all etc.); in these cases GOE of the Judges must be reduced by –1 to –3 and must be negative.
2. The Technical Panel will use the sign “ ! ” (attention) in cases when a wrong take-off edge is short or not so obvious; in these cases the decision on the GOE is at the discretion of every Judge.
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=980
See also page 55 here: http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/First Aid Singles 2008-09.pdf

As far as I know, the rules don't preclude the technical panel from watching the takeoff in slow motion and then coming to a decision. What is precluded is watching the takeoff in slow motion to determine if the jump is too pre-rotated (cheated takeoff). (However, if the technical panel spotted an under-rotated landing and so replay the jump in slow motion, they would need to look at the takeoff point to determine the flight path. They would then likely spot cheated takeoffs that they didn't see at regular speed.)

Here is a YouTube video and comments about Yu-Na's wrong edge takeoff in the SP (which appears to be 15 to 20 degrees on an outside edge when looking at it under much better video resolution than the YouTube video here):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMWpODdtNK0

For comparison, here Yu-Na does the flip corrrectly :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iel9kjBAq2s

IMO, Yu-Na should've gotten a "!" in both the SP and the LP. Although her lip is obvious in the LP, it was short and so in accordance with the rules it didn't deserve the "e". The blown call didn't matter much here, but in a closer competition, it could easily be the difference between winning and 2nd place.
 
But I must say that some of the posters, who insist on labeling Kim as "a lipper" just sound bitter sore losers.
After all, if it is a lip, it's apparently not noticeable to the judges and a whole array of former champions and commentators.

Also I believe that there is a difference between "she lips" and "she is a lipper" as in we all lie but do we all call ourselves liars.


I am not a "bitter, sore loser". My favorite skater certainly isn't a lip call away from beating Yu-Na, so I really have no reason to be saying this out of bitterness. I simply want a fair sport where every skater is treated equally.

The "!" is given when skaters' takeoff edges are questionable. I cannot see how Yu-Na's flip deserves to be excluded from that category. In the video posted, at 7:07, she appears to be on an outside edge. Can anyone provide a video that actually shows her taking off from an inside edge? If not, I certainly think a "!" call would be justified.

Are there other skaters out there who are not getting called for questionable edges? I'm sure their are. So I will apologize for singling out Yu-Na, but that still doesn't change the fact that her takeoff is questionable at best (it looks like a lip) and deserves a "!".


If it was up to me, there would be no wrong-edge calls at all except when it's blatantly obvious (an example is Ashley Wagner's lutz). But since there are wrong-edge calls, I want them applied to everyone, whether they are top 3 in the world or top 103 in the world.


One last thing I will comment on... I am surprised so many people seem to put so much weight into what commentators say on TV. The commentators' job is to appeal to the general public that is watching the broadcast. Most people don't know a lip from a layback, and really don't want to know either. The commentators' job this weekend was to explain to the casual viewer why Yu-Na deserved to win... They weren't there to over analyze her flip edge, and they certainly aren't going to accuse the judges of ignoring it. That's why I mentioned that the skating fans on a forum like this would be more likely to care than the so-called "experts" on TV.
 
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To me, it looked like she swerved in and out of the outside edge in the SP and also the first 3Z in the LP. The second 3Z was at a bad angle on NBC's camera view, but it looked more like it was on an inside edge.

I agree that the second 3z might have been inside, but I can't tell, either.
 
Someone on a board told us about the system. Apparently the technical callers DO Not immediately go to slow motion. What they do is they call the jumps in real time, and if they think the jump is underrotated or could be than they go to the slow motion to see for sure ....
Yeah, that's likely what happened with Yu-Na's lip. The technical panel just failed to spot it and so didn't review it in slow motion. In slow motion (and with the picture quality that we got on NBC) the lip is 100% certain.
 
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btw, it is just me or that different angle seems to show different feeling of Yuna's jump? One angle, it looks very lippish, but the other ones look flat, straight edge?
 
Here is a YouTube video and comments about Yu-Na's wrong edge takeoff in the SP (which appears to be 15 to 20 degrees on an outside edge when looking at it under much better video resolution than the YouTube video here):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMWpODdtNK0

Oh dear God, THAT video.

The creator of the video used a program to edit the image. Look at the actual performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k2SrcpGIec
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQPAjiK8egM

She absolutely does not go like that onto the outside edge as sunnyblade22 would have you believe.

Again, Yu-Na's lip is at the 7:07 mark here:
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=C2wx-HeRumQ

Perhaps some people aren't looking at her edge at the moment she jumps. That is, as her right toe pick and blade hit the ice. The blade on her left foot is 35 to 40 degrees on an outside edge when it is supposed to be on an inside edge. In layman's terms, her left foot and blade is heavily leaning towards the left "\" when it is supposed to be leaning towards the right "/".

Uhh, the moment you jump isn't the moment your toe pick hits the ice.

I admit that she was more on the outside in the LP, but it still wasn't a Lip. It's not at ALL 35 to 40 degrees to the outside as you say. The way her leg is bent gives the impression that the blade is further over than it really is. The picture is also better here:

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=kgnr2WITkkA

It's still absolutely hilarious (and annoying and tiresome) to me that people are trying to rip this element apart when it is executed so AMAZINGLY well.

Carolina Kostner is the only person who can approach Yu-Na on this element, but she's still not as good because (A.) she telegraphs the jump, whereas Yu-Na goes into it with a blazingly fast 3-turn, and (B.) Kostner's exiting speed usually isn't quite as good.
 
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Yeah, that's likely what happened with Yu-Na's lip. The technical panel just failed to spot it and so didn't review it in slow motion. In slow motion (and with the picture quality that we got on NBC) the lip is 100% certain.

Yu-na does not lip.

See Daisuke TAKAHASHI's flip slow-mo 04:35
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=uqN-oksDFzU&feature=related

And capture 04:38






Flip might look like slight outside edge right after the toe pick depeding on the camara angle.
But that doesn't mean it is lip.

OTOH in lutz jump, you should maintain strong outside edge after the toe pick. That's the mechanism of jumps.

 
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