Mao, is she really that great?

[Mathman]

Ya gotta admit. It's the way to beat the Zayak rule and get more points!! They don't have to be maximum; just enough to beat the field.

Hockdeyfan - Check out MM's post. I believe he wrote that Mao got 6.6 for the second lutz which was purported to be part of a combo. That included extra points.

The extra points were for doing a jump in the second half of the program. You get an extra 10%, so a Lutz in the first half of the program is worth 6.0 points, but the same jump in the second half is worth 6.6. So Mao did not get any extra points for a "combo," just the points for each Lutz separately.

As Hockeyfan says, Mao did not receive any penalty for not completing the combo, except that she lost the opportunity to add on more points by doing an extra jump.

As I think about it, I don't object to this rule. Calling the second solo Lutz a "combo" when it isn't, is awkward language, which the ISU could get around just by changing the language. All they have to say is, "If a skater successfully completes the first jump of a combo but not the second, the skater may also do her scheduled solo jump of the same type without risking a Zayak violation." That way it is presented as a revised interpretation of the Zayak rule, instead of making it sound like a way for skaters to cheat.

I think maybe the reason they do it this way is so as not to confuse the computer. The computer automatically keeps track of Zayak violations, but by punching in "combo" for the second attempt, the tech specialist can fool the computer into doing what he/she wants it to do, without writing new software.

Actually, I like this rule, except for the abuse of language. Otherwise, if a skater was unable to complete the second jump of her combo, she would be doubly penalize because later in her program she would just have to skate through the part where she had planned her solo jump, looking up at the ceiling with a panicked expression on her face and trying to improvise some sort of choreography on the spot.

Mathman

 

[soogar]

They should get rid of the Zayak rule and just limit the overall number of jumps performed in a program. Let the ladies do 7 3 lutzes.

 

[antmanb]

Mao did a 3 axle and 3-3 combo that were both heavily underrotated. I wouldn't go by Japanese Nationals unless you've seen it in person or on video b/c I suspect that they push their favorites heavily at Nats (just like they do in the US Nats as well).

I didn't think the lutz/loop combo was cheated, the flip/loop/toe was a little cheated...i forget whetehr on the loop or whether the triple toe was a bit toe axel-like.

I'm not a Mao non-fan at all. I think she's a precious little girl and a very good skater. However I just don't feel people are looking at this girl's skating realistically. People keep saying how she's going to kick MK's a$$ when they compete in COC but I feel she is a very long way from being a top senior. Compared to kids she's great, but she will be seen with different eyes when she competes against a seasoned senior skater like MK.

I haven't seen any footage of her recently so i can't really comment on now but the video i've seen of her Japanese nationals i thikn she really did show unbelievabale potential - an 11 year old landing all 6 triples plus a 3/3 and a 3/3/3 is a truly amazing things. Her perfromance there was not just a jump fest it showed the markings of a girl who understaood what choreography was and certainyl beyond her years at the time. At the time i found her slightly gangly look and jumpin bean style rather like a very young Michelle Kwan. If she has developped her skills since then i wouldn't be surprised if she has comparabkle presnetation skills to those of 14 year old Kwan.

My biggest fear for this girl is that before she has a chance to really challenge for the top of the ranks she'll either go through puberty and lose those jumps or will be crippled from the constant pounding required for those combinations and triple axels. Isn't she rumoured to have landed something like 3 different quads in practice too...that might be pure speculation but i thought i had heard that. If that is the case i wouldn't be surprised to hear that she is having hip replacements by the end of next season :frown2:

Ant

 

[hockeyfan228]

On the topic of Mao Asada, I think she's a prodigy. Whether, like in Math, others will catch up to her, whether the puberty monster will hit and how, and whether she still grows and at what incremental rate are the questions I have.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The extra points were for doing a jump in the second half of the program. You get an extra 10%, so a Lutz in the first half of the program is worth 6.0 points, but the same jump in the second half is worth 6.6. So Mao did not get any extra points for a "combo," just the points for each Lutz separately.

As Hockeyfan says, Mao did not receive any penalty for not completing the combo, except that she lost the opportunity to add on more points by doing an extra jump.

As I think about it, I don't object to this rule. Calling the second solo Lutz a "combo" when it isn't, is awkward language, which the ISU could get around just by changing the language. All they have to say is, "If a skater successfully completes the first jump of a combo but not the second, the skater may also do her scheduled solo jump of the same type without risking a Zayak violation." That way it is presented as a revised interpretation of the Zayak rule, instead of making it sound like a way for skaters to cheat.Mathman

I'm quite aware of the rules as I said before. I'm just not in agreement with them. I am not trying to put Mao down. As usual I'm writing about the scoring. In this particular case Mao did get extra points for a missed combo because the second solo lutz was done in a later part of the program. So it is not a complete penalty situation. Just do the missed combo later in the program.. and still get points. Am I correct?

My feeling about combos is that they are an entity in themselves. If one of the elements in a combo fails, there is no combo! Does that not make sense?

A combo is the sum of its parts. With a part missing it is no longer a combo. I think it is better to get riid of the Zayak rule or rate the combo as an entity without regard to its parts.

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

I'm quite aware of the rules as I said before. I'm just not in agreement with them. I am not trying to put Mao down. As usual I'm writing about the scoring. In this particular case Mao did get extra points for a missed combo because the second solo lutz was done in a later part of the program. So it is not a complete penalty situation. Just do the missed combo later in the program.. and still get points. Am I correct?

My feeling about combos is that they are an entity in themselves. If one of the elements in a combo fails, there is no combo! Does that not make sense?

A combo is the sum of its parts. With a part missing it is no longer a combo. I think it is better to get riid of the Zayak rule or rate the combo as an entity without regard to its parts.

Joe

The points Mao recieved (or any other skater in this situation) would have been the same whether they had treated the first lutz as the missed combo, or the second lutz as the missed combo.

I tend to agree with Mathman that I think the wording could be tweaked.

I would hate to see 1/2 of a combo (assuming it's intended as a two jump combo) to receive no points, because I think we would see less exciting combo attempts. That's my selfish perspective anyway.

DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I have to take a course in writing clearly.

I am aware of the rules! The combo by the ISU is a two jump thing. If you miss one of them you can still get some credit for the other. I really understand that.

Now,personally, and I mean only me, I read the combo to mean a specific element (singular) in two parts. Missing one part of that single element called combo is missing the whole thing..

Please disagree That's ok. I just want to go on record as a dissenter, and see the strategy of using combos.

Joe

 

[mzheng]

My biggest fear for this girl is that before she has a chance to really challenge for the top of the ranks she'll either go through puberty and lose those jumps or will be crippled from the constant pounding required for those combinations and triple axels. Isn't she rumoured to have landed something like 3 different quads in practice too...that might be pure speculation but i thought i had heard that. If that is the case i wouldn't be surprised to hear that she is having hip replacements by the end of next season :frown2:

Ant

If you compare her Japanese nationals two years ago(?) when she was 11 years old with the one shown in this JWC. You'd see she's grown much taller and filled a little more now. I watched that Japanese National's clip of her two seasons ago. Her jumps then were cheated especially those combs. But not those she landed in JWC this year.

I heard it is in common sense that when a very young skinny kid attempts the triple jumps, they usually cheated, but as long as they have the right technique, once they got museled up a little, the jumps will be clean almost 'automatically'. MK was able to land clean triples when she was 13/14 years old, she was then 4 foot xx(??) inches with 80lb. A kid with the same height but 60 or so lb would have difficut to land those jump cleanly.

IMO, all those little girls buncing into the scene after MK all have argubaly better presentation skill than MK at the same age. Tara, Sarah, Sasha, Kimmie, Katy, Mao, Kim, etc. MK was the one began the trend of kid girl competing in Senior level, the skaters came after her (and their coaches) seeing her success following the route starting develope their presentation skill at a very young age. Also the eliminting figures allow the young kid advance the level much more quickly, that's another reason why we diddn't see many young kid girl successful in senior level until MK.

 

[mzheng]

A combo is the sum of its parts. With a part missing it is no longer a combo. I think it is better to get riid of the Zayak rule or rate the combo as an entity without regard to its parts.

Joe

ITA.

It was said one of the bigest advantage in CoP is skater got credit for what actually finished on ice. A jump pass should be called either a one jump or a combo jump. If it's not completed as a comb as assumed in program sheet, then it should not be called as comb. Specialist should just enter a single 3Lutz as this is what he saw completed on ice. Let the computer take Zayak rule in action.

I'm also wondering, if a presumble comb spin, but some of the position not hold enough revolutions to be counted, will this be called comb spin?

ETA.
Read in another thread that some skater can do jump in both direction. IMO, the only reason to disregard the Zayak rules is when a skater do two same jumps in different direction. In that case they should get reward for both, in essens they are two different jump because the entries in different foot and rotate in different direction. Is it ture that the essense of Zayak rule is to forbide skaters got extra credit for the same skating skill?

 

[Mathman]

Ok, I get it now, Joe.

Well, if there were a separate category called "combos," then those jumps would have to be counted a separately. So then the Zayak rule would say, you can't repeat any triples jumps. (BTW, the rules also say that you can't try a jump over if you totally pop it the first time, either -- skaters used to do that all the time under the old rules. They would miss a jump early in the program, then throw it in at the end to get extra points -- or maybe just to prove that they can do it after all, like Midori Ito in the 1992 Olympics.)

Then in a separate category you would have combos. Say you could do two combos and could not repeat the same jumps in the combos. So you could do maybe something like 3Lz/3T, 3F/3Lo, then the five solo triples and a double Axel.

Hmm. In effect, this is quite a bit like what we jhave now, except you get an extra jumping pass.

Another idea I thought of is to have a separate category for "one-jump combos," only that's stupid, so they would be called "mono-combos," or just "mombos" for short. A skater could do 2 combos, 4 solos, and a mombo per program.

MM

 

[mzheng]

(BTW, the rules also say that you can't try a jump over if you totally pop it the first time, either -- skaters used to do that all the time under the old rules. They would miss a jump early in the program, then throw it in at the end to get extra points -- or maybe just to prove that they can do it after all, like Midori Ito in the 1992 Olympics.)

MM

There is difference. In old system, if you messed on a jump (combo or no combo) you don't get any credit. So you can kept retrying as long as you are not violating Zayak rules -- that means the most credit you can get for a lady w/o 3axel is 7 triples. In new system since you still get some credit even if you fall on a jump. Therefor the limitation on jump passes (7 of them with one must having axel type). They make sense in each of their own way. But, IMO, there is no hole of Zayak rule in old system, but there is a hole leave in new system. Like the scenario with Mao's JWC LP disscussed.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Another idea I thought of is to have a separate category for "one-jump combos," only that's stupid, so they would be called "mono-combos," or just "mombos" for short. A skater could do 2 combos, 4 solos, and a mombo per program.MM

I love it - a one jump combo. that'l be ok with me. I think we should borrow from NASCAR and put up a red flag everytime there is a mombo so that the audience knows the skater is just refueling, and not expecting the second jump.

Joe

 

[Crizzy]

They should get rid of the Zayak rule and just limit the overall number of jumps performed in a program. Let the ladies do 7 3 lutzes.

I don't know sooger. What about the flutzers??? Then they'll be doing 7 3 flutzes

 

[soogar]

I don't know sooger. What about the flutzers??? Then they'll be doing 7 3 flutzes

Maybe if they chose to do 7 of them, they might take off on the right edge on some of them