Ladies LP | Page 15 | Golden Skate

Ladies LP

Yes, Yu-na made some minor mistakes but it didn't affect the program.
I noticed them to but the quality of the overall out did those mistakes.

Rachels scores was a bit high. Sure she skated with some maturity however it is still juniorish in its own way. I don't know if they called all of her urs. But outside of that Both Rachel and Mirai did okay on theirs Grand Prix assignment.
I was hoping it would be better. But they did okay
 
*Sniper* said:
I guess I'm the one that called you guys sore losers, and here is why.

I've been browsing through this thread ever since this lipping controversy took over 2/3 of the posts.
As I've said, I'm no expert on such matter, so I am not particularly agreeing with one side or the other.

What I SEE is that HER "FLIP" (or lip, whichever) SEEMS TO BE MORE OF A FLIP THAN ANYONE ELSE'S FLIP or JUST AS MUCH.
Therefore, why make so much fuss about this??

But now I also do sympathize with this "Justice for All" type of reasoning some of you are pursuing this subject with.

HOWEVER, what really irks me is not the controversy itself, but HOW SOME OF YOU ARE PHRASING IT.

I think this one loser of all losers called Kim "UGLY LIPPER" for his/her first post, which is simply uncalled for and I can only assume that this person must root for a rival skater.

As in my previous post, there is a clear difference between "she lips" and "she is a lipper."
The former might be stating the fact whereas latter seems more like a malicious accusation, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE PANEL OF EXPERTS (judges and commentators alike) HAS DEEMED IT PASSABLE FOR A FLIP.
Click to expand...

The problem with "justice for all" is these people aren't judging Kim's flip fairly. Let me say it this way they are comparing Kim's possible (minimal) lip to the worst examples of flutzes and the worst examples of Lutzs.

IF you want to say the judges are being fair, why don't you analayze EVERYONE's lutz and flip as closely as your looking at Kim's. The one poster had a good point that if you look at Buttle's flip it looks exactly like Kim's, and Buttle I don't believe has ever been called for a Lip either.

So it's clear that the judges are really only going after the obvious cases. And so if your case isn't obvious, you don't get called. It's the same justice for EVERYONE.
 
Mafke said:
Partly this is the Karl Rove strategy - find your opponent's strength and try to turn it into a weakness by unrelenting unfounded criticism, making up evidence when necessary.

No one who knows anything thinks Kim has a lip.
Click to expand...

If xxxBOTS want to talk about politics, please go to 'politics' section.
:bow::bow:
 
HCOSurfer said:
A flip with a slight outside edge should have received an ! because she did not take off with the right edge.
Click to expand...

The "right" edge for a Flip is not exclusively an inside edge. What do you not understand about that?

A "!" would be for a Flip that is like 15-30 degrees on the outside, and an "e" would be for a Plushenko, Arakawa, Verner, or (formerly) Miki Ando Flip.
 
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Blades of Passion said:
The "right" edge for a Flip is not exclusively an inside edge. What do you not understand about that?
Click to expand...

Really? If it doesn't matter what edge the flip is one, then why'd they introduce the "!" and "e" marks? I'm pretty sure that a flip must take off of an inside edge.
 
Hsuhs said:
I've tried to find a clear definition of a flip jump on the isu site, and I coudn't.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone has ever found the definition on the ISU site. The other thing I have never found on the ISU site are instructions to the technical callers about just what they should be looking for when they call a jump a Lutz or a flip.

But the ISU rules do specify what the penalty should be for a flip or a Lutz that takes off from the "wrong edge." In other words, the ISU (in its wisdom) officially recognizes a "Lutz taking off from a wrong edge." It is classified by the ISU as a Lutz, with a specific penalty for improper technique.

(I'm not saying that this is a good thing, just that the ISU rules are quite explicit about it. Maybe the rules should be changed, but that's a separate discussion.)

FLIP JUMP - A toe-pick assisted jump taken off from the back inside edge of one foot and landed on the back outside edge of the opposite foot.
Click to expand...
The ISU rules have an explicit rule about the landing, too: you can land any jump on any edge.

So I think the ISU is being quite up front about the fact that, for better or worse, it is NOT going by the defintions that you find in skating books.
 
HCOSurfer said:
Really? If it doesn't matter what edge the flip is one, then why'd they introduce the "!" and "e" marks?
Click to expand...

Because it's about the degree of the edge?

Yes, the textbook definition of a Flip is an inside edge. But being flat or slightly outside is just fine. A common school of thought regarding the Flip is that you want to have a straight edge. It only makes sense that someone might waver slightly to the outside while going in on a straight edge. It's just fine.

The penalty for doing a Lip is really just there as an aesthetic deduction. People would rather not see the Flip pressing down onto a deep outside edge like a Lutz because it muddles the technique. I've seen no arguments from anyone that doing a Lip actually makes the Flip jump easier (whereas it is common thought that flutzing makes the Lutz a bit easier). Which is why, imo, the penalties regarding these mistakes should be something like a half point deduction for a clear Lip or a minor flutz, and a whole point deduction for a clear flutz.
 
Blades of Passion said:
The penalty for doing a Lip is really just there as an aesthetic deduction. People would rather not see the Flip pressing down onto a deep outside edge like a Lutz because it muddles the technique. I've seen no arguments from anyone that doing a Lip actually makes the Flip jump easier (whereas it is common thought that flutzing makes the Lutz a bit easier). Which is why, imo, the penalties regarding these mistakes should be something like a half point deduction for a clear Lip or a minor flutz, and a whole point deduction for a clear flutz.
Click to expand...
I think I once upon a time read a post by Joe where he said that lipping actually makes the jump easier. I think he said it's a timing issue. That the Flip is a difficult jump because of the difficult timing.The better and more precise your timing on the Flip (entry, take-off) - the higher is the chance to really hit a good inside edge and not wobble on your edge.

Correct me if am wrong on this, I think Joe wrote this about six months ago...
 
Medusa said:
I think I once upon a time read a post by Joe where he said that lipping actually makes the jump easier. I think he said it's a timing issue. That the Flip is a difficult jump because of the difficult timing.The better and more precise your timing on the Flip (entry, take-off) - the higher is the chance to really hit a good inside edge and not wobble on your edge.

Correct me if am wrong on this, I think Joe wrote this about six months ago...
Click to expand...

This would be a good argument if it weren't for the fact that the Flip would become a harder jump for some skaters if you told them they had to be on the outside edge to do it. I believe that for certain skaters lipping the jump is what comes more naturally but, on average, it's not something which does make it an easier jump.
 
Bennett said:
I am not an expert of UR, but I think that stamina would have been a factor as you mentioned. At the previous night's interview, she said that she would be happy if she could just complete the program the next day because she felt tired. She is extremely humble in any interviews and understates her ambitions. So I would not take every word of hers here just as they are; but she indeed looked tired during the straight line steps.
Click to expand...
Is that interview online somewhere? I'd like to see it. (If it is, please post it in the Mirai topic in the Edge.)


ETA: I liked Mirai's costume in the SP. She didn't sell the choreography enough, though given her choreography in the Coppelia LP last year, I'm certain she'll improve it. I didn't "get" her LP, but that too may have been fatigue related.


It was good to see that Susanna Poykio is well on her way to recovery from her injury of last year. :clap:
 
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Holy crap. After all of this Yu-Na flip/lip fuss, I don't want to even watch her skate ever again. Uber fans scare the crap out of me.
 
Mafke said:
Henceforth I'm treating "Yu na lips" as an abbreviation for "I have no idea what I'm talking about but if I throw the jargon around with enough self-confidence and keep repeating it long enough someone will believe me sooner or later."

Partly this is the Karl Rove strategy - find your opponent's strength and try to turn it into a weakness by unrelenting unfounded criticism, making up evidence when necessary.

No one who knows anything thinks Kim has a lip.
Click to expand...


Alas! Their strategy began to work:


fairly4 said:
Yes, Yu-na made some minor mistakes but it didn't affect the program.
I noticed them to but the quality of the overall out did those mistakes.
Click to expand...


No, Yuna didn't make any mistake with her Flip jumps in this competition. They were not certainly one of Yuna's best Flip jumps but still could be called textbook jumps. This is in that her left blade traced a nearly straight line right before the toe-pick, meaning that the spin (or the torque) of the jump was not assisted by the natural pre-rotation (as is blatantly so in Mao's unorthodox Flip) nor was it hampered by the counter-rotation (as a correct Lutz should be).

Ironically, those YouTube clips of Yuna's Flip reveal this fact very well. Also, in her LP, before the toe-pick, her left blade's gliding slightly to the left only implies that she was maintaining the blade in neutral (i.e. upright) position; if the edge were either severely outside or inside, the blade could not quite glide sideways.

What does the outside edge or the inside edge have to do with (toe) jumps? What does it really mean in terms of skating in general? The "Yuna's lip club" really seems to have no idea of what they are talking about.
 
puhijun said:
Mao's Flip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2psY7pMF_8

Does Mao lip?
In my understanding, Mao doesn't lip?

(I really want to finish this "she-lips-she-flutz," but then I guess I'm starting again, sorry :bow::bow:)
Click to expand...


Mao definitely lips. From a "Yu-na lips" point of view.

Actually Mao's flip has changed. Her flip was very deep inside edge take-off until last season. Deep inside edge is for prerotation so it's not a good quality flip jump.

Mao's flip 2008 World
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsp81rzUk98
Mao's edge is first out and then going into inside. The same way as her flutz.

Since Mao has been working on her flutz this season, her flip has changed. And it looks close to flat. She still has this hip movement but it's bette flip than before.

However peple who keep insisting that Yu-na's flip is lip will say Mao's flip is lip.
 
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