Men's Long Program

[emma]

Feed cut out during Chan's program. But what I saw I loved. Very understated style to go with the music. Of course, there's nothing understated about Chan's edging and speed. He makes all the other skaters look conservative. Lots of intricacies. I love how the Canadian crowd clapped as loudly, or perhaps louder for his successful 3axel compared to how much they clapped for his 4toe. They know the 3axel is the jump that bedevils Chan. Would've liked to seen the rest.

Daisuke's program is just a dream. Or well, an acid trip. Love that he used the entire piece, no funky edits. Mistakes here and there, but at this point in his career, who cares? Yes, there was a time, before his injuries, when his jumps, along with so many other things, were Daisuke's strong points. But take away some of those jumps, and you still have a skater with so much skating ability, charisma and absolute artistic abandonment. And he's still in competition for every medal. I do so direly wish judges rewarded Daisuke fairly back when he did have his jumps down better (and he was as artistically gifted then).

trying to catch up on this discussion...but couldn't agree more. Chan is the man, Dai is to die for. Wow, I absolutley, yet in different ways, love both of these LPs so much. and Congrats to Javi,,,way to go!!! And, I think Rippon has a great vehicle in his LP too....this was a lot of fun to watch.

 

[reynycpr]

Protocols are out

 

[skatinginbc]

At this rate, no one has a "chance" to beat Mr. lucky blades Chan.

Well, Javier has double quad bonus (two types of quad, so the PCS inflation times two). Of course, there shouldn't be such quad effect on PCS, but if the judges score "unfairly", Javier might have a chance.

 

[Violet Bliss]

SC Mens is a whole different level from SA Mens. Even with mistakes, the top guys were so awesome and they offer more to look forward to over the season.

Congratulations to the medalists! And Dennis too.:thumbsup:

 

[Serious Business]

Yes, but that's fine. The rules state that the GOE for a fall on an element must be negative, and you are to deduct three. So if the quad was landed and the judges were going to give +2, a fall on that same quad is a -1. Most judges just tend to give the -3 though.

If we're going with that interpretation of the rules, though, a fall would actually necessitate more than a -3 deduction. Since there's also a deduction for touching down with both hands, deduction for two foot landing, stepping out, and a weak landing. Those judges that gave it -1 were wrong.

 

[Art&Sport]

Some random Spaniard just got pretty close. Plus you can go through the Skate-Canada archives of the last few years - and there you can read what you just said over and over again. Once or twice I also said that two years ago. But it never really turned out that was, other than last season when he started to complete these insanely perfect programs.

Come on, Medusa. When I see Chan not on the top of the podium, I'll believe it. Let me assure you, I was never one of those people claiming Chan could never be beat many years ago in SC archives. Peace.

 

[skfan]

Adam as he takes the opening pose in this costume looks so much like a perfect Greek statue. God, the man's beautiful. It reminded me of Gordeeva and Grinkov and their vocalise program--at least until he started skating. Not perfect, but showed great fight coming back from early disappointment.

I would have liked to see Daisuke T. skate Javier's programs, Javier's long especially. The classical style is one I'd like to see him delve into more. With his talent for expression, he can even meld classicism with comedy. Dai's long program currently does not appeal to me. I just hate this music.

On the other hand, Dai's new short underwhelmed the first time I saw it, but here the short was awesome. There is a nuance of expression I hadn't seen before--even the spins felt like they were really _on_ the music. Maybe this can happen with 'Blues' as well?

I like Javier and Ross and hope to see a perfect rendition of both of these long programs at some point this season.

As for the judging, *shrugs* Daisuke knew what he signed up for, now that his days as Japan's #1 are in the rearview mirror. At the time when I read his statement (paraphrasing here) about how he wants to keep skating, even if he might (will) be passed by younger skaters, I admired his honesty and outlook. Now that I've seen it in action, I find I've underestimated how irked I'd feel seeing him under-appreciated.

Whatever. Skating has always been this way--how long have fans complained about Akiko Suzuki's PCS? Have the judges suddenly seen the light, or is it the new landscape--no YNK, no Miki, Mao not yet consistent, Haruka and Kanako not yet ready to seize Japan's #1? To my eyes, Akiko's Fiddler on the roof program suited her even better than this year's Die Fledermaus, yet only now is she being rewarded.

Whatever I am thankful Daisuke showed me something new with this short program, just like I'm thankful YNK skated the 4 minute version of Arirang at Moscow Worlds, even though not everything about each occasion was 'perfect.'

 

[emma]

Well, Javier has double quad bonus (two types of quad, so the PCS inflation times two). Of course, there shouldn't be such quad effect on PCS, but if the judges score "unfairly", Javier might have a chance.

this is the part that is always troubling - I don't have an answer to it; but I do think Javi's basic skating skills, transitions, and so forth seemed light years different from Dai and Chan; I'm not sure where I would place him in relation to Rippon or Ten ... or them in relation to each other. But, I don't mind the final placements tonight and loved the entire final flight. I would hope that Miner can keep on keeping on; and just feel bad for KVP...but, other than that, this was a fun night.

ETA: skfan: it is so interesting how differently we can feel about something: I am literally over the moon enthralled and excited and in love with, truly, both of Dai's programs....I think he lacked a little of his Dai confidence or something tonight (not just mistakes, something was a little off), but that program and the music hooked me in a second; his SP hooked me in half a second. It will be interesting to see how his season progresses.

Someone earlier said this was Chan's best LP....I might be agreeing....

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

yes but that I dont get it in Cop. Generally speaking, how would the judges intend to give +2 for an element that they dont know how it would come of even if the skater landed it, he might have had a step out, hand down etc etc etc..I mean what is the hypothetical +2 for?

It is very dumb.

As for Dai, again, check out the TES. He was destroyed there.

 

[Poodlepal]

I am looking forward to the day Patrick Chan signs his million dollar deal with the Scott Hamilton Ice Show or wherever and moves on. I can't take him any more, I really can't.

Today, he messed up a couple of times. So did everybody else. But what did the announcers say? To paraphrase a little, "He fell because he's so wonderful! He cares! You don't know how hard it is! He fell because he's such a great skater he couldn't help himself! He's like a dancer! The skates are like lead weights on his feet!"

If some junior skater puts a hand down on his quad or makes some minor mistakes, it's like (and, to be fair, it's usually Scott who says this, not Peter) "Tsk, tsk. Not the skate he wanted. He's gotta be disappointed with that." But if it's Patrick Chan, they make excuses for him. To my eyes, he skated a slow, boring program to boring music (not nearly as good as his Phantom of the Opera program) and made several small mistakes. He may have deserved to win, he did a nice quad, and none of the other skated that well, but I saw nothing that warranted a 20 point advantage, or should've sent Peter Carruthers into ecstasy.

He may the best of the current male skaters, but to me he is not on the level of say, Alexei Yagudin or the young Evgeni Plushenko, who did quads, skated clean and reached out to the audience. He is also not as entertaining, as say, Johnny Weir, Elvis Stojko or Phillippe Candeloro, who may have had problems but always held your attention.

You can all yell at me now.

 

[Art&Sport]

I am looking forward to the day Patrick Chan signs his million dollar deal with the Scott Hamilton Ice Show or wherever and moves on. I can't take him any more, I really can't.

Today, he messed up a couple of times. So did everybody else. But what did the announcers say? To paraphrase a little, "He fell because he's so wonderful! He cares! You don't know how hard it is! He fell because he's such a great skater he couldn't help himself! He's like a dancer! The skates are like lead weights on his feet!"

If some junior skater puts a hand down on his quad or makes some minor mistakes, it's like (and, to be fair, it's usually Scott who says this, not Peter) "Tsk, tsk. Not the skate he wanted. He's gotta be disappointed with that." But if it's Patrick Chan, they make excuses for him. To my eyes, he skated a slow, boring program to boring music (not nearly as good as his Phantom of the Opera program) and made several small mistakes. He may have deserved to win, he did a nice quad, and none of the other skated that well, but I saw nothing that warranted a 20 point advantage, or should've sent Peter Carruthers into ecstasy.

He may the best of the current male skaters, but to me he is not on the level of say, Alexei Yagudin or the young Evgeni Plushenko, who did quads, skated clean and reached out to the audience. He is also not as entertaining, as say, Johnny Weir, Elvis Stojko or Phillippe Candeloro, who may have had problems but always held your attention.

You can all yell at me now.

ITA! Thank you!

 

[lavender]

No yelling Poodlepal. Patrick is a great skater, beautiful skating skills and the programs to match but I wouldn't be sad if he moved on just because of the things that have come out of his mouth. Made it hard for me to continue to root for him. I get that he's viewed above the rest but I just don't get the spread in points that he has over all the skaters.

 

[Serious Business]

I'm pretty sure Javier has skated programs before where he landed at least one or more quads, and did other jumps better, where I thought his PCS was noticeably undermarked. In fact, I've thought Javier was lowballed quite a few times before. Then suddenly, this. I don't think he's improved that much, though he probably has improved quite a bit. But quite honestly, I'd rather judges overmark than undermark a skater. There's something especially painful about seeing a skater put all that effort in and not get a corresponding score just because of reputation or politics or skating order.

 

[Violet Bliss]

:lol: No yelling. Patrick is a great skater, beautiful skating skills and the programs to match but I wouldn't be sad if he moved on just because of the things that have come out of his mouth. Made it hard for me to continue to root for him. I get that he's viewed above the rest but I just don't get the spread in points that he has over all the skaters.

You means words put in his mouth by the press? What have you really heard him say to upset you so much that should negate his accomplishments which have nothing to do with words?

 

[emma]

I didn't have announcers...so I wasn't influenced by them. But when Chan fell on footwork, it was pretty intense because he did this heel clicking thingy...and then seemed to either catch a toe-pick coming down or crossed his blades...I'd have to see it again, but the point is....there is just so, so much going on in his program AND it is (the fall notwithstanding) presented in such a seamless fashion. Anyway, sorry to gush...I know it sucks when you are tired of someone to hear someone else, well, gush. So, I'll stop.

But, I will say that these guys have brought so much in their first comps, I simply cannot wait to see how they progress.

 

[Art&Sport]

I'm pretty sure Javier has skated programs before where he landed at least one or more quads, and did other jumps better, where I thought his PCS was noticeably undermarked. In fact, I've thought Javier was lowballed quite a few times before. Then suddenly, this. I don't think he's improved that much, though he probably has improved quite a bit. But quite honestly, I'd rather judges overmark than undermark a skater. There's something especially painful about seeing a skater put all that effort in and not get a corresponding score just because of reputation or politics or skating order.

Javi was great in the sp (seemingly inspired by Jeremy Abbott's new swing sp, suspenders and all). Javi was good but not great in the free program. It doesn't hurt here that his coach is Canadian.

 

[Art&Sport]

You means words put in his mouth by the press? What have you really heard him say to upset you so much that should negate his accomplishments which have nothing to do with words?

I don't think you want this to become a link to all the things Patrick has said before to and about his competitors. Let's not go there.

 

[emma]

Javi was great in the sp (seemingly inspired by Jeremy Abbott's new swing sp, suspenders and all). Javi was good but not great in the free program. It doesn't hurt here that his coach is Canadian.

I agree that there was Javi greatest in the sp...I admired his LP, and feel happy for him. But for me, his spins and not so great transitions were more apparent in the LP. Nevertheless, I am happy for his validation here, and hope he keeps improving!

 

[genki]

I am so sad for Dai. It was not just his night.
But as many people said, he is a skater who is loved so much despite of recent technical debacles.

Once you saw his skates, you feel that he put his entire soul in it. He always make audience feel so special that he is skating for them not for the score.
I wish his unique ability to create unforgettable art on the ice will be reflected in the score just like Chan's SS and TR.

If you are not Dai's fan yet, wait to see his EX this year. Breathtakingly beautiful. I am sure you will fall head over heels in love with him

 

[dlarry1]

PoodlePal, I couldn't agree more. And I say that not to bash PChan at all. I understand that he is a very talented skater, and that other people adore what he does. But it does nothing for me. And for the life of me I cannot see the 5-10 point PCS difference that he has over every other skater on the planet.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is what it was like to NOT like my Queen Kwan when she was skating. I was always so amazed and confused that there were people out there who just didn't like her skating. I thought they were crazy, uninformed, or just bitter and jealous. Being on the other side when it comes to Patrick certainly opens up my eyes to what that must have been like...