Men's Long Program

[bekalc]

I have an issue with your incorrect use of the figure skating vocabulary and not bothering to get your facts straight before complaining. Falling on a jump is not a missed element. Missed element means omission, falling isn't an omission. Only an omission had a deduction of 0.5, a number which you used incorrectly in your complaint. You were applying the wrong deduction and not distinguishing the difference between elements and now, using confusing & incorrect figure skating terms that would confuse even more people who either weren't exposed to the 6.0 system or have forgot about it.

Here is the bottom line, for your whining to have any merit under 6.0 system re: 2010 Skate Canada results, you will have to justify Chan's SP placement to 6th or lower, not whether he is 4th or 5th. Know that the 6th place guy didn't have a Quad or Triple-Triple in the SP and would have a 0.3 deduction for the mistake on his combination spin and at the time, and never placed in the Top 10 of the world. Even if he were to skate clean, he would lucky to be above 5.0 for Required Elements without a Quad or Triple-Triple, not to mention combination spin was seriously messed up and the mandatory deduction that came with it. There was simply no chance for Chan to place 6th or lower.

It amazes me we have to spend so much time discussing the 2010 results in the 2011 thread. :scowl: I think someone ought to start a thread in the Edge called: I hate Patrick Chan because... thread and keep all complaints there.

I don't hate Patrick Chan. Just because I disagree with some of his results once in awhile, doesn't mean I hate him. I also talk about how ridiculous it was for Yu-na to win the Long in Torino 2010 worlds and that she shouldn't have had that big PCS lead over Asada. Do I hate Yu-na too. Oh wait I was rooting for Yu-na to win Olympic Gold. I've complained about Lambiel and Daisuke getting away with messy skates.

Its not about Patrick Chan for me. Wally. its about the fact that if any skater can get over there and wipe out 4 times, and still win over very good skaters, than whats the freakin point of even watching? Whats the point of having the elements too becasue obviously how they execute elements means NOTHING. That's my anger, and its got nothing to do with Patrick. I dont' have a problem with Patrick he didn't make the system. But i have a problem with either the judging or the system. Its going to destroy this sport if results like that happen all the time.

And who says that Alban wouldn't have been in fifth behind Chan. Yeah they would have given him 5.8s in Presentation but if the judges had to gie Chan less than 5.0 in tech, he'd be in trouble. At the end of the day one error on the jump isn't the same as multiple errors in the short.

 

[wallylutz]

I don't hate Patrick Chan. Just because I disagree with some of his results once in awhile, doesn't mean I hate him.

Shocking, eh... Well, I have received several PM about you, most recent one last night. Many people here think you are a Chan hater and worse, don't even bother to educate yourself correctly before complaining. I don't know if you are or not and my suggestion for starting a dedicated hate Chan thread wasn't directed at you necessarily. In any event, I wasn't being serious but sarcastic.

I also talk about how ridiculous it was for Yu-na to win the Long in Torino 2010 worlds and that she shouldn't have had that big PCS lead over Asada. Do I hate Yu-na too. Oh wait I was rooting for Yu-na to win Olympic Gold. I've complained about Lambiel and Daisuke getting away with messy skates.

I guess people could misunderstood you for a Chan hater because of all the skaters above, only Chan gets the special treatment from you of continuous beating of the dead horse over and over and over. Did you continuously complain about Kim winning the FS at 2010 Worlds? Nope. Don't tell me because if you had, you would have long been on the hunt list of the Bots.

Its not about Patrick Chan for me. Wally. its about the fact that if any skater can get over there and wipe out 4 times, and still win over very good skaters, than whats the freakin point of even watching?

The point is to educate yourself correctly and try to understand the system. Occasionally, the results could be difficult to understand and some could say, puzzling. An one off extreme example doesn't make the rule. Chan's only ever win with three+ falls is at SC 2010, it simply is untrue in the other competitions he entered. You seem to think because an outlier happened that it is necessarily true for all future competitions as well.

Whats the point of having the elements too becasue obviously how they execute elements means NOTHING. That's my anger, and its got nothing to do with Patrick. I dont' have a problem with Patrick he didn't make the system. But i have a problem with either the judging or the system. Its going to destroy this sport if results like that happen all the time

I think gkelly's advice applies to you and I quote:

Well, you don't have to like it. But it exists. So your choices would seem to be learn to appreciate it, ignore it try to enjoy the skating apart from the scoring, enjoy hating it, or stop watching current skating and enjoy the old videos. Your choice.

I'll add anger management to the list if it is driving you nuts, due to the results of one event.

 

[bekalc]

I guess people could misunderstood you for a Chan hater because of all the skaters above, only Chan gets the special treatment from you of continuous beating of the dead horse over and over and over. Did you continuously complain about Kim winning the FS at 2010 Worlds? Nope. Don't tell me because if you had, you would have long been on the hunt list of the Bots.

I bring up Kim beating Asada in the long all the time.

The point is to educate yourself correctly and try to understand the system. Occasionally, the results could be difficult to understand and some could say, puzzling. An one off extreme example doesn't make the rule. Chan's only ever win with three+ falls is at SC 2010, it simply is untrue in the other competitions he entered. You seem to think because an outlier happened that it is necessarily true for all future competitions as well.

Patrick would have won Cup of Russia with 4 falls, if it weren't for the fact that he did too many combos. He lost that on a technicality. And I don't need to be educated on the system. I've had people like you explain it to me all the time. And I can still say I hate it, I think its wrong that people who make multiple major errors can be given huge buffers in PCS becasue it makes a good portion of the score pre set.

I think its going to destroy the sport. When can you people realize that there's no amount of numbers and rules that you can show people like me for me to think this type of thing is a good thing?

And Chan fans saying that people not liking him getting huge buffers on PCS, no matter what he does on the ice must mean that we all just hate Patrick for Patrick is not even true. He's a beautiful skater (notice how I didn't complain about his results at this Skate Canada). I enjoy watching Patrick when he skates well. But I don't enjoy Patrick winning when he skates poorly and others skate well. And I certainly don't enjoy Chan fans throwing the rule book and not understanding why the rest of us our upset, think its bad for the sport, and then we all get told it must just be Patrick we hate. When most of us would hate those type of results for any skater.

I've brought up in the past a lot Alissa's nationals win, Kostner's silver medal at 2007 all as examples of not good things about the system. Do I hate both girls too, or rather do perhaps i have a problem with the system. Notice though how I"m more than willing to compliment said skaters when they skate well.

Lambiel was one of the most beautiful skaters around, and I loved his skating. But I am thrilled to see Lambiel on the professional ranks right now because i'm sorry I couldn't stand Lambiel making multiple major errors and still getting these huge PCS. Yes he's a beautiful skater and one of the most artistic skaters around. Yes I could watch Lambiel more than most of the others. But this is still a sport, execution of the elements that make it a sport matters. It would have been a travesty if Lambiel had gotten bronze at the Olympics for both those two skates combined.

And if before you think I'm just falls take you out of it completely, I'll say I would have been cool with Daisuke wining the Gold. He was the only one of the three who had real artistry, he fell but yes on a quad attempt that Evan didn't even bother to try. I thought it was ridiculous how Daisuke got called for some jumps that Evan didn't do. I could have lived with Evan winning as well, but I'm not one who says a fall automatically takes you out. But once you start getting into multiple falls, multiple glaring errors thats where I'm sorry I reach my limit.

And I want to say this me wanting to see Lambiel in the pro circuits is more about the scoring system, than it is about Stephane. If I could just enjoy watching Stephane skate and fell confident that the total score would reflect the fact that he was missing a lot of the jump elements the other guys had. Than it would be okay this is nice. But the way the system works with points for falls, GOE well that doesn't happen. THAT's my issue and its a shame about the system. And ticks me off that I had to be happy about one of my favorite skaters going pro. Because if Lambiel was competing in a system that would hit him hard for thoes multiple jump errors, I could sit there watch him skate, pray that he lands those jumps and win . But watching him make multiple errors and knowing he's going to end up beating guys who executed a lot better.. In fact thats something some of you guys don't get. That there are actually those of us who care about the sport and the integrity of the sport than we care about any particular one skater. And we ask how the sport can be taken seriously if executing the elements poorly doesn't matter?

 

[Violet Bliss]

bekalc, if you care so much about the sport, why do you dwell on one event from one year ago from Chan and never consider all the positive contributions he has made to the sport? He has raised the bar so high and we are seeing the immediate effects from the young skaters who are promising to have both high technical contents and great skating skills with compex choreographies. Gone are the days of stroking between jumps with some poor spinning thrown in. Even great skating with just quads missing is not enough to win anymore.

Are you going to continue to complain about an one off event years from now after Chan has concluded a brilliant and influential career in figure skating? Every great skater has at least one disastrous or controversial event in their career but it does not define the skater's overall achievements or the scoring system.

 

[Spun Silver]

It wasn't one off, it was two off (incl. Cup of Russia which he almost won with 4 falls overall) as bekalc pointed out. I admire Patrick immensely and this isn't an anti-Chan point, it's a point about the COP. Those two events in 2010 had the skating world in an uproar and I'm afraid it will be a long time before they are forgotten, and understandably so.

 

[Bluebonnet]

It wasn't one off, it was two off (incl. Cup of Russia which he almost won with 4 falls overall) as bekalc pointed out. I admire Patrick immensely and this isn't an anti-Chan point, it's a point about the COP. Those two events in 2010 had the skating world in an uproar and I'm afraid it will be a long time before they are forgotten, and understandably so.

Which has taken us back to post #310 from Bruin714 - the solution of preventing wins from multi-falls, which our GS very own BoP hasn't shared his wisdom on why he thinks it was not a good idea?

 

[evangeline]

Shocking, eh... Well, I have received several PM about you, most recent one last night. Many people here think you are a Chan hater and worse, don't even bother to educate yourself correctly before complaining. I don't know if you are or not and my suggestion for starting a dedicated hate Chan thread wasn't directed at you necessarily. In any event, I wasn't being serious but sarcastic.


I guess people could misunderstood you for a Chan hater because of all the skaters above, only Chan gets the special treatment from you of continuous beating of the dead horse over and over and over. Did you continuously complain about Kim winning the FS at 2010 Worlds? Nope. Don't tell me because if you had, you would have long been on the hunt list of the Bots.

Actually (not to sound creepy or anything), bekalc does bring up her beef with Kim winning the FS at 2010 quite often--not only on GS, but also on FSU as well. Just sayin'....

Look, I don't like it when bekalc constantly knocks Lambiel's messy win over Daisuke at the 2007 GPF either, but it seems pretty clear to me that his/her displeasure at messy skates winning is a matter of principle as opposed to a dislike directed at a certain skater.

 

[dorispulaski]

Well bekalc, you could all watch ice dance. When Charlie White had 3 major messups in the OD at CoR in 2008, D&W were in 8th place out of 10 teams in that segment, finishing 3rd overall after finishing 2nd in the FD. When P&B fell in the FD last year, they ended up in 4th overall instead of 2nd. Major deductions are taken in dance for major messups, and they have ramifications in the overall results. Even under 6.0, it was falls & messups by their competitors in the OD that led to B&A's silver medal.

Another reason to love dance

 

[Bruin714]

Which has taken us back to post #310 from Bruin714 - the solution of preventing wins from multi-falls, which our GS very own BoP hasn't shared his wisdom on why he thinks it was not a good idea?

:thumbsup: Thanks Bluebonnet!

 

[Violet Bliss]

Which has taken us back to post #310 from Bruin714 - the solution of preventing wins from multi-falls, which our GS very own BoP hasn't shared his wisdom on why he thinks it was not a good idea?

Except there is no demonstrated need for such prevention, or that the proposal will be effective without unintended and undesirable consequences. Why choose to lower the river instead of raising the bridge, especially when there is no neccesity for such measure?

 

[bekalc]

Are you going to continue to complain about an one off event years from now after Chan has concluded a brilliant and influential career in figure skating? Every great skater has at least one disastrous or controversial event in their career but it does not define the skater's overall achievements or the scoring system.

Well I'd love to agree that Chan's disasterous win doesn't define the scoring system, if Chan fans said look. That was a bad skate, yes the judges judged wrong. But instead all I hear is how Patrick deserves those big PCS even when he falls multiple times, and have the rule book thrown back at me. And so if your going to say that those kind of scores/results are by the system, I'll criticize the system.
So the above is the difference between that result in Skate Canada/ Or Lambiel winning GPF 2007. And lets say Yagudin beating Abt with a messy skate in Europeans.

Because one group says 6.0 judges decided and did wrong. And another says our mathematical system says this and its perfectly right and fair that this result came about. He deserves all kinds of points for P/E when he falls all over the place. And that's where I go really and get upset.

Chan fans can't have it both ways they can't say that well its the system accept it, and then not expect that we are going to all use said result to criticize the system because plenty hated the result.

But who the heck says that it defines Patrick for me. Patrick is a gorgeous skater and I enjoy watching him skate. Lambiel winning 2007 GPF or some of his crazy scores doesn't define Lambiel.

 

[Spun Silver]

^ Well put. Some posters have been vituperous and insulting about Patrick as if it were his fault that he wins. But you're making a logical point and are not attempting to put down Patrick at all as far as I can see.

 

[fscric]

If people thought it's the system's fault, then stop bashing the skater but I know it's a futile request.

 

[prettykeys]

Did you continuously complain about Kim winning the FS at 2010 Worlds? Nope. Don't tell me because if you had, you would have long been on the hunt list of the Bots.

Umm...

Actually (not to sound creepy or anything), bekalc does bring up her beef with Kim winning the FS at 2010 quite often--not only on GS, but also on FSU as well. Just sayin'....

Yes!

^ Well put. Some posters have been vituperous and insulting about Patrick as if it were his fault that he wins. But you're making a logical point and are not attempting to put down Patrick at all as far as I can see.

EXACTLY!

That is why us YuNa bots have not descended upon beka. She makes her points from a logical, not hateful, point of view. beka can criticize YuNa's 2010 FS win all she wants; she's not going to get a single tongue-lashing from me.

On the other hand, wallylutz, you seem to have some real beef with beka. You and the cowardly gossips who don't have the self-esteem to post their thoughts publicly on the forum.

Love, Yuna fan prettykeys

 

[prettykeys]

Which has taken us back to post #310 from Bruin714 - the solution of preventing wins from multi-falls, which our GS very own BoP hasn't shared his wisdom on why he thinks it was not a good idea?

And, to answer your question re: progressive punishments...probably one of the reasons is that after 1 or 2 falls a skater may get to the point where they decide it's no longer worth it to try anymore jumps and they might as well skate the rest of the program not risking anything.

Which would be sad.

Lose-lose for both the skater and the audience.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I am not a Lysacek fan and I have thrown the book at his naysayers plenty of times, not that it was even the same book. I didn't like his skating, would not rewatch his Olympics performance, but I congratulated his win and regard it as fair and square. I thought Takahashi won Worlds fair and square too though I really do like his skating. It's not about my fandom. I have favorites I know and accept will never win no matter how much I enjoy their skating, because I know they will never score high enough by the rules. I choose whom I like but rules are rules in a competition and they determine the winner.

When COP was revised for 2010-2011 season, some of the changes were made to encourage more quad attempts, yes attempts, and hopefully more quad successes as well. TPTB heard the skaters, coaches, and fans who wanted quads to return to Mens' skating. Guess what? The revision was a success. We are seeing so many more quads now that they are a requisite to win or just medal in any Men's event. The young ones are having various quads in their arsenals. Chan's win at SC 2010 was not pretty but he won by the rules. There were no corruptions, no scandals, nor favoritism, even though these are alleged by those who simply do not like the results. They stay bitter a year later and insist it's worth dwelling on forever as the darkest day of skating history that mars the sport forever. Why should the system be overhauled just because this one event displeases some people? The ISU achieved its goal, very quickly, with the new rules. By the end of the season, Chan had several amazing historical skates. Not bad at all, such end results. Even better, he can't rest on his glory and big gaps because there are many catching up with their big jumps and brilliant skating skills, if not now, soon. Mens skating will never be the same again. All in all, the changes are a great success, even if an ugly win happened early in the season in which they were put in place. Guess what? Ugly wins happen all the time in all kinds of sports. They are as valid as the pretty ones.

It is ridiculous to make changes to a system just to prevent a certain kind of ugly but rare win. Will it have to react to another different kind of ugly win when it happens as a consequence of new changes?

 

[Spun Silver]

This seems like a very inconsistent post. You explain, rightly, how a rule change (inspired by an "ugly win") produced more quads and more exciting programs. Then you protest that we can't always be changing the rules because of ugly wins. I don't follow. Why not have another successful rule change if it's warranted?

Some of Patrick's fans seem awfully defensive to me. If you think you have it bad, try being a Lysacek fan! (I'm not, but having been a Cohen fan I have a pretty good idea what it's like.)

 

[Violet Bliss]

What I say is that the rule changes achieved ISU's goal, spectucularly in fact. An ugly win along the way is too minor to focus on and to revise a successful revision for. Ugly wins are regularly expected and accepted in all kinds of sports without lasting bitterness and outrage and within the figure skating fandom, not all react so negatively to this one ugly win either. Some of us really enjoy the many pretty ones.

 

[Spun Silver]

Didn't an "ugly win" in Vancouver have something to do with the successful rule change favoring quads?

It's a lot easier to accept occasional ugly wins when you're playing or watching a sport with a 200-game season like baseball. Or a non-judged sport. I don't think gymnastics or snowboarding fans would be happy about ugly wins, i.e., wrong calls or wins based on inexplicable rules, any more than many skating fans are.

Anyway, sports are nothing without passionate fans so this whole worry about critical fans is misplaced, in my view. Don't you ever throw a can at the TV? (*JOKE*)

 

[fscric]

Some of Patrick's fans seem awfully defensive to me.

Isn't it a common trait as a fan? I hardly think fans of any skater (and in this instance Patrick's fans) would sit back and enjoy the relentless and most of the time irrational hatred directed at Patrick just because he won over the other fans' favourites.