Men's FS

[rinkmaster]

Elevated such axel-less skater. What are you talking about? Buttle earn his points just like every other skater. The whole point of COP is to have fair judging for the skaters. There should be no elevating or putting down based on jump content alone. Let the points add as they add and leave it at that.

I really disagree with this statement... I personally feel that the new system is just as bad as the old one. I think that skaters (not necessarilly Jeff) can still be held up through PCS. Did anyone see Eman's short @ Nationals? In my opinion, this system can easily be just as corrupt as the others. Truth is this system only complicated things, which I believe will ultimately drive away your fringe skating fans and make it on the same popularity as speed skating or bobsled for that matter. Most people on this board are die-hards, to the novice skating fan this new system is far too complicated. One other thing that has always bothered me is we need to remember that long before freeskating was an artform it was a sport and I really think this marking system takes away from the sport of it all. Please, just my opinion.

 

[iloveaxel]

Buttle had a much lower TE score then Lysacek so he was rightfuly docked for missing key jumps and not attempting a quad. That however does not justify the PC scores of Lysacek for a Carmen program I have seen enough times skated to know it does not warrant anywhere near the PC scores he receives for it, and probably to get that score highly questionable GOE scores to go with that. For skaters of the quality of Lysacek to receive the scores he receives in GOE and PC scores repeatedly is an insult to the integrity of the sport. Like I said he is not the only one, Grushina/Goncharova and now Domnina/Shabalin are also receiving scores that bring discredit to the sport we all love so much. The judges are really offending the serious skating fans by giving out marks that do not reflect the quality of skating to certain individuals, and I find it quite offensive as a skating fan.

I do not blame the skaters. It is not fair to cast blame on the skaters, even the beneficiaries for what they gain from unmerited scoring of judges. The blame must be cast where it belongs, with the people who control and are ruining our once great sport.

Sure, Jeff should get better PCS than Evan. But with higher PCS, he would actually beat Even with a axel-less program, which would become a scandal.
That's just the way judges try to compensate the unfairness of this scoring system.

The better solution is to increase the technical marks as percentage of total scores.

 

[Melody]

The blame must be cast where it belongs, with the people who control and are ruining our once great sport.

Boy, do I agree with you! They punish the judges who try and keep/make things honest by suspending them and keep bringing back the &%%$ dishonest judges. I, for one, was dismayed to see a certain judge who is known to enjoy a nice game of footsie judging at junior worlds a few years ago. I spent more time watching him than I did watching some of the skaters, and most of the time, his head was facing the other end of the rink to where the skater actually was - oh, wait, I guess he must have been using the eyes in the back of his head. :sheesh:

 

[temperboy28]

If Evan did exactly the same performance he did at U.S Nationals I am 100% fine with his score to be honest. I said at U.S Nationals his score was a joke and should be dropped by about 10 points. Well what his score here? 10 points lower almost exactly. So if he did that same performance then it is the right score for him, it just goes to prove his score at U.S Nationals was the ridiculous joke I said it was all along though. However I would have no problem with his score here.

If Buttle popped both triple axels, attempted no quad, he should expect to be beaten by a clean Lysacek with a quad and 2 triple axels by over 10 points which is what he was ahead. His PCS seem too low but maybe the judges hammered him on the PCS for missing jump content as well.

 

[enlight78]

I really disagree with this statement... I personally feel that the new system is just as bad as the old one. I think that skaters (not necessarilly Jeff) can still be held up through PCS. Did anyone see Eman's short @ Nationals? In my opinion, this system can easily be just as corrupt as the others. Truth is this system only complicated things, which I believe will ultimately drive away your fringe skating fans and make it on the same popularity as speed skating or bobsled for that matter. Most people on this board are die-hards, to the novice skating fan this new system is far too complicated. One other thing that has always bothered me is we need to remember that long before freeskating was an artform it was a sport and I really think this marking system takes away from the sport of it all. Please, just my opinion.

I understand. The problem was never the system. It was and will always be the judges. I was basing my argument on the ideal theory behind COP. I don't think it is too complicated. In football a team get different points for a touchdown vs a safety vs a field goal. I think ISU could do a better job of explaining the system during broadcasting instead of doing so many fluff pieces. I would also like to see live simplified protocals during a broadcast event.

 

[demarinis5]

Buttle had a much lower TE score then Lysacek so he was rightfuly docked for missing key jumps and not attempting a quad. That however does not justify the PC scores of Lysacek for a Carmen program I have seen enough times skated to know it does not warrant anywhere near the PC scores he receives for it, and probably to get that score highly questionable GOE scores to go with that. For skaters of the quality of Lysacek to receive the scores he receives in GOE and PC scores repeatedly is an insult to the integrity of the sport. Like I said he is not the only one, Grushina/Goncharova previously, and now Domnina/Shabalin are also receiving scores that bring discredit to the sport we all love so much. The judges are really offending the serious skating fans by giving out marks that do not reflect the quality of skating to certain individuals, and I find it quite offensive as a skating fan.

I do not blame the skaters. It is not fair to cast blame on the skaters, even the beneficiaries for what they gain from unmerited scoring of judges. The blame must be cast where it belongs, with the people who control and are ruining our once great sport.

Oh give me a break. I am one figure skating fan who thinks Evan deserved his GOE and PC scores. Going into the LP Evan was ten points behind Buttle. Evan did not have a good SP and his score reflected that. You can't have it both ways. Give the man his due. I am sure his Carmen program rocked tonight.

 

[rain]

If Buttle popped both triple axels, attempted no quad, he should expect to be beaten by a clean Lysacek with a quad and 2 triple axels by over 10 points which is what he was ahead. His PCS seem too low but maybe the judges hammered him on the PCS for missing jump content as well.

I don't think anybody here is arguing otherwise. Lysacek won on his jump content. No question, and deservedly so. However, Buttle, for this LP, does deserve significantly higher PCS than Lysacek for his Carmer FS. If you take a look at the scores, had the judges done this, it still would not have made a difference in the outcome. It just would have reflected the qualities of the two skaters and programs in a more accurate light.

 

[Saundy]

Eman, Eman, Eman... :banging: SO much talent, but too much on the brain when he skates. He most definitely needs to look into some serious sports psychology.

 

[enlight78]

Does anyone know how this will affect the rankings? Or what the rankings are going into worlds?

 

[kittycat26]

I don't think anybody here is arguing otherwise. Lysacek won on his jump content. No question, and deservedly so. However, Buttle, for this LP, does deserve significantly higher PCS than Lysacek for his Carmer FS. If you take a look at the scores, had the judges done this, it still would not have made a difference in the outcome. It just would have reflected the qualities of the two skaters and programs in a more accurate light.

Not entirely true. Evan Lysacek won the overall event by less then two and a half points. Evan undeservedly, unless was half a point ahead on PC scores. Had Evan lost to Buttle on the PC scores by even a mere 2 points, or an average of .2 per component, which even if performed his Carmen program the best I had ever seen it, he still should have lost the PC scores by more then that with Buttle not having a flow-disrupting fall, that would have made the difference in the final outcome of the event due to Evan's deficit after his poor short program.

So contrary to what you are saying the unwarranted PC scores bestowed on Evan Lysacek did in fact make a difference in the final outcome of the event. Truly a shame for the sport, but not the first time the ignorance of skating judges and the integrity of their scoring comes into play and innocent skaters are both the beneficiaries and victims of their ignorance.

 

[iloveaxel]

. Truly a shame for the sport, but not the first time the ignorance of skating judges and the integrity of their scoring comes into play and innocent skaters are both the beneficiaries and victims of their ignorance.

It would be truly a shame and a scandal if Buttle indeed won with that sort of marks without even a 3A.

 

[skater 17]

Boy, do I agree with you! They punish the judges who try and keep/make things honest by suspending them and keep bringing back the &%%$ dishonest judges. I, for one, was dismayed to see a certain judge who is known to enjoy a nice game of footsie judging at junior worlds a few years ago. I spent more time watching him than I did watching some of the skaters, and most of the time, his head was facing the other end of the rink to where the skater actually was - oh, wait, I guess he must have been using the eyes in the back of his head. :sheesh:

I totally agree, what ever system you put in place will not work if the people working the system are dishonest. That is the reason for the lack of intrest in skating not the skaters. They all work hard and have different strenghts, skating has lost it sport appeal due to all the scandles. The dishonesty from the grass root in all association groom the judges from the very start, if they don't support thier federation, and do what they are told, no promotions. Truely the skaters are the recieptants of poor judging and we should not be bashing any of the skaters, they are out thier busting their butts and we should be the last people to judge them, they are the ones living the system that is failing them all.

 

[kittycat26]

Oh give me a break. I am one figure skating fan who thinks Evan deserved his GOE and PC scores. Going into the LP Evan was ten points behind Buttle. Evan did not have a good SP and his score reflected that. You can't have it both ways. Give the man his due. I am sure his Carmen program rocked tonight.

You apparently are a skating "homer", one who goes rah-rah for the home team or personal favorites of yours, rather then being concerned about the true value of skating and the true merits of performances and how they are scored. That is perfectly fine, the sport of skating needs a blend of the less informed "homer" fans like yourself, and the more serious skating fans. However the important thing is that the judges do score with an integrity and sincerity in how they award their scores, and truly reflect the standards of skaters and their skating in a way the "serious" fan can accept and appreciate. The "homer" skating fan, will likely watch anyway, and while they may not mind judging of less integrity, that is not what is most fair to the skaters and what will turn off the most fans.

 

[rinkmaster]

I understand. The problem was never the system. It was and will always be the judges. I was basing my argument on the ideal theory behind COP. I don't think it is too complicated. In football a team get different points for a touchdown vs a safety vs a field goal. I think ISU could do a better job of explaining the system during broadcasting instead of doing so many fluff pieces. I would also like to see live simplified protocals during a broadcast event.

That is essentially what I am saying. It doesn't matter what system you employ. If the people running it are taking care of their own business then that is the problem. My previous point was that this system is no better than the old system.

 

[demarinis5]

You apparently are a skating "homer", one who goes rah-rah for the home team or personal favorites of yours, rather then being concerned about the true value of skating and the true merits of performances and how they are scored. That is perfectly fine, the sport of skating needs a blend of the less informed "homer" fans like yourself, and the more serious skating fans. However the important thing is that the judges do score with an integrity and sincerity in how they award their scores, and truly reflect the standards of skaters and their skating in a way the "serious" fan can accept and appreciate. The "homer" skating fan, will likely watch anyway, and while they may not mind judging of less integrity, that is not what is most fair to the skaters and what will turn off the most fans.

I'll say it again. Give me a break. Please do not try to psychoanalyze me.

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

I'll say it again. Give me a break. Please do not try to psychoanalyze me.

I agree with you. I think what Evan got tonight was a fair score but I think his PCS were a little low. Should be around 77.00 points

 

[kittycat26]

I'll say it again. Give me a break. Please do not try to psychoanalyze me.

There is nothing to psychoanalyze truly. Your comments do not reflect the knowledge or seriousness of a true skating fan that is concerned about the true standards of skaters or skating being upheld, nor the true value of their skating being reflected in scores. You instead come across as that "other type" of skating fan, which is fine, as I said the sport needs a mix of the serious skating fan and the skating fans like yourself. The important thing is their marking is not offensive in a way that turns off the more serious skating fans from holding the same interest level in the sport.

 

[enlight78]

I believe evan could have earn his PCS. They were only in the mid 7's, which occording to the ISU is what a GOOD skater should recieve. I think the question should be was Buttle underscored. I think buttle is capable of getting 8's in TR, CH, and I. Maybe Buttle didn't skate well after the fall tonight.

 

[rain]

It would be truly a shame and a scandal if Buttle indeed won with that sort of marks without even a 3A.

Even if one takes into account the SP, which Lysacek botched and Buttle did not? I think in these discussions a lot of the time people have the tendancy to forget about the previous phases of the competition and that it's not just about one skate, but a combination.

 

[rain]

Maybe Buttle didn't skate well after the fall tonight.

Buttle didn't fall.