Magic Zambonis

[Sam-Skwantch]

Let's discuss the phenomenon of PCS increasing after each and everytime we see the Zamboni resurface the ice. It is true that in most major international championships the first groups are in fact less talented and as the event unfolds the skill level and performances will likely improve. Does this alone explain it or is there sort of a ranking system in place similar to what boxers have. For them I think you get a ranking and can only challenge up so many places before moving to the top ranked opponents even if you are better then them.

Do people believe the hype of skating in the final group to be more pressure packed and therefore untraceable points due to the atmosphere are quietly added in. Are judges perhaps swept away too and the skaters benefit from it for less than nefarious reasons. A sort of excitement factor that's bound to slip it's way into any judged sporting event. For example I know if I were a judge in the 2014 WC ladies event I would have been floored by the electricity in the building when the last few groups in the SP skated.

Or is it all just the magic from seeing the Zamboni ends up exciting everyone from fans,skaters, and judges. Let's not forget that no matter how magical the Zamboni may be its always possible that this could happen: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6jViWlrxZ...AAB4/Qp742Uv8VKE/s1600-h/zamboni+explodes.jpg That is definetly exciting but clearly not good exciting.

To keep this thread more fun I suggest including cool photos of Magic Zambonis like this in your posts
http://worth1000.s3.amazonaws.com/submissions/788500/788624_fa50_625x1000.jpg

 

[karne]

As a serious side note, a lot of judges and officials use Zamboni breaks to stand up, stretch their legs, get the blood flowing again, grab a hot cup of coffee, maybe a snack. So, it is not inconceivable that immediately after a Zamboni break the judges are more refreshed and alert - ESPECIALLY in the case of a long group, like the ladies' contest this year that went for seven hours.

Judges are only human!

Aside: I have never seen a Zamboni explode before! I have seen one take an unplanned detour into the boards.

 

[NaVi]

1. Later skaters are usually better because the system wants the better skaters to skate later... if a good skater is not skating later it's usually their fault.
2. While it's not as bad as the old system, the judges have to leave a little bit of room for skaters who may be better.

 

[andromache]

1. Later skaters are usually better because the system wants the better skaters to skate later... if a good skater is not skating later it's usually their fault.
2. While it's not as bad as the old system, the judges have to leave a little bit of room for skaters who may be better.

But under the "objective" points system of COP, there should be no reason to have to leave room for later skaters, right? Simply apply the points as needed, and let the chips fall where they may. This understandably wasn't possible under ordinals. COP ought to be an improvement in that regard, but the most glaring and egregious example of holding down skaters in earlier groups is Mao's Sochi LP. I understand that the better skaters tend to skate later, but I don't see any fairness in penalizing skaters in the LP who didn't skate well in the SP. They've already been penalized for their poor SP skate, and the early group penalization in the LP is simply ridiculous. Really demonstrates the failure of the judges to apply COP fairly.

And here is a magic zamboni: http://www.tabletpcbuzz.com/forum/uploaded/WNewquay/20044227751_zamboni1.jpg

ETA: I will start paying closer attention to the zamboni breaks in future Ice Network feeds to see if I start feeling more thrilled due to the magic zamboni factor . (Unfortunately for most events it's usually around 5 am for me and I end up falling asleep....)

 

[NaVi]

But under the "objective" points system of COP, there should be no reason to have to leave room for later skaters, right?

I don't see how this is possible... the judges don't have a time machine....

 

[OS]

Nice thread. I'd like to introduce my fav Zamboni. I have named him Ewan, he is Italian, slim, red and sexy and lives in Dortmund Germany. He has a great smile with excellent dentistry never had the need for braces. For a Zamboni, he is pretty fast, neat and sparkling. His husky noise is soothing enough to cleanse all the awful Carmen/POTO/Firebird/Scratchy music from previous sessions, and is pretty effective at rebooting aural sense back to neutrality. Unfortunately he has told me long time ago they don't have the power to reset judges humanistic urge to score the final flight of skaters like the end of a Sotheby auction; inflation over evaluation and all. It doesn't always happen of course, some happen to be very knowledgeable people that use good moral conscious judgement, but when they are bidding against those with ulterior motives and skewed views, things can get crazy and wacky.

Actually the very fact such tendency exist today despite the absolute numerical system makes the COP vulnerable to manipulation. It means theoretically any judge can have an excuse to mark earlier skater lower if they chose, and final flight skater higher if they want to, since it has been now been given as a standard believe. This makes the competition unfair.

I don't think COP can be truly be objective unless all the scores can be supported by some measurable hard data to support these analysis. Or even have multiple machines judge TES as some form of reference points in contrast with human beings.

 

[YesWay]

1. Later skaters are usually better because the system wants the better skaters to skate later... if a good skater is not skating later it's usually their fault.

Yes. I think it's less (!) to do with skaters in later groups being given higher PCS scores - and more (!) to do with skaters being in the later groups because are they are higher point scorers.

And also this:

In my view, that is a gross exaggeration. The kind that people spout when their favourite skater is "held back" in PCS just because they "skated in earlier group", or they don't have "reputation", or they're not the judges' "favourite" etc etc.

While I do believe a bit of that does go on - I also believe it's mostly sour grapes nonsense and it's nowhere near "90%". Even when it does happen I am of the view that it's more often "consistency" at work, not "reputation" (which is almost defensible because a consistent skater is surely showing more skill than an inconsistent one?)

I wish the J-sport figure skating TV programs were available translated outside of Japan. They have recently broadcast the last Russian, Canadian, American etc nationals, with commentary from people like Yukiko Okabe.

Yukiko is an ISU judge and technical controller, so the information and insights she (and the other J-sport FS commentators) give on each skater's performances, are absolutely priceless, and real eye-openers regarding how skaters are scored. She highlights things that laymen wouldn't notice, and you get to hear exactly how ISU judges and tech specialists think, what they look for, how/why/where skaters win or lose points for their technical elements, GoE, PCS components etc etc.

If everyone was able to hear that kind of commentary, for every competition... I think there'd be a lot less conspiracy theories, outrage, sour grapes, fan wars etc etc...!

 

[OS]

It have always thought the LP flight session is designed to make organisation/judge's life easier to rank skaters than for skater's convenience. They can always try to shake things up by ensure true randomness of skating orders in the LP as well. Not to announce skating order ahead of time, but have them on stand by, and draw the next skater as the competition happen, to see if the judges are that confident in their ability to get it right the first time and the credibility of the COP treat everyone equally. It will make the spectating more interesting as well.. as you have to stand by to watch the whole competition, and your skater can be called up anytime.

I do have to laugh at those who think all human beings are the same, have the same moral codes, emotions, knowledge, competencies, cultural sensitivity, literacy as one another and behave exactly the same way under various duress/pressures. The chances are if you walk into a room of highly educated successful investment bankers, at least a few would been investigated for insider trading, a few would have even been guilty. Instead we just go no no no... this kind of thing can't possibly going on AT ALL because they are so intelligent capable people who can explain themselves well in public.

 

[Interspectator]

It have always thought the LP flight session is designed to make organisation/judge's life easier to rank skaters than for skater's convenience. They can always try to shake things up by ensure true randomness of skating orders in the LP as well. Not to announce skating order ahead of time, but have them on stand by, and draw the next skater as the competition happen, to see if the judges are that confident in their ability to get it right the first time and the credibility of the COP treat everyone equally. It will make the spectating more interesting as well.. as you have to stand by to watch the whole competition, and your skater can be called up anytime.

I do have to laugh at those who think all human beings are the same, have the same moral codes, emotions, knowledge, competencies, cultural sensitivity, literacy as one another and behave exactly the same way under various duress/pressures. The chances are if you walk into a room of highly educated successful investment bankers, at least a few would been investigated for insider trading, a few would have even been guilty. Instead we just go no no no... this kind of thing can't possibly going on AT ALL because they are so intelligent capable people who can explain themselves well in public.

This would be horrible for skaters. They time themselves in their warm-ups and to suddenly be told, you're up in 10 minutes...won't go well.

 

[Mathman]

It have always thought the LP flight session is designed to make organisation/judge's life easier to rank skaters than for skater's convenience….

More than that, I think it is for the convenience of the television networks that want to show only the top few skaters, but still want to show them live.

They can always try to shake things up by ensure true randomness of skating orders in the LP as well. Not to announce skating order ahead of time, but have them on stand by, and draw the next skater as the competition happen, to see if the judges are that confident in their ability to get it right the first time and the credibility of the COP treat everyone equally. It will make the spectating more interesting as well.. as you have to stand by to watch the whole competition, and your skater can be called up anytime.

That might be fair, but the skaters would be nervous wrecks waiting and dreading. Sort of like at school. You know the teacher is going to call on someone next -- but please God don't let it be me!

 

[OS]

This would be horrible for skaters. They time themselves in their warm-ups and to suddenly be told, you're up in 10 minutes...won't go well.

How about give skaters at least 30 mins warning when they are due to skate. The point is the judges are in the blind, they are not sure who is to due to skate and when. I personally think this will make the judging more conservative, fairer and more careful than the system of what we what at the moment which can just breed complacency, inflation towards the end and something else.

More than that, I think it is for the convenience of the television networks that want to show only the top few skaters, but still want to show them live.

True, but wouldn't the uncertainty / anticipation means more audience will watch longer, and more air time for advertisements? They get more returns for investment.

That might be fair, but the skaters would be nervous wrecks waiting and dreading. Sort of like at school. You know the teacher is going to call on someone next -- but please God don't let it be me!

Totally... but it will be like the ancient times at the gladiator rink principle. Is it me? *shivers*, *beat chest*, *arghh why do i have to follow Hanyu*. Do it or Die!

Very exciting!

 

[xibsuarz]

True, but wouldn't the uncertainty / anticipation means more audience will watch longer, and more air time for advertisements? They get more returns for investment.

The advertisement thing would be good when the TV station is willing to broadcast the whole event, unfortunately, some choose not to.

 

[Mathman]

The advertisement thing would be good when the TV station is willing to broadcast the whole event, unfortunately, some choose not to.

I think what they would do is tape all the performances and then show the tapes in whatever order would create the best "reality show TV."

Now what typically happens, for U.S. television, is that they show one or two of the best performances from the earlier flights, then show the final flight live. In the U.S., they cannot attract enough advertising to put on a show lasting more than two hours. Typically they show men's and pairs in one segment (they think no one will watch that), and then ladies and dance in another segment at a better time.

 

[rollerblade]

Aside: I have never seen a Zamboni explode before! I have seen one take an unplanned detour into the boards.

Ah hah! Today I learned karne never played Plants vs Zombies.

 

[Layback11]

This is Magical Zamboni of Doom and Also Other Stuff: https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4040/4381259699_7aaf796c68.jpg How do you do that thing where you put links into words that are blue? I know, such eloquence! Sometimes I really suck at wording...

 

[jace93]

How about give skaters at least 30 mins warning when they are due to skate. The point is the judges are in the blind, they are not sure who is to due to skate and when. I personally think this will make the judging more conservative, fairer and more careful than the system of what we what at the moment which can just breed complacency, inflation towards the end and something else.




True, but wouldn't the uncertainty / anticipation means more audience will watch longer, and more air time for advertisements? They get more returns for investment.




Totally... but it will be like the ancient times at the gladiator rink principle. Is it me? *shivers*, *beat chest*, *arghh why do i have to follow Hanyu*. Do it or Die!

Very exciting!

The LP of ISU championship normally go on for at least 3h if not more... it would be so fair to the last skater having them seat trough all that time, always on edge, instead than relaxing and focusing :sarcasm: by the time they would be finally called on ice they would be a complete mess...

 

[Mathman]

How do you do that thing where you put links into words that are blue?

Go like this.

this[/url*]. (Remove asterisk.)

 

[karne]

They can always try to shake things up by ensure true randomness of skating orders in the LP as well. Not to announce skating order ahead of time, but have them on stand by, and draw the next skater as the competition happen, to see if the judges are that confident in their ability to get it right the first time and the credibility of the COP treat everyone equally.

This is truly one of the stupidest, most ridiculous suggestions I have ever heard on this forum. What happens when you get an event that goes for seven hours? Are you seriously asking the skaters to be ready to go and on edge for seven hours? How are you going to allow them to warm up? What if a skater gets hungry and needs to eat and then suddenly their name is called? Or if they are in the bathroom? Or if they are taking a nap as I know some of the skaters do?

This was not a well-thought-out suggestion.

True, but wouldn't the uncertainty / anticipation means more audience will watch longer, and more air time for advertisements? They get more returns for investment.

No, it would make figure skating totally unsellable as a live sporting event. It would be consigned to tape delay forever where the networks could cut the programs so that they can show the big names. And casual fans just won't have that patience. And also, air time for advertisements? Figure skating doesn't get many paid advertisements in their breaks in the US as it is!

Ah hah! Today I learned karne never played Plants vs Zombies.

Alas! It is so!

The main problem with the group breakdown as it stands at the moment is not that the groups cause problems - it is that the little flag next to the skater's name directly influences marks. Yes, I'm still spewing that Kovtun scored higher than Brendan in the Worlds SP, when it should not have been so!

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I wouldn't mind seeing five person groups and split up the order so that some of the top five are in the final group and some are in the groups before it. In an event like WC's you'd have people from every level on each of the groups. Everyone from the original "final flight" would all be in their own group. I think the TV people would disagree though

I actually don't mind the magical zboni effect at all. I believe skating in the final group comes with extra scrutiny. Especially in the FS.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

This is Magical Zamboni of Doom and Also Other Stuff: https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4040/4381259699_7aaf796c68.jpg How do you do that thing where you put links into words that are blue? I know, such eloquence! Sometimes I really suck at wording...

I thought that those people were balancing on the Zamboni at first

Love me some Zamboni pictures