ITA that Weir needs a quad to beat Plushy. It's been noted in other threads that Weir has a quad that he does "all the time in practice". It would seem that today would have been a good time for him to have tried it out. As I've also said, a quad in practice doesn't exist to me until he does a quad in competition. There's a big difference in pressure, and I don't think that Weir feels secure in that quad yet to use it, and until he is, it will cost him titles against Plushenko.
Men's FS...
- Thread starter Doggygirl
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
Joesitz said:
I think Johnny's goal is for THIS Olympic year (2006). He is relatively new on the scene but the international judges clearly like him. I am sure he is trying to catch up to Plushenko this year (2005), although he did not go for the quad at COR (may be he was trying to just make sure he made it to the GPF). Last year he made a comment about Plushenko that was a bit premature, IMO. Perhaps this competition was a wake up call for him.
I did not know Lee Ann Miller was choreographing for Min Zhang. Now I am really curious to see his skate.
Andrei went for the quad, and did not make it. However, I give him credit for trying. Coming back from the injury, it sounds like he had a pretty respectable skate, even though he finished in 8th place. I hope he is healthy for worlds.
Vash
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
Add to my previous post (just a general comment):
What could hurt Johnny is- high expectations too soon by fans, himself, and those around him. He is a great talent and he has really skyrocketed on the national and international scene. It makes the fans think that he could or should beat Plushenko right now. However, he needs to develop in some areas to get there. He could even get there by the 2006 Olympics, it is just that right now he is not there, and I hope he will work toward it. One has to remember that Plushenko is just 21 and he too is trying to improve.
Vash
What could hurt Johnny is- high expectations too soon by fans, himself, and those around him. He is a great talent and he has really skyrocketed on the national and international scene. It makes the fans think that he could or should beat Plushenko right now. However, he needs to develop in some areas to get there. He could even get there by the 2006 Olympics, it is just that right now he is not there, and I hope he will work toward it. One has to remember that Plushenko is just 21 and he too is trying to improve.
Vash
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2004
Joesitz said:
Exactly, when you are doing only triples, you cannot afford to underrotate them. He had a 2flip which was supposed to be 3f in combo, according to his program description in NHK. He (Johnny) does get many points aside from his base value, but even with the program he did in NHK it is still below the amount of points of Plushenko. His spins (Johnny's) were rated higher than Plushy's, but he's going to need some quads to boost up the technical marks.
I think Min is very good, he's musical and he can make the jumps, though he needs more consistency in that area, but it is very pleasant to see him skate.
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
I think that will develop with time. I believe that Johnny will definitely have one possibly two quads before the 2006 Olympics.
This is a very important season because it sets the tone for the all important olympic season. So it is very important that the skaters get their jumps out there because that will probably be the jumps that they will do at 2005 worlds and possibly the 2006 Olympics.
This is a very important season because it sets the tone for the all important olympic season. So it is very important that the skaters get their jumps out there because that will probably be the jumps that they will do at 2005 worlds and possibly the 2006 Olympics.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2004
Vash01 said:
Maybe Johnny wanted to see if he could beat him without the quad, or to see how much point difference he would get without the quad. To what a previous poster said about Johnny's base point and Plushenko's: comparing NHK which was Johnny's best competition at the GP, he had a base value of 62.5 of TES but he got a total of 69.60, a 7.10 increase. Evgeny's base value was at CoR 72.5, but got 76.50, 4 points increase. So, assuming Plushenko scored the around the same, Johnny still would need a higher base value for his TE, and for that he's gonna have a quad. The "practice-quad" is sort of becoming a holly grail: everybody heard of it, but no one can find it. I love Johnny's skating style, and all he needs to win is a program that can challenge in points Plushenko's, the presentation marks are vey close. I hope he and his coach use CoR as a learning experience and focus on improving the weak areas.
Vash01 said:
You'r gonna like Min, and you can see him at CoC.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2004
BittyBug said:Nonetheless, Johnny had an outstanding Grand Prix debut and goes into the final as the top qualifier. I'd say that's a pretty excellent showing. :agree:
Technically speaking this year was not Johnny's debut. I recall seeing him and admiring his amazing spins a couple of years ago at the Skate America. I think that was also the year Lucinda Ruh skated with SOI b/c I was really into spinning that season. I think SA was the only Grand Prix that he skated in that year.
Good for Johnny. I think he is amazing, but even as a huge fan I never thought that he could beat Plushenko this year (with Plushenko being "Plushenko" of course). Even with a quad, it would be a stretch. However, once he gets a quad and a nice quad combo, anything is possible.
Yana
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
Hikaru said:
I doubt that Johnny "wanted to see if he could beat Plushenko without the quad". Skaters don't experiment like that. They are competitors and they want to win. I suspect Johnny does not yet have confidence in his quad and he did not want to risk it at this time. When he feels ready he will do it.
I already have COC on tape. I better go watch Min Zhang's skate. I have not yet watched the whole tape.
Vash
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I do get myself in trouble with that word "smug" which I believe just means "self assured". Johnny is quite outspoken and he has at times spoke of other skaters as something he is not worried about.
I believe he did say his goal is 2010, but of course, when one is competing, one will want to win even in a 'friendly' bridge game. Since he is going into his first GP Final with 21 points, he will rethink what he has learned from his GP segments. It's a learning experience for him, even if he doesn't realize it.
It's amazing that Johnny has gotten so much attention this season in the forums. He just turned 20 (young for a male skater) and is the reigning "new kid on the block".
Evgeny fans relax. The big competition is Brian Joubert.
Joe
I believe he did say his goal is 2010, but of course, when one is competing, one will want to win even in a 'friendly' bridge game. Since he is going into his first GP Final with 21 points, he will rethink what he has learned from his GP segments. It's a learning experience for him, even if he doesn't realize it.
It's amazing that Johnny has gotten so much attention this season in the forums. He just turned 20 (young for a male skater) and is the reigning "new kid on the block".
Evgeny fans relax. The big competition is Brian Joubert.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Joesitz said:
Erm, not with his "1492" program, he isn't. Johnny, Stephane Lambiel, Emanuel Sandhu....those are the competition. Possibly Jeff Buttle if he gets his jumps more consistent. CoP is rewarding the "artists" and Joubert is not yet an artist.
Joesitz said:
I like both Evan and Andrei a lot...both have great potential, and seem to be nice kids. However...I don't know that anything is keeping Andrei down. Unlike Evan, (and Johnny, who I also like very much) he has gone for a quad twice in competition this year, the only two he's done. I'm sure missing it shook up the rest of his program a bit, as he seems rather young and easily shaken when he has an error or two. But he is gaining the experience NOW that I think both Evan and Johnny could use, regarding putting the quad in the program. I hope that he is fully healthy for Russian Nats, Euros and Worlds.
Kasey
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2004
CoP is rewarding the classical dancers, regardless of the other routes that exist to good presentation. Not that Joubert's LP is wonderful this year; Just that even if it was, COP would still not reward it.PrincessLeppard said:
I think Johnny is holding back on the quad because the day he misses it, he will officially become "the guy that can't do the quad" whereas while he doesn't do it, he can get by with being "the guy that's so good he doesn't need a quad". And lets face it, although i think it's a CoP problem, a quad would not change his placing: he is already ahead of Joubert and would not catch Plushy. There is no incentive for him to do so. I don't think he's getting too high component marks, just that there isn't enough difference between the triples with token efforts at difficult entries and the quads in the values.
Joesitz said:
Whatever Johnny might be saying, I think that it would be a huge mistake if he would not do everything he can for this Olympics. In 2010 Johnny would be 25(?) and who knows in what condition as we think of how many injuries the top skaters have been suffering lately.
millyskate said:
I think that by putting a quad into his programme Johnny will be seen by the judges as a guy who is trying to get his technic on a higher level. If he does not include a quad into his programme soon, he will be seen as a guy who does not have a quad in his competitive arsenal. And in my opinion a quad is not a jump a skater should start trying out in the Olympic season, no, it must happen before that.
Marjaana
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Off topic: Not to mention the most beautiful face in Men's skating (IMO). End Off topic.Joesitz said:
I can't wait to see these programs when I get home, TiVo willing. Hello to everyone from Oz.
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
Hikaru said:
I did. I watched his program last night. He has graceful arm movements, musicality, and a nice style....somewhat unusual for a Chinese skater. He fell on two of his quads (he landed a quad toe-double toe combo) and lost points. Now I am really curious to see his LP at COR. He had very high tech marks which means he probably landed those quads. Combined with his style, that should be a pretty good program.
brian with that craptacular program can't even beat a quadless weir.
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2003
Alright, I've been looking at the number crunching about their technical scores, and I just need to make an observation. One of the things about the COP that everyone liked was that it doesn't focus solely on jumps, and gives skaters credit for difficult footwork, as well as spins...
...well, looking at it, the judges said that Evgeny did Level 1 footwork and Level 1 spins, where as Johnny's footwork was judged up to a level 3, and his spins were mostly level 2 range. And yet, Evgeny beat Johnny by a CONSIDERABLE margin technically. Not to mention, both of them had falls. And that's because Evgeny did harder jumps, which count for MUCH more than Johnny's advanced spins and footwork.
So, my question is, what about the COP makes it more well rounded? Because, as I look at it, Johnny preformed more advanced moves than Evgeny...just not jumps.
...well, looking at it, the judges said that Evgeny did Level 1 footwork and Level 1 spins, where as Johnny's footwork was judged up to a level 3, and his spins were mostly level 2 range. And yet, Evgeny beat Johnny by a CONSIDERABLE margin technically. Not to mention, both of them had falls. And that's because Evgeny did harder jumps, which count for MUCH more than Johnny's advanced spins and footwork.
So, my question is, what about the COP makes it more well rounded? Because, as I look at it, Johnny preformed more advanced moves than Evgeny...just not jumps.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
elingrace4eva said:
You raise a good point Elingrace. I would love to study the breakdowns of a few judges' scores ( not to complain) so as to see how they would arrive at the differences in top tier skaters. It could be Brian and Tim. I don't care. I just want to see how the whole thing works. If the jumps have higher base scores than there is a tilt in the scoring system. If not, then it's just plain cheating with awarding the pluses or not giving pluses. But one must really
check this out. Maybe some day next June.
hwell: Joe
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- Aug 5, 2003
I highly disagree that Evgeny is a more powerful skater. He certainly has more powerful jumps, but, in the past, I've always found his footwork to lack enthusiasm, and to be rather simple.
But, looking at the numbers, the judges gave Evgeny 2.7 points on his straightline footwork, and gave Johnny 3.7 points. Also, on the final combination spin, Johnny scored a 3.6, where Evgeny only got a 3.1. They gave Johnny 3.7 points on his LEVEL 3 flying sit, where as Evgeny did the same spin, and only scored 2 points.
You can see from these numbers that Johnny exceeded Evgeny in all these areas, at least according to these judges. Therefore, it's safe to assume that Evgeny won because his jumps were more difficult (although both of them had serious problems on their jumps).
