Men's Long Program

[Medusa]

continued...

Joubert -- Stinkeroo. I am trying my best to like Brian's skating. Here is my advice to him: Fire your choreographer. Get some music that isn't just random cacaphony that after a while blends into annoyingly loud white noise. Lose the toe-tappy crap in your first footwork sequence.

KVDP. MY MAN!!! Go Kevin!!! That's the way to show everyone what figure skating is all about. Just jump up a storm, then jump some more. Spins? Footwork? Why pretend? Interpretation and choregraphy? Don't let any of that irrelevant stuff distract you from doing your job!

The men that took a stab at bringing something to the table besides jumps -- Buttle, for instance -- look what happened to them. Don't let that happen to you and you'll be fine. (Check out Plushenko, for instance.)

May be harsh, but very fun to read - even if I do not completely agree. And I know that Mr. van der Perren has about as much artistry as Asafa Powell, but I still admire him for what he does. I mean, there are no real competitions where you only jump - what is he supposed to do? As for Monsieur Joubert, the poor guy is trying and trying and trying to become an artist - and it is not working out for him, not with Yagudin, not with, who is it now, Browning? Perhaps he should just go back to having fun and jump.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I agree with Mathman. :frown2: I'm praying to the skategods that somebody (Lambiel, preferably) comes and save us from the jump-jump-what choreography?-transitions?-jump madness.

 

[Mathman]

Actually, I wasn't trying to pick on Kevin. I agree with Medusa -- I admire him for what he does, and he did a great job today.

 

[singerskates]

I didn't find Jeff was slow or his "performance level" was that affected by his jump mistakes. Seemed to me he still sold the program, perhaps a bit "going through the motions". But I would take Jeff going through the motions program anyday over what the others put out there. Positive sign, he did a great t-axel. Seemed like a mental meltdown more than sign of his fitness level. I think he will be back with a strong program at some point before worlds. I wasn't that impressed by the new Joubert/Kurt look either. Seemed like same old Joubert program to me.

I'm thinking the problem with Jeff's skating isn't his skating but what has been going on in his head lately. Up until a week and a half ago Jeff was down in the L.A. Santa Ana Valley area where he lives while training at Lake Arrowhead. There have been some very distructive fires there. A matter a fact Jeff had to evacuate from where he was staying because the fires were closing in. I think what hampered Jeff's skating was life. He was probably thinking of too many things at once and didn't skate with the usual passion. Like when was the last time you saw a World/Olympic level competitor mess up basic crosscuts? It had to be what was going on in his life off of the ice in the last few weeks.

 

[rain]

Okay, after having seen the competition, I have to say that the scores and the elements lists do not tell the story of this competition.

Chipeur: Great costume. What he needs now is some ballet training (or at least dance of some kind.) His arms are uncomfortably stiff throughout and he has zero extension, particularly in his legs, but also in the aforementioned arms. His jumps are lovely.

Kevin Van Der Perren: First, his costume is everything that people make fun of skating for. Shiny gold on white. Awful. His jumps were great. Everything else was terrible. He was extremely slow, and the program was basically non-existent. Even with the jumps, I'm not sure I would have given him the win in the FS. Everything else really was that bad.

Mabee: He skated really well. His jumps were largely great, his speed was noticeably better than Van Der Perren, and his footwork and expression were wonderful. Overall, I would have had him above Van Der Perren.

Jeff Buttle: This was not nearly as bad a performance as I was expecting from the numbers. The program is a masterpiece, Jeff's speed and flow was excellent and he never faltered in the performance. The reason for some of jump problems was a mystery. His 3x/3toe was beautiful, and the other triples he landed were also very well done. His footwork and spins were a work of art. I don't think he's done.

Ponsero: The guy imploded on the jumps. He does have a lovely style on the ice. One of those programs though, that you bet he wanted to get off the ice as quickly as possible. People should take a look at this before they start being too hard on Buttle.

Joubert: I thought his problems looked more like the result of early season than anything else. Noticeably tired towards the end. I liked the program and think it will develop as it goes. Good footwork etc, and he didn't forget the performance in spite of the problems.

In general, having seen it I have a big problem with Van der Perren winning the FS. He did the most jumps well, but he had nothing else. This shouldn't just be a jumping contest and I didn't think the rest of the guys were so far behind him in jump content that their clear superiority on every other element shouldn't have made up the deficit.

 

[chuckm]

But Jeff didn't lose a home in the fires, did he? That is a poor excuse for his lackluster performance.

Jeff does a sloppy FS with only 5 triples and one combination, was slow as molasses (for him), and yet he gets a whopping 72 for presentation. Jeremy Abbott, who is also an artist on ice, rotated a quad, did 7 triples and 3 combinations, and recorded the 2nd highest TES, but received only 58 on his PCS.

Jeff isn't going to improve as long as he doesn't have to. And he won't have to as long as he is guaranteed high PCS scores no matter how poorly he skates.

 

[emma]

Great review, Rain. Thanks for sharing!!!!

 

[Hsuhs]

Brian's both flips received an 'e', Jeff's only 2F too.
Cheaters! Lipers!

 

[museksk8r]

I take it the coverage of today's ice dance and men is still not available online to anyone outside of Canada, is that right?

 

[Saundy]

But Jeff didn't lose a home in the fires, did he? That is a poor excuse for his lackluster performance.

Jeff does a sloppy FS with only 5 triples and one combination, was slow as molasses (for him), and yet he gets a whopping 72 for presentation. Jeremy Abbott, who is also an artist on ice, rotated a quad, did 7 triples and 3 combinations, and recorded the 2nd highest TES, but received only 58 on his PCS.

Jeff isn't going to improve as long as he doesn't have to. And he won't have to as long as he is guaranteed high PCS scores no matter how poorly he skates.

Can't say that I agree with that. I agree with what some other people were saying here - that it's only the first competition of the season and not EVERYONE is going to have all their kinks worked out. I think the reason some of the lower ranked skaters are able to deliver is partly due to the fact that they don't have any pressure whatsoever. I also don't think that Jeff is anywhere near being done yet...

Just my opinions so don't anyone go jumping down my throat please.

 

[rain]

I agree with what some other people were saying here - that it's only the first competition of the season and not EVERYONE is going to have all their kinks worked out. I think the reason some of the lower ranked skaters are able to deliver is partly due to the fact that they don't have any pressure whatsoever. I also don't think that Jeff is anywhere near being done yet...

Just because Buttle didn't actually lose his home, I agree that it may have been a distraction to be evacuated, and have to wait and wonder and whatnot.

Also, yeah, early season. And not only do some of the lower-ranked skaters not have the same kind of pressure, they also tend to have simpler programs to learn and execute. Just something to keep in mind. I do think it's unfair to expect skaters to be 100 per cent right now. If they are, they're peaking too early.

 

[chuckm]

The protocols tell a story, too, and it's a lot more objective.

Chipeur (5th overall, 6th in FS): TES 62.16 [5th], PCS 59.60 [6th]. 7 triples, 2 combinations. Popped a 2A. Lipped his 3F. Got -GOE on his 3L, 3A (should have been in combination), 3S, and 3Z combination. Only 2 triples were clean.

Kevin Van Der Perren (2nd overall, 1st in FS): TES 74.54 [1st], PCS 61.90 [4th]. Beautiful, clean quad, 7 triples, 3 combinations. All of his jumps were clean (the only element to receive -GOE was his footwork, -0.06). Like it or not, a clean performance IS deserving of high scores. He is the reigning Euro bronze medalist because of strong, clean performances.

Mabee (4th overall, 5th in FS): TES 60.80 [8th], PCS 64.90 [3rd]. 6 triples (his 3A in the combo was underrotated), 2 combos. Popped a second 3A attempt. Jumps were clean except for the underrotated 3A. He just did not have the technical content---no 3A, and no 3 jump combo. I can't see placing him above VDP's quad/7 triple program---you'd have to add 14 points to Mabee's PCS to do that and he's good, but not that good.

Jeff Buttle (3rd overall, 3rd in FS): TES 60.92 [7th], PCS 70.31 [2nd]. 5 triples, 1 combination. Doubled salchow and flip (dinged for lip), fell on 2nd lutz. -GOE on 2A and 3S. Final spin only L2. IMO, Jeff was majorly gifted on the PCS to keep him in medal position. It could be said that Mabee was robbed as a result.

Ponsero (6th overall, 10th in FS): TES 50.49 [11th], PCS 61.60 [5th]. Rotated a quad. 4 triples, all with -GOE, two combinations, 3S2T and 2A2T. Yes, he did skate worse than Buttle, but Ponsero paid the price for his meltdown, slipping from 2nd to 6th. Buttle didn't skate well but maintained his placement anyway.

Joubert (1st overall, 2nd in FS): TES 64.47 [3rd], PCS 72.10 [2nd]. Rotated quad. 6 triples, 2 combinations (one a 3/2/2). Lipped both 3Fs. Popped final axel. -GOE on only 3A. Generous PCS scores, highest in competition.

Adding one skater:
Abbott (8th overall, 4th in FS): TES 70.31 [2nd], PCS 58.00 [7th]. Rotated quad. 7 triples, 3 combos (3/3, 3/3/2, 3/2). Popped 2nd axel. 5 triples were clean---the ones in the combos. Great musical interpretation. Majorly lowballed on PCS because he was in the first group. Should have placed above Kaska, maybe even above Ponsero (who was gifted with a high PCS despite a much sloppier skate).

I have no problem with Kevin VDP winning the FS. He had the ONLY clean performance of all the men, as well as the highest technical content.

 

[rain]

The protocols tell a story, too, and it's a lot more objective.

Chipeur (5th overall, 6th in FS): TES 62.16 [5th], PCS 59.60 [6th]. 7 triples, 2 combinations. Popped a 2A. Lipped his 3F. Got -GOE on his 3L, 3A (should have been in combination), 3S, and 3Z combination. Only 2 triples were clean.

Kevin Van Der Perren (2nd overall, 1st in FS): TES 74.54 [1st], PCS 61.90 [4th]. Beautiful, clean quad, 7 triples, 3 combinations. All of his jumps were clean (the only element to receive -GOE was his footwork, -0.06). Like it or not, a clean performance IS deserving of high scores. He is the reigning Euro bronze medalist because of strong, clean performances.

Mabee (4th overall, 5th in FS): TES 60.80 [8th], PCS 64.90 [3rd]. 6 triples (his 3A in the combo was underrotated), 2 combos. Popped a second 3A attempt. Jumps were clean except for the underrotated 3A. He just did not have the technical content---no 3A, and no 3 jump combo. I can't see placing him above VDP's quad/7 triple program---you'd have to add 14 points to Mabee's PCS to do that and he's good, but not that good.

Jeff Buttle (3rd overall, 3rd in FS): TES 60.92 [7th], PCS 70.31 [2nd]. 5 triples, 1 combination. Doubled salchow and flip (dinged for lip), fell on 2nd lutz. -GOE on 2A and 3S. Final spin only L2. IMO, Jeff was majorly gifted on the PCS to keep him in medal position. It could be said that Mabee was robbed as a result.

Ponsero (6th overall, 10th in FS): TES 50.49 [11th], PCS 61.60 [5th]. Rotated a quad. 4 triples, all with -GOE, two combinations, 3S2T and 2A2T. Yes, he did skate worse than Buttle, but Ponsero paid the price for his meltdown, slipping from 2nd to 6th. Buttle didn't skate well but maintained his placement anyway.

Joubert (1st overall, 2nd in FS): TES 64.47 [3rd], PCS 72.10 [2nd]. Rotated quad. 6 triples, 2 combinations (one a 3/2/2). Lipped both 3Fs. Popped final axel. -GOE on only 3A. Generous PCS scores, highest in competition.

Adding one skater:
Abbott (8th overall, 4th in FS): TES 70.31 [2nd], PCS 58.00 [7th]. Rotated quad. 7 triples, 3 combos (3/3, 3/3/2, 3/2). Popped 2nd axel. 5 triples were clean---the ones in the combos. Great musical interpretation. Majorly lowballed on PCS because he was in the first group. Should have placed above Kaska, maybe even above Ponsero (who was gifted with a high PCS despite a much sloppier skate).

I have no problem with Kevin VDP winning the FS. He had the ONLY clean performance of all the men, as well as the highest technical content.

Did you actually watch the competition? Because I must disagree with you. Kevin VDP's program as a whole was not clean and strong. The jumps were clean and strong. That's it. He was very gifted on all of his non-jump elements. They all should have received significant negative GOEs, because they were slow, tentative, perfunctory and bad.

Jeff was not gifted on the PCS, IMO. He earned those marks for having the best actual program out there. Was he not up to snuff on the jumps? Absolutely. But the overall impression of the program was far superior, and on a night when there were a lot of mistakes, that makes a difference.

And yes, I would have put Mabee above both he and Kevin, because I think he came the closest to having the best of both worlds.

As for a Buttle/Ponsero comparison — Ponsero looked like he was having a major meltdown, Buttle did not. That counts for something. Buttle did do more, better.

 

[chuckm]

When he skates poorly, Jeff gets the same PCS as when he skates well. That doesn't make much sense. Are you saying that Jeff should always win because he is so talented? On that basis, then Sasha Cohen should have alway won despite HER jump problems.

When a Buttle program is skated sloppily, perhaps the IN and SS marks could stay the same. But PE is supposed to mark HOW WELL the program was skated. The mark should not be the same for a subpar performance as it is for a good one. The same is true for CH and TR. Choreography and transitions suffer when there are falls and wonky jumps.

Some of the comments of those who watched the performance said Jeff was much slower than usual, and that even his spins weren't as good as they used to be (the final spin was only L2, remember)? And these comments came from Jeff fans!

To be fair, I don't think Joubert should have gotten that high a PCS score either, because his programs had its share of rough spots. And Ponsero's PCS was much too high for the mess it turned out to be.

Maybe if Buttle, and Mabee had skated technically loaded clean programs they would have pushed Joubert and Van Der Perren out of the top spots. They didn't, and they wound up lower, and that is entirely fair.

Now they know what they have to do for their next GP events. Let's see if they can do it.

 

[ks777]

When he skates poorly, Jeff gets the same PCS as when he skates well. That doesn't make much sense. Are you saying that Jeff should always win because he is so talented? On that basis, then Sasha Cohen should have alway won despite HER jump problems.

When a Buttle program is skated sloppily, perhaps the IN and SS marks could stay the same. But PE is supposed to mark HOW WELL the program was skated. The mark should not be the same for a subpar performance as it is for a good one. The same is true for CH and TR. Choreography and transitions suffer when there are falls and wonky jumps.

Some of the comments of those who watched the performance said Jeff was much slower than usual, and that even his spins weren't as good as they used to be (the final spin was only L2, remember)? And these comments came from Jeff fans!

To be fair, I don't think Joubert should have gotten that high a PCS score either, because his programs had its share of rough spots. And Ponsero's PCS was much too high for the mess it turned out to be.

Maybe if Buttle, and Mabee had skated technically loaded clean programs they would have pushed Joubert and Van Der Perren out of the top spots. They didn't, and they wound up lower, and that is entirely fair.

Now they know what they have to do for their next GP events. Let's see if they can do it.

I agree with chuckm.

 

[NorthernLite]

(This is re: my preferences, not what CoP rewarded today.)

On a lackluster day Chipheur was the most entertaining to me.

WRT Kevin van der "Pooren" -- Some of my fave all-time programs have been JumpFests. And I usually don't heavily attack skaters I don't like. I figure they're all trying, some just aren't my cup of tea.

But what I loathed about KVDP is that he *isn't* trying to do anything but slowly skate around into the next jump. I thought his SP in particular was so apathetic. He looked like he didn't even want to be there. So excuse me if I'm not enthused that he medalled.

As for Brian - just an off day. Perhaps lack of competition made him lose focus. His SP was brilliant and much improved. He was da man there. If I weren't superstitious about making long-range predictions for my favorites ...

Buttle: I don't know what to think. Brilliant moments of skating. Eh jumps. He's a bit more in danger of being a headcase IMHO.

Oh, and two events back-to-back where there was no suspense re: the winner? Once again from a marketing POV I have to ask if the ISU really thinks that'll fill seats and pull the ratings.

 

[netnuts]

Jeffrey's PCS is absurd. I hope he gets dinged in Moscow if he still skates like this. He doubled, singled, fell on jumps, major distractions. Very slow based on his own standard. His jumps are going nowhere, I think he is pretty much done.

Mabee should get the bronze.

Brian's PCS is also a bit high, but it won't impact the placement anyway.

 

[dance4u]

Chipeur

Long Program outfit, Robert Redford look from music Out of Africa.
Too bad no triple triples in the program. He has an excellent triple A/ triple toe combination. He needs to put in the program like in practice.
He can jump, he needs to sell the program to be on top.

 

[Hsuhs]

I thought it was kind of informative to see Brian being beaten with his own weapon.

Jeff, IMHO, wasn't that bad, in terms of choreography. I wish I cared more about him wuzrobbing 'that other guy' whose LP I didn't DL and watch, b/c I was too lazy to do so.

 

[rain]

When he skates poorly, Jeff gets the same PCS as when he skates well. That doesn't make much sense. Are you saying that Jeff should always win because he is so talented?

When a Buttle program is skated sloppily, perhaps the IN and SS marks could stay the same. But PE is supposed to mark HOW WELL the program was skated. The mark should not be the same for a subpar performance as it is for a good one. The same is true for CH and TR. Choreography and transitions suffer when there are falls and wonky jumps.

Some of the comments of those who watched the performance said Jeff was much slower than usual, and that even his spins weren't as good as they used to be (the final spin was only L2, remember)? And these comments came from Jeff fans!

To be fair, I don't think Joubert should have gotten that high a PCS score either, because his programs had its share of rough spots. And Ponsero's PCS was much too high for the mess it turned out to be.

Maybe if Buttle, and Mabee had skated technically loaded clean programs they would have pushed Joubert and Van Der Perren out of the top spots. They didn't, and they wound up lower, and that is entirely fair.

Now they know what they have to do for their next GP events. Let's see if they can do it.

Of course I'm not saying Buttle should always win. Don't be absurd. You might remember that I actually said I thought Mabee should have beaten both him and VDP in the LP. I don't remotely think that Buttle should have won this competition. He was lucky to get a bronze medal. But lucky in the sense that nobody else skated that well either, not in the sense that the judges unfairly held him up. Under those circumstances his excellent choreography does and should count for something.

You find his PCS absurd? Well, just comparatively speaking in this competition alone, I don't. At least, no more absurd than VDP's scores for a program that was nothing but jumps. BTW, comparing scores competition to competition under COP is notoriously unreliable.

Some thought Buttle was slow. Okay. I didn't really see that, particularly compared to the rest of the guys in the field.

I think my biggest problem is the overall, big picture illuminated here.... A guy with jumps, who didn't even TRY to do anything else or present his program to the audience, won over guys who made a few technical errors on jumps, but had packed programs. That's not a good thing, IMO. One of the things COP was supposed to do was make sure that all elements of the skating were important.