- Joined
- Mar 27, 2010
So you conclude that someone's the most overrated skater ever because you have seen them one time, you deemed them to be slow and you don't like their program?
Men's Long Program
- Thread starter aemeraldrainc
- Start date
So you conclude that someone's the most overrated skater ever because you have seen them one time, you deemed them to be slow and you don't like their program?
Gee, Jettasian, you think Takahashi is overrated, you don't like Kozuka (judging by comments you made about him in other threads); is there anyone besides Chan who you do like?
Very thoughtful of you dlarry. Maybe it is sort of what that was like. However, the Kween trumps Pchiddy in consistency and humility, not to mention record-breaking medal wins, podium placements, 6.0s, magic, sportsmanship, transcending the sport, and the list goes on. Also, the judges were not as "in love" with Kwan or she would have won gold in Nagano, no problem.
All those saying that being there live is a must to get the full benefit of Chan's PCS qualities. Do you mean you have to be in Canada, or just up-close and personal?
Oh well, ultimately, I blame this crazy points-gathering system and crammed programs on CoP/ IJS. I also have to laugh a little at the notion that Patrick has to look at Jeff Buttle's tapes to improve his artistry. Jeff is another accomplished skater with great blade work, but he is often way too "studied" in some of his movements for my taste. Great blade work seems to be a tradition among Canadian men. I think Pchid should be looking moreso at tapes of the only Canadian man that I think has transcended the sport, the iconic and legendary Toller Cranston, now there is a mere mortal clearly gifted by the Skate Gods, by God! And, yes, I've heard that Chan was schooled early in his career (or given advice) by Cranston's long-time coach, Ellen Burka. Too bad PChid's personality and the era in which he skates has combined to in my estimation undermine his overall development as a truly great skater.
Off to watch Toller Cranston clips. He revolutionized men's figure skating, and was unloved by most judges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7AZboQ0R08
Ah, CoP programs without all the falling and inconsistencies, and unnecessary extra 4th revolution on jumps. The beauty of a single axel. Simplicity and complexity, precise, clean movements with edginess and unique character. This skater truly had something to say and he said it with panache and flair. Toller: "It wasn't a question of my skating that they [the audience, not the judges] were acclaiming so much ... It was a presentation of an idea and a concept and a new mode of skating that took off. It was really an intellectual idea that was acclaimed, and I was a vehicle... "
Great example of how this new judging system alienates viewers even more than the old system.
I liked AdaRipp's sp better, but his free may grow on me. Can't be viewed by some from that link (can be seen on NikaQuest's youtube channel, posted earlier in this thread). BTW, does anyone know whether Adam was attempting a quad lutz on the first jump? The camera angle was so whack, it wasn't clear. It just seemed that whatever it was, he landed it two-footed.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
Yes, he was.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
Yes, it was an attempt at a 4Lutz; unfortunately, Rippon both under-rotated it by more than a quarter-turn and two-footed it. I think Adam should consider only attempting one 3Axel in the LP; it's his most insecure jump, so why is he attempting it twice? I ask the same about Ashley Wagner attempting her 3flutz twice in the LP. I guess they both like to lose points? :think:
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
If Adam wants to make it to the top points-wise, the only way he can get away with doing only one triple axel in the long program is if he does two quads like Chan or Lambiel. One triple axel with no secure quad just isn't going to cut it, especially in the deep men's field today.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
He'd benefit from more points by repeating the 3flip and doing it perfectly with a difficult transition and +GOE than with that scary 3Axel technique of his, which could result in <, <<, -GOE, or -3s across the panel plus a mandatory -1.00 for a fall.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
Adam says he will keep trying the 4Lz in competition.
It just occurred to me that it's interesting that on this Fernandez' breakthrough event, Chan won with a program of Spanish music. Maybe this is the year of the Spanish in Men's figure skating.
It just occurred to me that it's interesting that on this Fernandez' breakthrough event, Chan won with a program of Spanish music. Maybe this is the year of the Spanish in Men's figure skating.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
Yes, but think of how some skaters mysteriously seem to benefit from a few extra PCS points when they stick a quad (or two) in their program. E.g. I really don't think Javi would have gotten such high PCS today if he didn't go for both quads. Anyway, I think the opposite effect will occur if Adam only has one triple axel with a wonky quad/no quad in his long program.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
Uhh because of the music calls for it? There are nuanced variance in the pace and sophistication in how he interpret the notes, deliver the moments, and that is much harder than speed on some fast paced music without thoughts and careful deliberation. Dai showed class tonight of a seasoned performer who has matured his philosophy while most others are still doing the imitating learning thing - being told what to do, what to feel etc.
While I love Patrick's Taichi like graceful effortless floats across the ice (with minor stumbles), watching Dai is like watching a master at a Chinese Calligraphy demonstration of black ink on white organic paper tripping on something wonderful - with occasional unpredictable ink splattered about just on the fringe of out of control but he just letting it slide and glide as one. Dai wasn't perfect but he was so into the moments, it is totally bewitching and a pleasure to see from a connoisseuring of fine skating point of view
It is not what he do, but how he does it, and Dai is the most musical men's skater we have today!
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
It's interesting you say that. Chan fell twice. Fernandez fell once. The difference between them was 3.41 points. If he had fallen three times (like on a 3A) he loses. Don’t think you’re wrong, though.
jettasian, cool it. Enjoy your favourite skater. If others don't, that doesn’t reflect badly on you or Chan. If you find people to be trolling, ignore it. Debate can be frustrating when people don’t actually engage with the ideas, but that’s true on both sides, and truthfully, I can’t tell if you’re criticizing Takahashi because you genuinely feel that way (which is totally fair) or if you do so if those who like him are critical of Chan and you want to show it goes both ways, which is a little petty, truth be told.
My thoughts on the Men’s LP.
Daisuke Takahashi: My heart really goes out to him. He’s made of pretty stern stuff, and it takes a lot of personal character to attempt to shape your career the way he has. I like that he’s clamped down on his flamboyance for this piece, preferring a more sinewy grace. I don’t think he lives this music like he’s done others (his Olympic programs) but collectively, definitely an improvement over what he had last season.
Javier Fernandez: I’m definitely happy he’s experiencing success. Leaving Morosov could prove to be the single biggest decision of his career and clearly it’s paying off. I wouldn’t have scored him nearly as close on PCS the judges did, but they definitely leaned more enthusiastic than I. Beautiful quad salchow. It’ll be neat to see if he can keep the momentum up and win Euros.
Patrick Chan: I adore this program. I’ve never seen a skater who looks so natural on the ice like he does. I can watch him simply stroke. I look forward to where this program takes him.
Adam Rippon: It’s hard to complain about Fernandez’ PCS when you see Adam Rippon’s transitions and choreography marks dropping whenever he prepares a 3A. I don’t remember it being this problematic before (This program was only two years ago). Anyway, he makes me miss Matt Savoie – similarly graceful, but Savoie’s choreography and interpretation was stronger. Maybe it’s just the costume
And the rest: Rogozine has potential. Miner was disappointing. Balde was bad. Ten didn’t convince and Majorov was confusing. Felt bad for KVDP – he really does seem like a nice guy.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2010
This competition will "go down in the history books as the first ever in which four different quads were attempted in a single event", according to the Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/figure-skat...c-skate-canada-fernandez-into-the-big-leagues).
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
I agree. It looked beautiful on him. However, Adam's skating was not as beautiful as how he looked. Heavy strokes and forever-long preparation for a jump. Not crazy about his skating. The Rippon Lutz was perfect though.
Chan's red shirt was ok if the black pants was without those red stripes. I prefer Japan Open's costume. Even though I agree that Chan should win LP and the over all competition, I prefer the artistry he's shown at Japan Open - more detailed layers and emotions. Maybe he was very nervous in LP, like he was in SP. Still, his speed and the deep edges were amazing! And he had a perfect 3A! That tumble out of nowhere was scary. He has truly the top quality CH! I love this LP! The camera angle was not as good as in JO in viewing this program.
Fernandez was good. But I can see there was clear differences in overall skating qualities between him and the two World champions. I'd have no problem if he got a little lower PCS. Terrible spins. I like his costume.
I don't get this Takahashi LP. I've seen nothing new and special. Just his usual flair and moves. Not inspiring. Very sorry for him that he has messed up so much on TES.
Wow!!! First time hear someone make connection between Patrick Chan and John Curry!
Last edited:
I love Chan's new program and look forward to seeing it later in the season as it grows. It is absolutely jam packed with difficulty. Chan didn't seem to have the beginning-of-the-season conditioning difficulties some of the other skaters in all the disciplines have seemed to have so far. He had to fight for the jumps tonight, but that's one of the things I always admire about him — even when it's not effortless, he still never gives up on the program.
Fernandez definitely looked like he was suffering at the end of that program, and I'm surprised it wasn't reflected a bit more in his PCS, as it did significantly impact the program. That said, I have virtually no memory of him prior to this season, but he'll be seen as a contender from now on and I applaud his breakthrough. I'm always so happy for a skater when they can make it to that next level.
I also really liked Takahashi's program and think it has great potential. He has an excellent feel for that music.
Fernandez definitely looked like he was suffering at the end of that program, and I'm surprised it wasn't reflected a bit more in his PCS, as it did significantly impact the program. That said, I have virtually no memory of him prior to this season, but he'll be seen as a contender from now on and I applaud his breakthrough. I'm always so happy for a skater when they can make it to that next level.
I also really liked Takahashi's program and think it has great potential. He has an excellent feel for that music.
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
But the problem is Adam's quad is even more insecure.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
Exactly, which is why I defended Adam's choice to go for two triple axels.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
I see that my prediction that someone other than Chan will win almost came true! The skating gods clearly felt that Fernandez was owed some good PCS after the wuzrobbing at Worlds. I like Javi, I really do, but looking at the protocols, I get the sense the judges were in a happy, happy mood. Maybe I'll watch and verify later. But it does seem like a bit of scoring inflation for him to have a better PB than, say, Lambiel's. OTOH, it is very cool to have an elite Spanish skater; nice to see success stories from outside the traditional skating powers, and obviously he's worked very hard to get to this point... Euros just got a lot more interesting! Now I'd like to see a similar career progression for Hurtado/Diaz, and hopefully between them they will inspire a new generation of Spanish babies and we'll see the results a few years down the line.
I'm not touching the issue of Chan's marks with a ten foot pole.
Although this is not the pairs' thread, I'd also like to say that Tatiana Volosozhar's LP dress is hideous.
I'm not touching the issue of Chan's marks with a ten foot pole.
Although this is not the pairs' thread, I'd also like to say that Tatiana Volosozhar's LP dress is hideous.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
That's a great clip of Toller
There's a lot of great stuff that can be mined for COP programs in his skating that people haven't used again yet! I love the twizzle with the leg extended entry into the spin, not to mention his iconic 3S into a stag leap into another jump. Just wonderful.
