Men's Long Program

[Spun Silver]

You are right and again, visceral memory of being a Sasha fan during the 2006 Olympics reminds me of that. But it would still be nice if Patrick's fans could distinguish between criticism of the COP and criticism of Patrick. Some critical fans confuse the two, but others really don't. But anyway, my sympathies. It's miserable to see your favorite under constant attack.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Didn't an "ugly win" in Vancouver have something to do with the successful rule change favoring quads?

That was not an ugly win. It was clean and quite amazing. Just not to my taste.

t's a lot easier to accept occasional ugly wins when you're playing or watching a sport with a 200-game season like baseball. Or a non-judged sport. I don't think gymnastics or snowboarding fans would be happy about ugly wins, i.e., wrong calls or wins based on inexplicable rules, any more than many skating fans are.

There were no wrong calls, misculculations, unjustiable grades, etc. in Chan's SC2010 win. He won with the highest total scores as per rules. He compensated for the visible but non disastrous mistakes (under the new rules) with excellent exucations of the rest of the very difficult programs, and the other competitors could not take advantage of his mistake to do better. Fair and square.

Anyway, sports are nothing without passionate fans so this whole worry about critical fans is misplaced, in my view. Don't you ever throw a can at the TV? (*JOKE*)

No, never. They are hobbies and entertainments and supposed to be fun. I enjoy whatever made me a fan to begin with. I only cheer, not curse. If disappointed, there is always the next time.

 

[bekalc]

Umm...

Yes!

EXACTLY!

That is why us YuNa bots have not descended upon beka. She makes her points from a logical, not hateful, point of view. beka can criticize YuNa's 2010 FS win all she wants; she's not going to get a single tongue-lashing from me.

On the other hand, wallylutz, you seem to have some real beef with beka. You and the cowardly gossips who don't have the self-esteem to post their thoughts publicly on the forum.

Love, Yuna fan prettykeys

The thing is the reason I'm bringing up Yu-na, Lambiel, Daisuke (yes)and Patrick is because all three of them are great skaters who deserve high PCS. Now of the three skaters I can actually understand why Chan fans feel like I hate Patrick because I have been most critical of him, and some of his statements. This being said I want to make it clear Patrick IS a gorgeous skaters, its just at times his scores.

But I digress these skaters have built into things about their skating that lead to high PCS over others. But then again, what happens when they don't skate really well? And someone who maybe with good skating skills (Figure skating is not all jumping and If Chan had fallen four times and beaten KVP, I wouldn't be nearly as upset as him beating an Oda). For me the 2010 worlds free is such a great example because Mao Asada is not just some skater. And yes her program wasn't the best and she (an underotation) but she really skated lights out and Yu-na was really not her self. My question why isn't there room in the PCS/system to actually acknowledge something like this? Its a real problem/issue in the system.

This being said there is a lot like I about Patrick's skating although at times his comments were much (he's getting better). He's improved quite a lot technically and artistically and thats saying something for someone who is already getitng high points from the judges. Now I notice he is skating with his entire body which is beautiful to see. I was amazed by his skate this week even with the falls.

I will say that I don't blame Kim/Patrick any of them for having bad skates. Bad skates happen. In Chan's case he was trying to add quads in too. So was bound to have some shaky skates. Its just that when your putting in stuff and trying to get inconsisent on it, you should be willing to accept it may hurt some results.

And I will say this, even after I knew the results of Skate Canada last year I saw Patrick's long skate and thought he skated beautifully. And I still remember thinking about it. Its really not about hating Patrick's skating or thinking his skating has no merits. However I will say this I'm human and this is hardly fair to Patrick, but when the judge always give him the benefit of the doubt no matter what he does, and when Patrick says things like the Skate Canada win is the best for me, and you see others not getting credit. It can be difficult to root for Patrick. And that's really not fair. Patrick has calmed down some of the statements, and or I just accept he make some. And I actually really felt bad for Patrick when Patrick said fans woiuld be on him for this win at Skate Canada. (No Patrick, I had no problem with that result). So I'm trying to seperate the skater from the system/marks. And he skates so beautifully, just wow.

This being said it seems like given Javier and Daisuke's PCS that the judges have decided to bring others closer to Patrick, ie so if Patrick doesn't skate well others do significantly more tech wise, the other one will win. Which is the main thing I wanted. Although I thought Javier's PCS were a little high...

 

[MissIzzy]

Looking at the scoring protocols for the SP of Cup of China, and they're giving Artur Gachinski positive GOE's for shakily landed jumps. So we can stop hating on Chan now. I've seen nothing in his protocols holding him up that blatantly. Poor Patrick had his chance, but the location of the Olympics have moved...

 

[bekalc]

Looking at the scoring protocols for the SP of Cup of China, and they're giving Artur Gachinski positive GOE's for shakily landed jumps. So we can stop hating on Chan now. I've seen nothing in his protocols holding him up that blatantly. Poor Patrick had his chance, but the location of the Olympics have moved...

:lol: And I must say 100% prefer Chan to Artur. But, that again is another problem with the system.

 

[wallylutz]

The thing is the reason I'm bringing up Yu-na, Lambiel, Daisuke (yes)and Patrick is because all three of them are great skaters who deserve high PCS. Now of the three skaters I can actually understand why Chan fans feel like I hate Patrick because I have been most critical of him, and some of his statements.

Thank you for admitting that you have been going after Chan much more often and aggressively than you ever did with Yu-Na Kim and Stephane Lambiel. Now that's clear, so that we can't be accused of hallucinating things. Just imagine if you had gone after Kim with the same aggressiveness that you ever did with Chan, what would happen?

 

[wallylutz]

Well bekalc, you could all watch ice dance. When Charlie White had 3 major messups in the OD at CoR in 2008, D&W were in 8th place out of 10 teams in that segment, finishing 3rd overall after finishing 2nd in the FD. When P&B fell in the FD last year, they ended up in 4th overall instead of 2nd. Major deductions are taken in dance for major messups, and they have ramifications in the overall results. Even under 6.0, it was falls & messups by their competitors in the OD that led to B&A's silver medal.

Another reason to love dance

Can't find the video on youtube, though Grishuk/Platov used to fall in the OD at the 1997-98 GPF and still remained in 1st or later fell again at the OD the 1998 Europeans and still won.

You must be forgetting how stable the Ice Dance ranking used to be, from CD to FD.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Except there is no demonstrated need for such prevention, or that the proposal will be effective without unintended and undesirable consequences. Why choose to lower the river instead of raising the bridge, especially when there is no neccesity for such measure?

Well, I think it won't hurt to have one like it in place. I don't see the negativity on this rule change if we changed it, except the numbers might need some adjustment in order to balance the numbers on rewarding jumps. We've been raising the bridge all along, it's better to open the dam and lower the water somehow. I'm sure Patrick Chan won't be the first one who'd suffer from this change. Well, enough from me on a non-existing rule.

 

[wallylutz]

Well, I think it won't hurt to have one like it in place. I don't see the negativity on this rule change if we changed it, except the numbers might need some adjustment in order to balance the numbers on rewarding jumps. We've been raising the bridge all along, it's better to open the dam and lower the water somehow. I'm sure Patrick Chan won't be the first one who'd suffer from this change. Well, enough from me on a non-existing rule.

Then you would have several Pairs team complaining about the value of their SBS jumps going negative because deductions wiped out any values they may have after the falls and negative GOE.

Such rule change would result in torrent of complaints due to the unintended persons being hurt and targeted yet that annoying flying squirrel remains unfazed by this bubble gum trap.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Well, I think it won't hurt to have one like it in place. I don't see the negativity on this rule change if we changed it, except the numbers might need some adjustment in order to balance the numbers on rewarding jumps. We've been raising the bridge all along, it's better to open the dam and lower the water somehow. I'm sure Patrick Chan won't be the first one who'd suffer from this change. Well, enough from me on a non-existing rule.

I am opposing the proposals on principle, by looking at their merits as well as the big picture, the forest instead of a tree. I am certainly not worried about Chan's chances even if changes are made to target him. They already did that with rewarding quads per desires and lobbying of quadsters and their fans, and with downgrading a whole footwork sequence into level one for all and cutting out one all together in the SP. It was a two pronged approach to keep Chan down - raising the value of what he didn't have and lowering that of his specialty. Look what happened?

Chan, like all true champions, will find ways to win, with talents and dedication, as well as intelligence, adapting to whatever rules in place. There are good reasons he works with Lori Nichols, the champions' choreographer. Witness guys are doing quads and a few are doing the 3 jump combo with the 1/2 Loop after Chan/Nichol team led the way.

No, I don't question and oppose most proposals for changes to the rules in reaction to Chan's SC 2010 win because of my fandom, which does not include fear and protectionism. Have I ever proposed any pro Chan changes, or protested endlessly about those changes seemingly made to keep him from winning? As I have said, bring on the changes. Chan will not be the one to pay the price. I'm simply against non productive reactionary messy efforts with both predictable ill effects and unintended consequences that will bring about new belly aching.

eta. I see Wallylutz already expressed similarly opinion more eloquently in so few words.

 

[Bruin714]

Chan, like all true champions, will find ways to win, with talents and dedication, as well as intelligence, adapting to whatever rules in place. There are good reasons he works with Lori Nichols, the champions' choreographer. Witness guys are doing quads and a few are doing the 3 jump combo with the 1/2 Loop after Chan/Nichol team led the way.

What's the rationale/strategy for adding a 3 jump combo with 1/2 Loop?

 

[Mathman]

What's the rationale/strategy for adding a 3 jump combo with 1/2 Loop?

I think the idea is that then you can do a Salchow or a flip as the second jump.

 

[Violet Bliss]

ISU made provision to count the 1/2Lp as 1Lp in a combo so Salchow or flip may be added as the last jump of the 3-jump combo. Such a combo can have a higher value then the usual 3+2T+2Lp (after 3Ts are maxed out in 2-jump combos). But last season Chan was the only one to take advantage of the new change. This year at least Rippon is doing it too.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

What's the rationale/strategy for adding a 3 jump combo with 1/2 Loop?

Because he's repeating the quad, there's no way for him to include two triple triple combos as repeating the lutz is his choice as opposed to the triple toe. The 3Lz+1Lo+3S has a higher base value than a 3Lz+2t+2loop/toe.

 

[Bruin714]

ISU made provision to count the 1/2Lp as 1Lp in a combo so Salchow or flip may be added as the last jump of the 3-jump combo. Such a combo can have a higher value then the usual 3+2T+2Lp (after 3Ts are maxed out in 2-jump combos). But last season Chan was the only one to take advantage of the new change. This year at least Rippon is doing it too.

I see... thanks

 

[Violet Bliss]

Re 1/2Lp=1Lp rule, I've always wondered if a 1 1/2Lp in a combo may be counted as a 2LP. Anybody knows the answer?

 

[Bluebonnet]

Chan, like all true champions, will find ways to win, with talents and dedication, as well as intelligence, adapting to whatever rules in place. There are good reasons he works with Lori Nichols, the champions' choreographer. Witness guys are doing quads and a few are doing the 3 jump combo with the 1/2 Loop after Chan/Nichol team led the way.

I totally agree on these!

Because he's repeating the quad, there's no way for him to include two triple triple combos as repeating the lutz is his choice as opposed to the triple toe. The 3Lz+1Lo+3S has a higher base value than a 3Lz+2t+2loop/toe.

Brilliant!

 

[wallylutz]

Re 1/2Lp=1Lp rule, I've always wondered if a 1 1/2Lp in a combo may be counted as a 2LP. Anybody knows the answer?

There is no such thing as 1.5 Lp. Regular 2Lp can be combined with a toe or loop jump but not a salchow/flip jump due to the position of the landing foot and edge.

 

[Violet Bliss]

There is no such thing as 1.5 Lp. Regular 2Lp can be combined with a toe or loop jump but not a salchow/flip jump due to the position of the landing foot and edge.

I am inventing it so a Salchow or Flip jump can follow, basically adding another rotation to the 1/2 Loop to get the same position and edge of the landing foot.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Any jump is allowed to be landed on the opposing foot, but good luck trying to pull a triple Salchow/Flip off the landing of an inside 2Loop.