Men - Short Program

[KKonas]

I think what people are outraged about is the fact than Patrick skated terribly yet received a high score nonetheless.

In any sport the scoring system must reward good performance and penalize bad. Looking at the protocols to see exactly how Patrick's awful performance managed to add up to so many points is just a further indictment of the scoring system -- and, indeed, of the sport itself.

Exactly. And it's a perfect example of why many sportswriters don't consider figure skating a sport. No one really questions that Chan is a fine skater, but falling 3 times in a Short Program only 2 min 40 sec long and getting high PC scores stretches credulity. Can't see how anyone could consider it a good performance.

 

[mystichaze]

Who is Albert? Or did you mean Alban?

 

[skatinginbc]

I was distracted at that precise moment with when two people required my immediate attention and I haven't been able to review what happened on tape. I didn't see, what do you expect me to say? In any event, I am not alone here in saying I am not sure re: the 3rd fall in case you haven't noticed. A regular poster here who reviewed the youtube clip posted here to say he/she believes the element was already completed and contradicted your admant observation.

When the protocol comes out and the panel determined the fall wasn't part of the element, would you then apologize for your very impolite and accusatory dismeanor?

Blame me if you want, kill me if you will, but I think I made a wrong call. I watched it again, and I realized that the straight line step sequence I thought he had completed did not quite reach the other end of the ring. So the two step sequences I thought he had were actually just one complex sequence. In other words, I think he did fall on the required element. Kill me. Kill me.

 

[Blades of Passion]

When the protocol comes out and the panel determined the fall wasn't part of the element, would you then apologize for your very impolite and accusatory dismeanor?

Hardly impolite. Accusatory, yes, and necessarily so given the comments being made. I certainly would not apologize if the scenario you speak of comes to pass; if the judges didn't mark Chan down on his footwork sequence they were incorrect. I do not put up blatantly incorrect rulings and believe them to be the ultimate truth just because they are "official".

 

[wallylutz]

Exactly. And it's a perfect example of why many sportswriters don't consider figure skating a sport.

I see no need to cater to a bunch of mostly heterosexist sportswriters who will not bother with this sport whatsoever even when the result is determined using a clock. In fact, I am pleased they don't trivialize our sport to the same level as one that openly cheers fist fights on ice which of course makes juicy stories for these writers. If that is deemed a "real sport", be my guest. Don't believe me? Then please name a woman who can be accepted as a commentator on any of such "real / money making professional sport".

Thankfully, the status and prestige of this sport is not dependent on the opinion of such narrow minded people. In fact, IOC is about to approve a team based event for 2014 Olympics whereas some of these "real sport" is not even in the Olympics.

 

[skatinginbc]

Hardly impolite. Accusatory, yes, and necessarily so given the comments being made. I certainly would not apologize if the scenario you speak of comes to pass; if the judges didn't mark Chan down on his footwork sequence they were incorrect. I do not put up blatantly incorrect rulings and believe them to be the ultimate truth just because they are "official".

Now, don't fight. I am the bad one. Kill me.

 

[wallylutz]

Blame me if you want, kill me if you will, but I think I made a wrong call. I watched it again, and I realized that the straight line step sequence I thought he had completed did not quite reach the other end of the ring. So the two step sequences I thought he had were actually just one complex sequence. In other words, I think he did fall on the required element. Kill me. Kill me.

Again, I missed it. Could well be a RE, then again, others weren't sure either. Intuitively, it would seem more plausible that it was a RE than not b/c I don't think Chen would have beat Oda by just one point with a Quad whereas Oda did not have one.

 

[skatinginbc]

Again, I missed it. Could well be a RE, then again, others weren't sure either. Intuitively, it would seem more plausible that it was a RE than not b/c I don't think Chen would have beat Oda by just one point with a Quad whereas Oda did not have one.

Thank you for sparing my life. Thanks.

 

[chuckm]

I think what people are outraged about is the fact than Patrick skated terribly yet received a high score nonetheless.

In any sport the scoring system must reward good performance and penalize bad. Looking at the protocols to see exactly how Patrick's awful performance managed to add up to so many points is just a further indictment of the scoring system -- and, indeed, of the sport itself.

Yes! Patrick was scored as if he had a few minor bobbles that you could hardly notice. But his falls were HUGE and very disruptive, and the fall on the footwork even more so, since Patrick is supposedly the king of footwork.

It's insulting and demeaning to skaters who had clean or near-clean programs and yet finished below Patrick.

I do not believe he would have received such huge PCS scores if the competition had been outside Canada.

 

[Nadine]

Wow, very interesting & thought-provoking thread, I read all 18 pages, lol.

Once again I missed the Mens Sps. Why oh why couldn't the men have skated first this AM, not the women, and I'm going to miss everybody tomorrow as well, so won't be able to watch them all until either very late Sunday night or early Monday morning. *argh!* >8^<

And I just logged-onto IN and noticed they don't have it on on-demand yet, so I haven't been able to watch the replays, therefore I'm unable to post my own thoughts. However, if they post it by midnight I'll be able to do so, otherwise I will have to wait until late Sunday night or early Monday morning.

That said, may I say I'm pleased how it all turned out thus far! *clapping* Kevin Reynolds carries on the torch of the Quad Kings (al Plushenko, Lambiel, Joubert). However, remember Kevin, Zhenya has officially landed over 100+ quads in his almost 13 yr. career in seniors, that's a lot of live up to, but I have a feeling you'll hang tough. So happppy about this kid!!!! And Noburani Oda, what can I say, I had an epiphany about you the other morning, the only thing missing is the quad, which I thought you would go for it every time out from here on in, don't prove me wrong, Noburani, GO FOR IT IN THE LP!!!!! Last but not least, Adam Rippon, he does the USA proud, being the leader of a new generation of American Men this quadrennial. But remember, Adam, with the quad you would honestly be unstoppable, it's well worth mastering imho.


GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ODA, REYNOLDS, RIPPON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *clapping insanely, lol*

 

[Hikaru]

Other than the automatic deductions in the Tech, we do not know whether judges consider Falls as poor performance. But if a ballerina falls in Swan Lake and I've seen it happen, the performance is not good and the audience lets her know it, and that is not even a competition. It's obvious too in skating - poor performance.

I agree with you Joe, for me Skating Skills, Performance/execution has to somehow be connected to the elements the skater performs. Once skater may have good skating skills, but if he fails in the jumps or a spin or whatever, he is not showing great skating skills at that moment (I understand skating skills as the proper use of the blades and edges, the proper technique for doing the elements that comforms figure skating). Which is why I don't understand how any skater making pretty obvious errors in the execution of elements can still get a high score on skating skills. To us a more concrete example, I think for instance that Mao has overall good skating skills, but she didn't show them in her programs at NHK, so while in general she has good SS, at that time, at that competition she didn't execute them as well, and the score for that category should reflect what is seen in the ice.

In this case, while Chan may have showed great skills while executing a footwork sequence, the SS score should be for the overall performance through out the program. I can't imagine the score being higher when there have been clear errors.

 

[FTnoona]

People need to look at the rulebook; the ISU has definite criteria on what falls under the various categories for PCS. I'm not sure whether skating skills involves whether jumps are successfully landed, that should be under the TES and maybe PE if the falls distract from the programme.

I think it's tempting to think that just because a skater falls, he/she doesn't deserve a good score because that is what would have happened under 6.0. The new system doesn't quite work that way! (Although I tend to feel that PCS are being abused just like the Artistic Impression mark was but that's another story)

I know that isn't how the new rules are
I'm just saying that that is my view on how the rules should be. I know that jumps and how they are executed belong in the TES. I just think that some of the technique of the jumps should be involved/linked with skating skills. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough.

 

[mishieru07]

I know that isn't how the new rules are
I'm just saying that that is my view on how the rules should be. I know that jumps and how they are executed belong in the TES. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough.

Well I definitely agree with you that the rules need changes! I don't quibble much with TES but PCS is really very reputation-centric IMO. But alas, I fear Speedy and co don't care about the sport.

 

[Tonichelle]

I think the issue of the marks has been well covered - my question is why cant Patrick Chan stay upright - when was the last time he did a totally clean perofrmace? He is an outstanding skater and athlete but even his 2 world silver medals included flaws in his performance especially last years worlds. His great SS , spins and FW sequences keep him " up there " for sure , but why cant he land the jumps in the first place - is it a focus issue , a tecnical issue a nerves issue or what? I really love his skating but the constant falls or over rotations or step outs give me ulcers ? Can on eof you tecnical experts enlighten me ?

mainly because he doesn't seem to need to, so he doesn't seem to work on fixing his axel technique for one. He's taking the Buttle approach to teh quad (rotate it and land on my butt, take the one point deduction and still get full credit). The fall on footwork was his only mistake out of the norm. That we can chalk up to it being the beginning of the season. hence his high score. He's the men's version of Alissa Czisny. Only less polite to his competition in the press conferences

 

[rocketry]

mainly because he doesn't seem to need to, so he doesn't seem to work on fixing his axel technique for one. He's taking the Buttle approach to teh quad (rotate it and land on my butt, take the one point deduction and still get full credit). The fall on footwork was his only mistake out of the norm. That we can chalk up to it being the beginning of the season. hence his high score. He's the men's version of Alissa Czisny. Only less polite to his competition in the press conferences

Why do you think that he isn't serious about landing the quad? He claims it's one of his more dependable jumps and he claims to land it 4/5 times. It could be talk, but he reportedly did several in practice. I thought it looked gorgeous at Liberty. He also landed all of his triple axels cleanly at Worlds, didn't he? It's an inconsistent element, but I haven't seen anything to make me believe he's blowing it off because he can...

 

[bekalc]

My issue with Chan is that he has these jammed packed choregraphed programs, but he NEVER skates clean. Sometimes in the short but never in the long. And we hear all the time that he deserves to get these high marks even though he's never clean because of his choregraphy.

This is my issue. Maybe the reason Chan is never clean because the reality of the situation is that Patrick cannot handle his difficulty choregraphy and landing the jumps in the long program both. While I DO like choregraphy and transitions, I don't think Skaters should be encouraged to pack in the choregraphy to the point where they are given complete mess of programs. And then get rewarded for it. Its ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I can deal with a small minor mistake. Like the small minor mistake Anton had at the Salt Lake Olympics. But I can't handle a skater falling 3/4 times, and getting rewarded for it. There must be a balance in this system. Where EXECUTION and the actual performance matters. Otherwise why even bother to have a freaking competition.

 

[lavender]

I enjoy Chan's skating (not Chan the actual person) and if he skates clean it should reflect his scores but dude should be like in 7th place or something. He has such wonderful skating skills but I think this sport looks ridiculous putting that skate that high.

 

[hikki]

I might be in the minority, but when I watched Patrick's 3-fall skating, I noticed a significant improvement in his presentation, reaching out more to the audience. What I said to myself was Wow, what a skate if without the falls. The scoring system might be flawed, but I doubt if the judges or the skater himself were at fault with respect to the "over-score".

I have to agree. His presentation, namely upper body movements and the 'reaching out' factor you mentioned, was very noticeable in this program. And can he skate on those deep edges or what?!

That said, I'm surprised to see the high scores, especially TES. So I compared this to another skater who seems to be considered A+ class in skating, (hence overscoring argument at times).

• Takahashi's TES at NHK = 36.83 with 3f(e)-3t, 3axel (messy landing), 3lz.

• Chan's TES at SC = 36.73 with 4 (fall), 3axel (fall), 3f-3t.

1) Quad SP vs. no quad SP

• 
  Takahashi's Total jump base points = 6 (3f) + 4.1(3t)+8.5(3ax)+6.0(3lz)=24.6

• 
  Chan's Total jump base points = 10.3(4t) + 8.5(3ax)+ 6(3f)+ 4.1(3t)=28.9

So Chan has 4.3 points lead over Takahashi with the harder jump contents.

2) Quad SP with three falls vs. clean no quad SPJust taking Chan's 3 falls into account,
28.9 - 3 (automatic penalty) - 3 (mandatory ? -3 GOE deduction for quad)- 3 (mandatory ? -3 GOE deduction for axel) = 19.9

• So very roughly calculated, Quad SP with three falls is 4.7 points behind a clean non quad SP (19.9-24.6=-4.7)

> So a point one could argue is whether the system here is acceptable or not.​

3) Now factor in the fact Takahashi had an edge call and a messed up landing on the 3axel
Takahashi received - 1.91 GEO deduction for the 'two mistakes.'

• With all other things equal, Takahashi one edge call and a messed up landing wuld be worth 2.79 points higher than Chan's quad with 3 falls (4.7 -1.91 = 2.79)

• In reality Takahashi was (only) 0.1 points higher.

• So Chan must have received 2.78 points worth higher GOEs and level calls in non-jump elements.

> Another point of argument here is whether that's justified or not.​

Obviously we're not supposed to compare different competitions, but I think this puts some more 'rational' to the overscored or not argument.

Now why am I doing this when I'm supposed to be working hard for my deadline...

 

[Artistry]

Very good analysis there in the last thread. This "mathematical" precision system is in fact, in actuality as opposed to theory - a total mess.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I'm speechless. (Haven't had chance to watch any skaters other than Chan) Why don't we rename men's figure skating as men's ice dance?