You are correct, however, I would still argue that speed is an important technical component of footwork and should be recognized as such. I also understand why they haven't done this. It would add another layer of subjectivity to the technical scores, something they've specifically tried to avoid with their guidlines for when deductions may be taken. It gets into the realm of what's slow? How slow is too slow? What about relative slowness? Personally I think it's one of those 'know it when you see it' kind of things.
Men's Long Program
- Thread starter fumie_fumie
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You are correct, however, I would still argue that speed is an important technical component of footwork and should be recognized as such. I also understand why they haven't done this. It would add another layer of subjectivity to the technical scores, something they've specifically tried to avoid with their guidlines for when deductions may be taken. It gets into the realm of what's slow? How slow is too slow? What about relative slowness? Personally I think it's one of those 'know it when you see it' kind of things.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
The murmuring in the arena was that Mabee should have gotten the bronze and not Buttle. Was it a solid murmur? Dunno. Jeffrey has a lot fans in Canada.
buth they do like Christopher. Another murmuring was v.d.Perren's costume which he should dump.
Van de Perren was slow on the ice, but he did his quad and all those jumps. Joubert had trouble with the quad and was not stellar with the 3A. v.d. does have trouble spinning and Joubert has improved in that area especiall his stand-up spins.
Neither has the rhythm that Buttle has although v.d. and Brian are skating somewhat better than before.
Keep your eye on Chippeur. He has a nice solid macho no nonsense style which Mabee lacks although Mabee's jumps have become solidified.
Joe
buth they do like Christopher. Another murmuring was v.d.Perren's costume which he should dump.
Van de Perren was slow on the ice, but he did his quad and all those jumps. Joubert had trouble with the quad and was not stellar with the 3A. v.d. does have trouble spinning and Joubert has improved in that area especiall his stand-up spins.
Neither has the rhythm that Buttle has although v.d. and Brian are skating somewhat better than before.
Keep your eye on Chippeur. He has a nice solid macho no nonsense style which Mabee lacks although Mabee's jumps have become solidified.
Joe
Hi Joe --
I'm waiting for the belated ESPN broadcast so can't comment intelligently on the programs. Just wanted to say I love a good eyewitness report. Thanks for posting your impressions.
I've checked out the still shots so do have one purely subjective opinion. That Glam Rock David Bowie Does Lawrence of Arabia outfit has GOT to go!
Susan
I'm waiting for the belated ESPN broadcast so can't comment intelligently on the programs. Just wanted to say I love a good eyewitness report. Thanks for posting your impressions.
I've checked out the still shots so do have one purely subjective opinion. That Glam Rock David Bowie Does Lawrence of Arabia outfit has GOT to go!
Susan
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Decker - I hope I didn't spoil the outcome for you.
I hope ESPN shows as much as time allows and doesn't resort to a lot of fluff and commercials. For example, I liked Ashley Wagner's LP but I doubt ESPN will show it. And there are many more like that.
Joe
I hope ESPN shows as much as time allows and doesn't resort to a lot of fluff and commercials. For example, I liked Ashley Wagner's LP but I doubt ESPN will show it. And there are many more like that.
Joe
OMG, this is the best description of that costume ever! Oh no, it makes me LIKE the costume
Keep your observations coming, Joe, they are great and most appreciated!
In the short program Vaughn Chipeur deserved a standing ovation. What I like about him is the fact that he is exciting to watch. The triple axel in the short was the best I have seen anywhere.His athleticism is impressive.
This guy believe it or not was in the dance program for 12 years ballet, tap etc.
I know it doesn't show like it should. He always says he doesn't want to look fluffy. But he has improved tremendously and he needs to sell that program.
As for Mabee, I truly enjoyed every aspect of his skating.
The men's skating need to be exciting in order to sell figure skating. Entertaining and exciting!!!!!!Brian Joubert's short was all of that.
This guy believe it or not was in the dance program for 12 years ballet, tap etc.
I know it doesn't show like it should. He always says he doesn't want to look fluffy. But he has improved tremendously and he needs to sell that program.
As for Mabee, I truly enjoyed every aspect of his skating.
The men's skating need to be exciting in order to sell figure skating. Entertaining and exciting!!!!!!Brian Joubert's short was all of that.
I watched the mens long program on sunday, they did not replay Mabee's axle just his combo (CBC) but when I was watching I never thought one a second, whoa that was "cheated". I wouldn't say his axle was any less rotated then Jouberts quad was, and he wasn't downgraded. I think that jump and down grade made the difference. It is kind of weird that his biggest jump pass was downgraded and it made the differnce between 3rd and 4th (IMO). Also, VDP and Mabee scored both level 2 step sequences in the long program, but even Kurt Browning commented on Mabee's steps and turns and their difficulty. It was shown in the GOE and Mabee was rewarded. I heard Mabee was rather upset after the long program and he looked disappointed in the kiss and cry. Just my thoughts.
The Skate Canada callers didn't make anywhere near as many underrotation calls as the Skate America Ladies caller did. While the ladies got gigged for 29 underrotations at Skate America, the men at Skate Canada got gigged only for 6.
So if the caller said Mabee's 3A was underrotated, it probably was.
So if the caller said Mabee's 3A was underrotated, it probably was.
You are probably right chuckm, the callers are probably never wrong.
All I stated before was that if Mabee's 3x was under rotated, I think it is kind of funny that Joubert 4t was not by the caller. But then again if the caller said his wasn't under rotated, than it probably wasn't... there are no flaws to this system.
All I stated before was that if Mabee's 3x was under rotated, I think it is kind of funny that Joubert 4t was not by the caller. But then again if the caller said his wasn't under rotated, than it probably wasn't... there are no flaws to this system.
I guess we will just have to wait and see what happends in France next week. It looks like a hard field for the men. I am not trying to be ingnorant, but I have had a couple of conversations in the last two days about the mens event from SC, and I am not the only one who thinks Mabee should have been on the podium, as well as Joubert. It isnt just about the medals, but it does reflect the points and world standings, oh... and prize money too (which is a bonus).
The only way for Mabee to be on the podium would be to push Buttle off. At least Buttle did complete a clean 3A. Mabee didn't quite rotate his first attempt, and he popped the second attempt.
If you're suggesting that VDP, with 8 clean jumps (a quad and 7 triples, including a 3A) should have been pushed off thepodium to make room for Mabee (with 6 triples, no 3A), that is beyond ridiculous.
If you think the caller was wrong, do you also think the tech team was wrong to ding Mao, Hughes and Wagner for underrotations? The tech team was the same for both the Men's and Ladies' events.
Vaughn Chipeur comes across as pure jock - I got a big chuckle looking at him in contrast with all the others decked out in their costumes in that final warm-up group for the LP! And the contrast in styles from his SP to Mabee's directly following him, was hilarious! (not a knock on Mabee's SP, which I loved!)
At the outset I was prepared to find him boring, in the way that the "jock" skaters sometimes can be (even Joubert), but somehow I liked watching him. And, while jock and "no-nonsense" and whatnot, I do think this guy IS capable of a certain grace to his skating. Will be interesting if he can fully develop it. And that axel is BEAUTIFUL! I wonder why it hasn't been so easy for him to get 2 in a program? (I'm not a skater; no doubt this is hard... a stamina issue?)
At the outset I was prepared to find him boring, in the way that the "jock" skaters sometimes can be (even Joubert), but somehow I liked watching him. And, while jock and "no-nonsense" and whatnot, I do think this guy IS capable of a certain grace to his skating. Will be interesting if he can fully develop it. And that axel is BEAUTIFUL! I wonder why it hasn't been so easy for him to get 2 in a program? (I'm not a skater; no doubt this is hard... a stamina issue?)
chuckm, I never said the VDP should be pushed off the podium so do not put words in my mouth. Skating isnt just about a quad and 7 triples. I do not think just because Buttle does a 3x as one of five triples he should automatically get a medal, but he has great spins, artistry and beautiful programs to complent his jumps. Buttle didnt skate bad, but he is capable of more, he has it all, VDP doesn't. I dont know, maybe you are just a fan of VDP, I guess you could say I am a fan of Buttle and Mabee, or rather a fan of mens figure skating in Canada.
Did you even watch the event or did you just read the protocals?
Did you even watch the event or did you just read the protocals?
Well -- you said you wanted Mabee on the podium, so SOMEONE, either Buttle or VDP, had to be pushed off. I am inferring from your response (that you wouldn't push VDP off) that you'd be willing to sacrifice Buttle for Mabee.
Is that the case?
Also, you didn't respond to my question about the tech team and the underrotations. It does have some bearing on Mabee's results.
Is that the case?
Also, you didn't respond to my question about the tech team and the underrotations. It does have some bearing on Mabee's results.
IIn response to your tech team question, I was only able to watch the mens and dance events from Skate Canada, I will see that I find a recorded version and watch it frame by frame if I have to before I can say anything about the ladies event. No I do not think that they are wrong to "ding" other skaters if the jumps are under rotated as long as they “ding” ALL skaters with under rotated jumps, I dont care if you are the World or Olympic champion, silver or bronze medalist. But I still do not believe Mabee's 3x was under rotated and if it was, even just 1/8 or less, then Joubert quad was very under rotated, which is probably why he fell on it, but I never saw a fall on a 3t in the protocal. I even went back and watched it again. Which leads me back to my question that you never responded to... did you even watch the event, or just going by the protocols??
Are you certified as a technical specialist? Just because you think Mabee fully rotated the 3A doesn't make it so. From comments I've read on several boards, you're the only one disputing that call.
Skate Canada is OVER. Buttle won the bronze. Get over it.
Maybe your boy Mabee can beat Buttle at Nationals. IMO, Chan has a better chance of winning the title.
Skate Canada is OVER. Buttle won the bronze. Get over it.
Maybe your boy Mabee can beat Buttle at Nationals. IMO, Chan has a better chance of winning the title.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
If I speak for myself, under the 6.0 system, I would have given it to Mabee. However, I am not so conscious of the points system of the CoP. I just believe that when it takes place, the result is more genuine.
I see no reason for cheating here, but maybe sublime subjective scoring.
Joe
I see no reason for cheating here, but maybe sublime subjective scoring.
Joe
I didn't think you saw, but that's ok.
As for the specialist question, the answer is yes I am trained and certified.
I know Skate Canada is over, I watched it Sunday afternoon.
I personally can't wait for Nationals in January, Sandhu will be back in the mix. If everybody peaks in January the competition will be fabulous(IMO)!! Buttle, Sandhu, Chan, Mabee, Sawyer, Chipeur, so many to look forward to. Maybe if you are attending I will see you there!
As for the specialist question, the answer is yes I am trained and certified.
I know Skate Canada is over, I watched it Sunday afternoon.
I personally can't wait for Nationals in January, Sandhu will be back in the mix. If everybody peaks in January the competition will be fabulous(IMO)!! Buttle, Sandhu, Chan, Mabee, Sawyer, Chipeur, so many to look forward to. Maybe if you are attending I will see you there!
