Ladies Short Program

[Skye]

I think for most of these skaters, it's not holding the spins long enough that's giving them the lower levels.

True. It's because the programs are so jam-packed with one element after another the skaters usually rush through them, and when the speed of spins/spirals is not fast enough you end up with revolutions/seconds less than required. This is why even though Mao and Caroline have better positions they sometimes get lower levels than Kimmie or Yu-Na. One thing that puzzles me is that Yukari though a very good spinner seems to often "opt" for spins with lower levels by leaving out additional features.

 

[feraina]

If you want to say about the TES score, I need to say the worst victim who is downgraded than her skating is Yu-na now.

I'm not sure I parsed what you were trying to say -- are you saying that her score is held down more than anyone else's? Erm... :scratch:

Yu-na got 30.40(COC)/34.90(COR)/34.90(GPF), and
CZ got 30.20(COA)/36.40(COC)/36.50(GPF)
Even Yu-na's clean program in COR, her TES is lower than CZ's COC score.
Is there anyone who thinks CZ is a way better in her skating than Yuna's now?

Not generally, no, I don't think anyone has asserted that. But just to be clear, we're talking specifically about the short programs on the day that they're skated, right? That's what the scores are supposed to reflect, right?

So I'm still puzzling over the protocols (I should really get a life, lol). At CoC, where Yu-na made the same 3/1 mistake and Caroline completed her 3/3, Yu-na lost 7 points on that mistake. Her 3Lz definitely garners higher GOE than Caroline's flutz, and it gains back about 2.4 (as happened at CoC). Her slss went from level 1 to level 3 in CoR, and presumably she got level 3 again here. Caroline's slss was level 2 at SA but went down to level 1 in CoC (appropriately, I think), and possibly she got a level 1 this time too. So there Yu-na gained back about 1.4. The spins were level 4 for both, and normally Caroline would have a slight overall advantage in the GOE's, but maybe today Yu-na caught up, so let's say they're even on those. On the spiral, Caroline gained .8 on Yu-na in the SP (both level 4) at CoC, but in the LP, Caroline lost .9 (hers got called level 2). On average, maybe they're even on the spiral. For the 2A, they garnered the same score in the CoC SP, but in the LP, Yu-na gained 1.4, so say worst-case, something similar happened here.

Actually, all that add up to Yu-na gaining back 5.2 of the 7.0 she lost by botching the combo jump. In today's SP, her TES was 1.6 lower, so not a whole lot different. Maybe she improved on her GOE's here and there, while Caroline stayed even or lost bits and pieces here and there.

 

[Bennett]

True. It's because the programs are so jam-packed with one element after another the skaters usually rush through them, and when the speed of spins/spirals is not fast enough you end up with revolutions/seconds less than required. This is why even though Mao and Caroline have better positions they sometimes get lower levels than Kimmie or Yu-Na. One thing that puzzles me is that Yukari though a very good spinner seems to often "opt" for spins with lower levels by leaving out additional features.

Oh, that sounds intersting. I wasn't observing Yukari close enough to notice that. What kinds of additional features she could have done?

 

[feraina]

Yukari got level 4 on her change-foot combination spin today. I'm guessing she got level 3 on the layback and flying camel spins. She doesn't have the flexibility for a good Biellmann position, so she can't use that feature -- that really limits her ability to achieve level 4. I also didn't see an obvious change of edge in the layback...

 

[BelleFilleYuna]

Wow, look at the number of the posts in this thread!!
It almost took me an hour to read the whole posts through.
Same old feud but I must admit I enjoyed it.
So who said Ladies are boring??

 

[feraina]

Wow, look at the number of the posts in this thread!!

Yeah, more than twice in the men's thread, and more than the other three disciplines combined.

So who said Ladies are boring??

Not me! I never even bothered to participate in the Edge thread that alleged that ladies are boring. Each to his/her own!

 

[ChrisH]

That was a very entertaining short program and it easily beat looking for holiday gifts. Speaking of gifts, there were no falls but the hand skating by the favorites was oh so generous.

This constant reference to the season SB is way overdone. You are forgetting she has not done any clean SPs this year. So saying a SB is wrong if she isnt clean doesnt make sense, since she hasnt done a clean short this year yet.

It's not just Kim's season best, it's also the highest scoring short program score in this ladies GP season. That a program with a huge mistake outscored a strong and clean program understandably has people shaking their heads. Kim also set the GP season high for PCS in spite of the major mistake.

Yes, Kim's spins were noticeably better in this program. However, that only partly makes up for the difference for her two-hands down on the 3F and the singling of her 3T vs. only singling the 2A at Cup of Russia. Kim did have good levels on her non-jump elements at CoR too. Kim's TES and PCS should've been a slightly lower, IMO.

OTOH, Caroline's short program looked even better in the slow motion close-up replays. Her PCS should've been higher. Not that it'll likely make a difference, but Caroline should be skating last in the free skate.

 

[ChrisH]

I don't especially mind the lack of flexibility, as I mind the lack of stretch, turning out of the knee, pointing of the toe. These are things that used to really matter in figure skating, especially back when school figures were still part of it.

When I was watching a YouTube of Kim's Lark Ascending and enjoying it, I was also thinking that after watching Caroline's positions, the flaws of others just stands out so much more. I totally get what you've been saying about Asada's posture having improved.

I did think, as I was watching Caroline, that this time she really held both inside and outside edges of the camel spin (in the change-foot-combination spin right before her spiral sequence) at least 3 revolutions each -- I think not holding them long enough, especially the inside edge, was the culprit of her level 3's before. And I also noticed that she held the upright (last) position of her flying sit spin for longer, maybe this was the missing "feature" before.

Wow, so you can make heads or tails of the spin levels. I'm still preoccupied with figuring Caroline's jump technique.

 

[kikakiks]

I'm more puzzled with Mao's TES.
At Skate Canada, she got 30.8 with 3-3 mistake.
At TEB, she got 27.5 with 3-1.
And now she got 31 with 3-3 mistake and without 3Lz??
Well. Wow. Hmm. What a score.
I'm pretty much sure that affected Yuna's TES too.

this is the main point of it all!!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS SCANDALOUS!!!!! She is just few cents. of pint below the two caros!! And they were the only ones with three triples!!! they should be first and second (even though with less points difference!)
I am watching th etaped competition right now and yu-na and Mao were not "on" AT ALL!
this is a scandal....I am starting to hate figure skating....I believe tonight points will be given regardless of the performance. the podium finishers have already been decided by pcs: Yu-na, Mao, Meissner (meissner???pcs????gosh, there must be in the judging panel an american jusge who really hates Zhang and loves meisser)

 

[mskater93]

From a PCS standpoint, unfortunately Meissner IS stronger than Zhang right now. She's faster and just a bit more finished (even with the hyper extended arms) and has more sure, definitive, and deeper edges. Give Zhang time to build strength from a precocious 14 year old to a polished senior lady with speed and power and she'll take Meissner down...

 

[netnuts]

after watching Kimmie Meisner's short, I believe she's grossly undermarked as well. She was very good, fast and crispy... This program also suits her well. I wouldn't mind putting her ahead of zhang if reputation is a factor...

Kim and Mao were grossly, grossly overmarked.

 

[CalebsMom]

Mao's flow

I just watched Mao's SP, and wow~ Even I'm a huge Yu-Na fan, I'll have to admit Mao's skating is literally "seamless". I think this performance is her best when it comes to the "flow". Yes, Mao's got issues to solve with her jump techniques but there's something about her that attracts the audience's attention. After watching her SP, I'm okay with her scores even I still think she was overmarked.

 

[slutskayafan21]

after watching Kimmie Meisner's short, I believe she's grossly undermarked as well. She was very good, fast and crispy... This program also suits her well. I wouldn't mind putting her ahead of zhang if reputation is a factor...

Kim and Mao were grossly, grossly overmarked.

Meissners 3/3 was downgraded. Her flip was also deducted for lipping I think. That being said I agree her score was low. Not her PCS, but perhaps her TES. Maybe some of her spins were not top level,sometimes her layback is graded a level 1 and that hurts her when it happens.

 

[McWicked]

I couldnt agree more!!! Kimmie was undermarked!!!

 

[zigzig]

Kimmie also had a slight bobble on her spiral so depending on how strict the caller was, that could have also affected her TES.

 

[fourclover]

That was a very entertaining short program and it easily beat looking for holiday gifts. Speaking of gifts, there were no falls but the hand skating by the favorites was oh so generous.

It's not just Kim's season best, it's also the highest scoring short program score in this ladies GP season. That a program with a huge mistake outscored a strong and clean program understandably has people shaking their heads. Kim also set the GP season high for PCS in spite of the major mistake.

Yes, Kim's spins were noticeably better in this program. However, that only partly makes up for the difference for her two-hands down on the 3F and the singling of her 3T vs. only singling the 2A at Cup of Russia. Kim did have good levels on her non-jump elements at CoR too. Kim's TES and PCS should've been a slightly lower, IMO.

OTOH, Caroline's short program looked even better in the slow motion close-up replays. Her PCS should've been higher. Not that it'll likely make a difference, but Caroline should be skating last in the free skate.

But Yu-na's "major mistake" has a certain number of limited points allotted that affects her score so if you take away those certain points away from her otherwise perfect skate you get what she got on her SP. Maybe it was a little higher but not by much.

And I did see Caroline's SP. Although there were no mistakes the overall quality of her skate was FAR inferior then Yu-na's. So if you add up the numbers there you have her score. No way am I putting Caroline's SP performance at GPF above Yu-na's.

 

[wonbinfan86]

But Yu-na's "major mistake" has a certain number of limited points allotted that affects her score so if you take away those certain points away from her otherwise perfect skate you get what she got on her SP. Maybe it was a little higher but not by much.

And I did see Caroline's SP. Although there were no mistakes the overall quality of her skate was FAR inferior then Yu-na's. So if you add up the numbers there you have her score. No way am I putting Caroline's SP performance at GPF above Yu-na's.

:thumbsup:

 

[bibi]

I'm a big Mao fan and like also a lot YuNa skating, but for those who think Mao was overmarked, here's what I think...
Mao got approximatly 59 points and YuNa got 64. Mao missed the 3lutz which has a base value of 6 points. So if she would have done it, she would have scored 65 points. Why couldn't she get that score with the 3-3 all rotated and YuNa, 64 with a 3-1 ?!
Anyway, I wish them all good luck for the LP!!! I'm getting so excited!! CAn't wait!!!

 

[cassieandcheetah]

What other junior skates like Caroline, or skated like Caroline?

um...I was talking about how Caroline compares to the other senior skaters....not to the other junior skaters. who cares when she's competing in the GPS???

 

[Bennett]

Yukari got level 4 on her change-foot combination spin today. I'm guessing she got level 3 on the layback and flying camel spins. She doesn't have the flexibility for a good Biellmann position, so she can't use that feature -- that really limits her ability to achieve level 4. I also didn't see an obvious change of edge in the layback...

I heard that Yukari had a Biellmann when she was younger, but that it affected her back and she refrained from using it.