Mens - Long Program

[wallylutz]

I know Amodio was the clear SP winner - and is a great skater overall - but that LP vehicle of his does him such a great disservice. As someone pointed out, its figure SKATING. Clearly Amodio can dance, but dancing on one spot several times throughout his program does not a skater make. His PCS should have been much lower. Combined with his tech mistakes today - the fall on the loop, edge call on his flip and his repetition of the lutz without doing a combo - he should not have gotten that high a score and won.

And the Russian politiking is at it again - Gachinski scored way too high for that program (PCS in particular - one Pluschenko was bad enough, but now another...sigh).

Agreed and the comments of BBC commentators don't help either by stating Amodio being more entertainig than Verner.

From a North American perspective, Amodio is an impressive show skater, but competitive skating? Well, it's rather underwhelming he is the European Champion. You kind have to weep for the future of this sport in Europe.

 

[gmyers]

One gets to know a name if he/she skates at big events and places high (or does something extraordinary). He was quite high in the ranks, therefore we talk about him.

The idea of getting a new coach is because there is no personal style, lots of arm waving and quite good technique. Of cause that does not mean, you can't make mistakes, Gachinski will learn that. But I doubt very much Mishin allows the skaters a personal style or even helps to develop that. I give him the edge in teaching young skaters good technique in the first place (we saw that in Gachinski's sp once again) - but nothing in choreography or style or even polishing the technique. Just my personal opinion.

Well Gachinksi has learned to do the difficult jumps and maybe he would continue to do them well if he left MIshin for a coach who could do better programs as a whole but maybe he wouldn't be so good with the jumps. I really meant that if not for Mishin who says Gachinski could do 3a's and quads? Not all skaters can switch coaches and keep all their jumps. Better to have jumps than good choreo. You want both of course. Yagudin left and went to Tarasova -but he had mich greater success at that point. I know Dmitriev Jr left recently and his work with his new coaches will be shown next sason.

 

[wallylutz]

Dissapointing night of skating overall. Joubert overmarked in the free and way overmarked in the short is pulled up to the podium via very generous PCS. Probably over the both the short and long Amodio was the best but he wasn't at his best tonight and there is a lot of standing on the one spot in the programme. It was close between between KVDP and Verner but Verner deserved it more as even though his jumps were on tonight he had the better all round package. It's nearly as if KVDP only practices jumps his spins and steps are so poor in comparsion. Gachinski over marked especially on PCS, have no idea what the choreography was all about.

Very disappointing for Brezina but he is coming back from injury. I am getting a bit tired of Fernandez having the same programme time for a change. Would like to have seen Menshovs performance but eurosport were only live for the last two groups.

I can't see there be any europeans on the podium in Tokyo

You speak my mind, I concur, though I missed Joubert's skate so can't comment on that.

KVDP is still using the same methodology as if we are under the 6.0 system and he only did one Quad and one Triple Axel - not much benefit to replace the 2nd Triple Axel with a Quad really, the point differential is not going to carry you over unless everything else is there as well. At this rate, KVDP would not be a serious contender unless he makes some drastic changes to keep up with time.

Verner always seems to blow it during crunch time after landing the big jumps, then missed the easier ones. He also had a chance to make it to the World podium in 2009 after Chan and Joubert left the door open but failed to take advantage of it. I think for Verner, he has fine overall qualities with no obvious weakness in any particular area so for him, it's mostly mental at this point. He needs to be able to remain composed and hold it together.

I thought Brezina improved a great deal in his overall skating skills this year including better overall presentation and being smoother in his skating. Last year, I felt he was more or less a jumping bean but despite the mistakes, I am impressed by the refined quality I saw yesterday. Personally, I feel if there is anyone who can compete with the North Americans and Japanese in the years to come, it will be him and no one else because Joubert, Verner and KVDP will retire fairly soon as they have been around for quite some time.

Fernandez needs to get a new program for sure, it's time for change.

Gachinski looks like a carbon copy of Plushenko, except the physical difference. It almost seems as though Mishin is good at cloning Plushenko look alike as opposed to cultivate the individuality of his students. See, there is not a single winning formula and I don't know if Mishin believes in that. And I am not sure this is really good for Russian skating in the long run when there doesn't seem to be any alternative or diversity in the way they raise and grow their talents. Can you imagine if Canadian Champions all look like Orser, Browning or Stojko? Each skater is an individual and you need to bring out their individuality and take advantage of their unique strengths. I think Japanese girls today benefit a great deal from watching Midori Ito, hence lots of them doing Triple Axels, but no one has been trying to clone Ito. Even Machiko Yamada doesn't clone her students the way Mishin does. Gachinski is showing very similar strengths and weaknesses as does Plushenko and it's not even funny, hence the "cloning comparison". Then again, if he wish to do well with a panel that doesn't fall under the Russian sphere of influence, he will have to up his game and we know in Worlds and other non-European competitions, you better believe there will be several judges who will hammer him and give him a serious reality check.

 

[bekalc]

^^^
I see Mishin as a Jump coach but he was unable to get the kinks out of Lambiel's 3A. Mishin has never produced any notable Ladies and it took a long while to get Plush to spin properly. Mishin, for me, is not the greatest coach.

Mishin never really focused much on ladies until recently. He has an extremely talented young Junior skater who took silver recently at the JGPF. She of course has amazing jumping technique.

Mishin's skill as a jumping coach cannot be denied. Its ridiculous to criticize him for Lambiel's jumping issues. He was never Lambiel's full time coach, or even someone who worked with Lambiel on a weekly basis. Mishin worked with Lambiel at some camps and taught him the quad, but he wasn't there every day or regularly in practice to make sure bad habits weren't being developed. Mishin even begged off on the camps, once Lambiel became a threat to Plushenko. The students who work with Mishin on a regular basis have close to perfect technique. And Lambiel himself felt that Mishin was so helpful to his jumps that he wanted to train with Mishin on a full time basis.

There are many things that can be said bout Mishin, but the man cannot be criticized as a technical coach. He just needs to let someone else, anyone else package his students.

 

[wallylutz]

The Japanese men rarely seem to all do well at the same time. I kind of think anything could happen.

Worlds will have 3 very strong Japanese, American and Canadian men. That's 3X3=9 competitors already who are not at the Europeans. Except Canada #3, it would not be easy for any of these Europeans to get through any of the other 8 skaters. So Bronze would be a really uphill battle, not only the Japanese men have to falter badly somehow, which is not very likely, you have to count on the Americans to do poorly as a group and the Canadians to bomb as well. Even if Amodio skates like he did in Bern, I don't think he will make Top 6 in Tokyo and how does he or anyone else get to the podium? I think it's quite unrealistic. Though I'd say Brian Joubert, Tomas Verner and Brezina will have a better potential if they can stay on their feet. I think the last 3 are much more serious competitors and can definitely challenge anyone if they are more or less clean.

 

[wallylutz]

There are 5 Program Components and they all mean something different.

All of which require the skater to actually skate, otherwise, you might just bring in ballerina and ask them to dance on ice instead.

 

[bekalc]

Gachinski looks like a carbon copy of Plushenko, except the physical difference. It almost seems as though Mishin is good at cloning Plushenko look alike as opposed to cultivate the individuality of his students. See, there is not a single winning formula and I don't know if Mishin believes in that. And I am not sure this is really good for Russian skating in the long run when there doesn't seem to be any alternative or diversity in the way they raise and grow their talents. Can you imagine if Canadian Champions all look like Orser, Browning or Stojko? Each skater is an individual and you need to bring out their individuality and take advantage of their unique strengths. I think Japanese girls today benefit a great deal from watching Midori Ito, hence lots of them doing Triple Axels, but no one has been trying to clone Ito. Even Machiko Yamada doesn't clone her students the way Mishin does. Gachinski is showing very similar strengths and weaknesses as does Plushenko and it's not even funny, hence the "cloning comparison". Then again, if he wish to do well with a panel that doesn't fall under the Russian sphere of influence, he will have to up his game and we know in Worlds and other non-European competitions, you better believe there will be several judges who will hammer him and give him a serious reality check.

I frankly don't understand the need to clone Plushenko too. And I really don't get it because I don't think Plushenko resembled Urmanov at all... Artur should be encouraged to be the next Artur, not the next Plushenko. Maybe though this will change.

Well Gachinksi has learned to do the difficult jumps and maybe he would continue to do them well if he left MIshin for a coach who could do better programs as a whole but maybe he wouldn't be so good with the jumps. I really meant that if not for Mishin who says Gachinski could do 3a's and quads? Not all skaters can switch coaches and keep all their jumps. Better to have jumps than good choreo. You want both of course. Yagudin left and went to Tarasova -but he had mich greater success at that point. I know Dmitriev Jr left recently and his work with his new coaches will be shown next sason.

Mishin isn't the only good jumping coach in Russia. The coach Artur Dmitriev went to could hardly be considered a bad jumping coach herself, seeing as that she developed Denis Ten as a kid, and Denis was known for having very good jumping technique. At the very least, Artur could just train the jumps he always did. That from what I understand is how Yagudin had it, he reportedly kept up all the exercises Mishin taught him etc. Its not like he allowed Tarasova to overhaul his jumping technique. :lol: Good jumps are important but really so is good choregraphy. I especially worry in this regard about young Elizaveta. She is a great young talent and it would be just a crying shame if she gets packaged more and more poorly.

 

[Violet Bliss]

There are 5 Program Components and they all mean something different.

All of which require the skater to actually skate, otherwise, you might just bring in ballerina and ask them to dance on ice instead.

:agree:

The Truth.

 

[jettasian]

I think it's obvious that Chan is technically superior to Amodio, but to say he is more artistic as well is preposterous. Amodio relates to the audience in a way Chan can only dream of. I'm not saying Chan is expressionless or wooden, because he has his charm, but his skating is much more reserved than Amodio's--he doesn't have the same ability to immerse himself in the character he's playing, or to draw the audience into his performance. And yes, of course this is just my opinion--but it's an opinion more grounded in reality than the claim that Chan is more demosntrative or a better natural entertainer than Amodio.

Eh...it depends on the music. It's competition vs performing Star on Ice. What Amodio did was pretty much just like performing on Star on Ice or the Gala stuff.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I think it's obvious that Chan is technically superior to Amodio, but to say he is more artistic as well is preposterous. Amodio relates to the audience in a way Chan can only dream of. I'm not saying Chan is expressionless or wooden, because he has his charm, but his skating is much more reserved than Amodio's--he doesn't have the same ability to immerse himself in the character he's playing, or to draw the audience into his performance. And yes, of course this is just my opinion--but it's an opinion more grounded in reality than the claim that Chan is more demosntrative or a better natural entertainer than Amodio.

Sorry, can't let this slide. "Yes, it's just my opinion, but my opinion is more right than yours" is not a brilliant debating tactic.

That said, yes - Amodio is a more natural entertaining and more demonstrative than Chan. Neither of those translate to more artistic however.

 

[seniorita]

Then he'd better start getting another coach, right?

Sure we will send him to Morozov who is packaging his students the best way.:sheesh:

Mishin never worked with Lambiel apart of some summer camps, where he basically fixed his quad, and you saw the results. In sickness and health Lambiel has it. When he was asked to train him fulltime Mishin was waiting Plush comeback and said no. You can say many things, but Mishin has studied the biomechanics of jumps like none, his books are used in russian universities and are translated in many languages.

He has made 3 Olympic Champions from scratch instead of taking accomplished skaters he invests on his skaters from young age and that is why he hasnt worked with ladies, he has explained it in many interviews that he cant have many skaters on a top level and he prefers not to train ladies. Yagudin didnt train his teqnique with Tarasova. If you see Plush and Yag jump side by side , they have the same set up, rotation and landing style. SO does Arthur.
The unrfortunate for Arthur is that he is blonde and trains with Mishin, if he was trained with Tarasova everybody would talk about a new clumpsy skater with future, now he is with Mishin everybody rush to mention the poor packaging, when he is only 17.. Menshov who is not trained by Mishin has more similarities to Plush skating style than Arthur.

I dont like the programs of Arthur at all. But his Narcissus program was amazing and highlighted his strengths if anyone bothered to see it in juniors.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think it's obvious that Chan is technically superior to Amodio, but to say he is more artistic as well is preposterous. Amodio relates to the audience in a way Chan can only dream of. I'm not saying Chan is expressionless or wooden, because he has his charm, but his skating is much more reserved than Amodio's--he doesn't have the same ability to immerse himself in the character he's playing, or to draw the audience into his performance. And yes, of course this is just my opinion--but it's an opinion more grounded in reality than the claim that Chan is more demosntrative or a better natural entertainer than Amodio.

I'm glad my preposterousness is supported by judges and those who actually watch him perform. Patrick doesn't need to dream about relating to the audience like Florent. Someone who was there wrote:

(Re: Patrick Chan's skate leaves spectators speechless) I was incredibly fortunate to have witnessed this performance live last night. It was like nothing I have ever seen in skating. The whole crowd was on their feet well before he was even finished.

Patrick was magic! I was embarrassed by the tears trickling down my face until I was in the ladies room afterward and realized that I was just one of many who had been crying. Well done Patrick you are truly a Canadian hero!

Amodio has not accomplished such a feat yet, the enthusiasm for his brand of musicality notwithstanding. I am not saying he's not a good skater but as of now he's not in the league of Chan and several others. Adoration for Amodio or any othe skater should not dismiss the fact that top skaters like Chan and Takahashi are highly respected and much loved in their own countries and more, deservedly.

BTW, Patrick Chan is younger than Amodio, has progressed and is progressing much faster so lots of luck for Florent to pass him. This applies to many up and comers such as Adam Rippon as well.

I just noticed your post has been quoted and contested a couple of times before this already. Sorry, I'm not picking on you but yours is a good representation of similar opinions and a good segue for a response.

 

[seniorita]

Even Machiko Yamada doesn't clone her students the way Mishin does.

Gachinski is showing very similar strengths and weaknesses as does Plushenko and it's not even funny, hence the "cloning comparison".

first of all which other students Mishin has cloned according to you apart from Arthur so you can make a statistic generalization?

Then again, if he wish to do well with a panel that doesn't fall under the Russian sphere of influence, he will have to up his game and we know in Worlds and other non-European competitions, you better believe there will be several judges who will hammer him and give him a serious reality check.

you see , this is the point an interesting post so far would be not taken seriously and thrown to garbage..
Arthur has competed to GP this season, Euros and Juniors Gp plus Juniors Worlds the last two seasons, I bet all the panels were under the russian of sphere influence.. Brrr...
Do you mind also young skaters like Hendrix or Rayan or just Arthur because he is from Russia?

 

[Holy]

Sorry, can't let this slide. "Yes, it's just my opinion, but my opinion is more right than yours" is not a brilliant debating tactic.

That said, yes - Amodio is a more natural entertaining and more demonstrative than Chan. Neither of those translate to more artistic however.

It's a good thing that I'm not trying to win a debate here then.

The issue of artistic vs demonstrative aside, would you really call Chan more artistic than Amodio? Because that's what the conversation was about. I could sort of see your point (if that's indeed the point you're making) if Chan was just as expressive as Amodio in his own, quieter and more nuanced way. But is he? Admittedly, I don't follow his career as closely as most of the Canadian posters here do, but so far I haven't been given cause to think so.

I'm glad my preposterousness is supported by judges and those who actually watch him perform. Patrick doesn't need to dream about relating to the audience like Florent. Someone who was there wrote:



Amodio has not accomplished such a feat yet, the enthusiasm for his brand of musicality notwithstanding. I am not saying he's not a good skater but as of now he's not in the league of Chan and several others. Adoration for Amodio or any othe skater should not dismiss the fact that top skaters like Chan and Takahashi are highly respected and much loved in their own countries and more, deservedly.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing here, but never mind. Patrick Chan is an amazing skater, perhaps the best in the world, and can of course leave a lasting impression. That doesn't make him able to play a character. His presence is remarkable because he is always himself--which is completely different from the way chameleonic skaters like Amodio, Schultheiss and Lambiel come to inhabit their programs.

What you seem to take personal offence to is the statement that there's something lowly Amodio is good at that Chan doesn't have. Please realise that Chan cannot be the best at everything, that the two of them are different people, and that you're trying to "prove" Chan's superiority at something he just doesn't do. He's different from Amodio and affects the audience in different ways.

BTW, Patrick Chan is younger than Amodio, has progressed and is progressing much faster so lots of luck for Florent to pass him. This applies to many up and comers such as Adam Rippon as well.

This is the sort of pointless defensiveness I'm talking about.

 

[seniorita]

I'm glad my preposterousness is supported by judges and those who actually watch him perform. Patrick doesn't need to dream about relating to the audience like Florent. Someone who was there wrote:

(Re: Patrick Chan's skate leaves spectators speechless) I was incredibly fortunate to have witnessed this performance live last night. It was like nothing I have ever seen in skating. The whole crowd was on their feet well before he was even finished.

Patrick was magic! I was embarrassed by the tears trickling down my face until I was in the ladies room afterward and realized that I was just one of many who had been crying. Well done Patrick you are truly a Canadian hero!

No doubt this happened but judges and the letter can only support an opinion not a fact, I will write you the same letter and change the name of Chan with Stoijko/ Plushenko/ Yagudin/ Lysacek or Daisuke and according to my letter and the judges marks it would be also true. Can you tell me then they are less artistic than Chan?

 

[Violet Bliss]

No doubt this happened but judges and the letter can only support an opinion not a fact, I will write you the same letter and change the name of Chan with Stoijko/ Plushenko/ Yagudin/ Lysacek or Daisuke and according to my letter and the judges marks it would be also true. Can you tell me then they are less artistic than Chan?

Why dismiss and discredit people's real feelings and reactions to a performance? I was responding to the assertion that Patrick could only dream of connecting to the audience and that he didn't have any ability to draw the audience into his performance when in fact he has roused an arena full of people to their feet and moved them to tears. Why do you need to deny this fact? It's not an opinion but a happening shared by thousands present and more via videos.

I will never dismiss how you feel about your hero. Who am I to deny you're touched if you say you are? What I object to and argue against is definitive statement that an extremely accomplished and well loved skater is devoid of emotion and audience connection in his performance when facts demonstrate the opposite.

What Patrick has done does not preclude anybody else to relate to and move their audience. Nobody has an exclusive rights on that. Others have done it and some others will do it.

 

[seniorita]

Why do you need to deny this fact? It's not an opinion but a happening shared by thousands present and more via videos.

EEEEK?? I didnt deny Chan(isnt this a strong word?).
the debate was if Chan or Amodio are more artistic and I just told you that if you depend on audience and judges this can apply to many skaters, even the ones you dont think are artistic enough but someone else does.

What I object to and argue against is definitive statement that an extremely accomplished and well loved skater is devoid of emotion and audience connection in his performance when facts demonstrate the opposite.

yeap I agree, and thanx I will keep this for future reference.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Chan can't do what Amodio does. Just as Amodio can't do what Chan does. They both deserve to score higher than each other in different areas. There are 5 Program Components and they all mean something different.

All of which require the skater to actually skate, otherwise, you might just bring in ballerina and ask them to dance on ice instead.

Amodio IS skating. See the skates on his feet? A ballerina wouldn't be able to move like that - they aren't trained to dance on ice in skates. If he was just standing around doing nothing that would be one thing but Amodio is creating a narrative and using his whole body. Are you also going to criticize Kurt Browning's Casablanca for the big "posing section" in his program?

 

[gmyers]

sometimes amodio can make you forget he is wearing skates- and that can be a major compliment to him. Because of the moves he is doing on ice on skates are hard for some to do when they are not on skates. LOL. It is like when Domnina and Shabalin won the compulsary dance at the olympics. That wasn't politics it was because they were so good and easy on their skates that it seemed like were doing a tango on a floor not ice.

 

[colleen o'neill]

I've been a fan of Browning for years and yes , that has always been something I disliked about his Casablanca program.

About Amodio...Last year was the first time I'd seen him and I was very excited about his emergence. His jumps were good ,he was expressive , musical .. a bit unpolished , but just dripping with potential. I didn't much like his programs . Well, the FP particularly sticks in my mind . I thought it was a bit juvenile , relied too much on his acting ability ,and I'm firmly against face paint, glued on moustaches and such in competition skating ( exhibitions are another matter ). I remember commenting to my sister ( my main watching buddy ) ..What a talent..imagine if he gets some better choreography next year !

I was upset when I heard he went to Morozov, because I don't like NM's coaching style generally , and although he can have some very nice choreographic flashes , I usually dislike his work. (For many reasons that I won't go into here ,not wanting to take the thread off on another tack.)

So while I heartily agree with blades as to Florent's talent and abilities , I feel these are being used in the cheapest , easiest way ( which makes me sad to see ).I'm afraid this could mean that we'll just see more of the same in future which will be boring for me and will stunt Florent's development.:disapp: