Men's Long Program

[Jaana]

Some comments (our TV showed only the second group):

Ten beautiful choreography and his interpretation is fantastic. He still needs to better his stamina, I think.

Rippon such a looong hesitation before a jump. Will he ever get the triple axel consistent?

Chan fantastic choreography, expression and interpretation. He has become a complete package. What a joy to watch his skating!!! It took me some time to get into his skating and to see what the judges are seeing, but already in last season his skating began to open to me and totally won me over.

Takahashi I did not like the music, although during the last minutes it felt better suited for him.

Fernandez I´m so happy for his silver medal, WOW. He has improved already during this short time he has trained with Orser. Great program!!!

As it is early in the senior season, it is understandable that mistakes occurred for everyone. LOL, it would be worrying if somebody had managed a clean skate as it is such a long time until the Worlds.

Chan has it easy as there is no competition for him in the Nationals, ditto for Ten and Fernandez. Rippon will find it very diffult to get into Worlds team, especially as there are only 2 slots.

 

[demarinis5]

Congrats to Patrick, Jav and Dai. I was out of town yesterday and and could not watch the Men's competition. I just viewed Patrick, Jav and Dai.
Patrick and Dai, oh my!! Jav he is the one to watch for sure and I am very happy for him and what he accomplished in this competition. :yay:

 

[seniorita]

Yes I was thinking the same yesterday, that this must have been like being a not Kwan fan, or not Plush fan post 2002 with their super-dominance and judge love, but how often did they had a so and so skate that left the door open and had controversial wins over skaters who skated better. ( I m not speaking for yesterday). I dont think anyone thought of Patrick 's scores when he has skated to his potential, like Worlds. Kwan came 3rd and 4th at worlds when she was not on, and when Plushenko made mistakes he lost to Sandu and Joubert.

 

[Olympia]

Uhh because of the music calls for it? There are nuanced variance in the pace and sophistication in how he interpret the notes, deliver the moments, and that is much harder than speed on some fast paced music without thoughts and careful deliberation. Dai showed class tonight of a seasoned performer who has matured his philosophy while most others are still doing the imitating learning thing - being told what to do, what to feel etc.

While I love Patrick's Taichi like graceful effortless floats across the ice (with minor stumbles), watching Dai is like watching a master at a Chinese Calligraphy demonstration of black ink on white organic paper tripping on something wonderful - with occasional unpredictable ink splattered about just on the fringe of out of control but he just letting it slide and glide as one. Dai wasn't perfect but he was so into the moments, it is totally bewitching and a pleasure to see from a connoisseuring of fine skating point of view It is not what he do, but how he does it, and Dai is the most musical men's skater we have today!

I'm with you, Os168! Dai is absolutely bewitching and always has been. I still probably don't know enough about skating to appreciate Patrick completely, but Dai pulls me in because of both his skating and his musicality. I just watched his short and his long, and just the spins alone look as if they've never been done on the ice before (and indeed couldn't have been done by anyone else). He comes at you from inside the music, it seems to me. I don't easily put skaters on my Forever List, and Daisuke has been on there for several years now--the only one of today's competing male skaters to be on there. (Lambiel is on, of course, but I think he's not planning to compete anymore.)

 

[seniorita]

Daisuke this year has less flamboyant kind of programs, no diva costumes and hair, and his programs are less theatrical,while difficult they look simple, it is like a different skater, and while I love the flamboyant Dai , this came as a surprise of how much different stuff he can do.I keep watching his sp. <3

 

[demarinis5]

Uhh because of the music calls for it? There are nuanced variance in the pace and sophistication in how he interpret the notes, deliver the moments, and that is much harder than speed on some fast paced music without thoughts and careful deliberation. Dai showed class tonight of a seasoned performer who has matured his philosophy while most others are still doing the imitating learning thing - being told what to do, what to feel etc.

While I love Patrick's Taichi like graceful effortless floats across the ice (with minor stumbles), watching Dai is like watching a master at a Chinese Calligraphy demonstration of black ink on white organic paper tripping on something wonderful - with occasional unpredictable ink splattered about just on the fringe of out of control but he just letting it slide and glide as one. Dai wasn't perfect but he was so into the moments, it is totally bewitching and a pleasure to see from a connoisseuring of fine skating point of view It is not what he do, but how he does it, and Dai is the most musical men's skater we have today!

I'm with you, Os168! Dai is absolutely bewitching and always has been. I still probably don't know enough about skating to appreciate Patrick completely, but Dai pulls me in because of both his skating and his musicality. I just watched his short and his long, and just the spins alone look as if they've never been done on the ice before (and indeed couldn't have been done by anyone else). He comes at you from inside the music, it seems to me. I don't easily put skaters on my Forever List, and Daisuke has been on there for several years now--the only one of today's competing male skaters to be on there. (Lambiel is on, of course, but I think he's not planning to compete anymore.)

Daisuke this year has less flamboyant kind of programs, no diva costumes and hair, and his programs are less theatrical,while difficult they look simple, it is like a different skater, and while I love the flamboyant Dai , this came as a surprise of how much different stuff he can do.I keep watching his sp. <3

:agree:

 

[skatinginbc]

It's interesting to see that Dai received a wide range of scores for his long program. For instance, his performance score ranges from 7.00 to 9.50 (vs. Chan's 8.00 to 9.25), choreography from 8.00 to 9.75 (vs. Chan's 8.25 to 9.50), and interpretation from 7.75 to 9.75 (vs. Chan's 8.00 to 9.00). An Eurosport commentator praised it as a masterpiece and pointed out Dai's ability to sustain the mood or music that lacks variations. A monotonous music does demand an acquired taste. If it is not electrifying to one's ear, it's hard to appreciate the subtle fineness of his performance, choreography and interpretation and would be even harder with jumping errors and so on. I can understand why some argue that Dai is overrated while others believe he is undervalued. I guess his PCS could go up when the judges get used to the music and the concept of the choreography.

 

[Dodhiyel]

The Universal Sports broadcast was foiled by the weather last night, and at a certain point, the power here totally went out, so I just now watched Patrick Chan and Javier Fernandez do their free skates.

According to the protocols, Patrick got 9 or better for skating skills from seven out of the nine judges. The ISU has always said that skaters should not be marked on how they have performed previously, but only on how they skate on that particular day in the competition. The ISU has said that actual performance, rather than reputation, should determine the marks. Obviously, they were only kidding.

Patrick did not merely fall on a jump; he fell on *footwork*! That, to me, is very important. If footwork is not an indicator of "skating skills", what is? Complaints in the past, which led to the creation of CoP, said that elements other than jumps should matter a lot. That argument has been used, at times, to support the scores of weak jumpers. It was apparently decided that the quality of spins and footwork must be taken seriously, as well as jumps.

It is painfully clear that the PCS is now used to bolster whatever skater any given judge wants to see on the podium. "The more things change, the more they stay the same.". Patrick is making it very hard for the obvious bias to stay hidden. He really ought to avoid messing up his footwork. Or else, the judges ought to be scoring "skating skills" objectively. I think that staying on one's feet while executing footwork sequences is of paramount importance in a competition. If the skater cannot accomplish this, then they are biting off more than they can chew, and the marks should reflect that.

 

[OS]

Daisuke's programs are almost the Anti Daisuke from last year that is why I appreciated his efforts so much.

He is stripped down from all distraction kits capable of masking flaws (In a way this leaves him quite vulnerable). Instead these are more matured and riskier piece work designed to highlight the skating above everything else. The so called Monotonous music (I'd sort of disagree with the term) has very deliberate and languid beat/rhythms that follows repeated motif that could highlight the flaw (as well bring out the best) of anyone without great musicality and expressive skills. It is a tighter rope to walk - almost naked without a shelter to hide under (e.g war horse music tells you what to feel and when, + many of Morozov's work are designed to hide the flaw of his skaters etc.) Instead it demands the audience to pay attention at what the skater is doing and his skating.

I personally really love his EX as well. It sound like the soundtrack of the film 7 pounds (some would call it monotonous, but I personally think it can be really emotional), together makes his trio of 2011-12 suite programs worthy of a matured gifted artistic skater, a master of his craft no amount of quads can compensate.

 

[emma]

Daisuke's programs are almost the Anti Daisuke from last year that is why I appreciated his efforts so much.

He is stripped down from all distraction kits capable of masking flaws (In a way this leaves him quite vulnerable). Instead these are more matured and riskier piece work designed to highlight the skating above everything else. The so called Monotonous music (I'd sort of disagree with the term) has very deliberate and languid beat/rhythms that follows repeated motif that could highlight the flaw (as well bring out the best) of anyone without without great musicality and expressive skills. It is a tighter rope to walk - almost naked without a shelter to hide under (e.g war horse music tells you what to feel and when, + many of Morozov's work are designed to hide the flaw of his skaters etc.) Instead it demands the audience to pay attention at what the skater is doing and his skating.

I personally really love his EX as well. It sound like the soundtrack of the film 7 pounds (some would call it monotonous, but I personally think it can be really emotional), together makes his trio of 2011-12 suite programs worthy of a matured gifted artistic skater, a master of his craft no amount of quads can compensate.

I love your description of Dai's LP!!! Can't wait to see the EX as I have not yet seen that. I really wish Dai all the best this season, and cannot wait to see his SP and LP as he gets some comp experience with them.

 

[let`s talk]

So, it's official now: 1. Skate Canada is the most corrupted FS event ever (I am speaking about judges) if Chan is in.
2. Dai has the superb musicality on the ice that no one ever had. I think he already beat Lambiel in this point.

 

[skatinginbc]

According to the protocols, Patrick got 9 or better for skating skills from seven out of the nine judges....Patrick did not merely fall on a jump; he fell on *footwork*! That, to me, is very important. If footwork is not an indicator of "skating skills", what is?

Sureness of edges, steps, and turns is included in Skating skills, and yes, a fall on a crossover or footwork should have been reflected in the score. How do we know it hasn't been though? As a layman unconversant with the judging system, I always assume it has. Unless he receives a 10, I would never know it hasn't. I'm not arguing whether he deserved his score or not. All I am saying is that the judging system is not friendly for a lay person like me to understand.

And a fall on a crossover should be reflected in the Performance/Execution as well. Again, I have no problem with his scores because I automatically assume it has been reflected.

 

[Mathman]

It's interesting you say that. Chan fell twice. Fernandez fell once. The difference between them was 3.41 points. If he had fallen three times (like on a 3A) he loses.

We will never know whether he would have won or lost in that scenario. Or if he had fallen four times.

The problem is that Chan is such a remarkable CoP scoring machine that no matter how many mistakes he makes, that's just a small opportunity loss in the big picture of his total score.

As a layman unconversant with the judging system, I always assume [that mistakes have been taking into account by the judges].

Again, I have no problem with his scores because I automatically assume it has been reflected.

I think that's the problem in a nutshell. Given the history of judging improprieties in figure skating, most casual fans are more inclined to assume that the judges are a bunch of crooks than automatically to assume that the judges are doing their jobs competently and in good conscience.

I think the casual fan says, "What the heck was that?! I don't know anything about skating, but even I can see he fell down!"

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

We will never know whether he would have won or lost in that scenario. Or if he had fallen four times.

The problem is that Chan is such a remarkable CoP scoring machine that no matter how many mistakes he makes, that's just a small opportunity loss in the big picture of his total score.



I think that's the problem in a nutshell. Given the history of judging improprieties in figure skating, most casual fans are more inclined to assume that the judges are a bunch of crooks than automatically to assume that the judges are doing their jobs competently and in good conscience.

I think the casual fan says, "What the heck was that?! I don't know anything about skating, but even I can see he fell down!"

Fair enough on both points. Though we do know that Chan can and has lost in a four-fall scenario (CoR) and that when the scores are as close as they were here, that the points lost on a fall from a 3A (-3 GOE and -1 Fall deduction) would put him behind. I'm at the point where I want Chan to lose (fairly or unfairly) merely to clamp down a little on the feeling (that even I'm beginning to get) that the judges will hold him up no matter what. I certainly hope that the big events (Worlds, Olympics) the results (ie podium) is fair and clear even if the point difference isn't (a la Torino 2006)

 

[jettasian]

Gee, Jettasian, you think Takahashi is overrated, you don't like Kozuka (judging by comments you made about him in other threads); is there anyone besides Chan who you do like?

People have the right to like or dislike anyone. Must I like Kozuka and Dia just because others people do? Besides, I did NOT say I dislike them, I just find them overrated, esp Dai. I always find his expression over the top, it's like "look at me, I'm angry".

Adam says he will keep trying the 4Lz in competition.

It just occurred to me that it's interesting that on this Fernandez' breakthrough event, Chan won with a program of Spanish music. Maybe this is the year of the Spanish in Men's figure skating.

I will hold on to "Fernandez's breakthrough talk" yet. Sometimes one event doesn't mean you are sitting pretty (although that man IS pretty ). If I were Orser, I will drag his behind back to spin and spin and spin some more.

edited: I didn't know "his behind", you know, starting with an a...is censored.

 

[burntBREAD]

I will hold on to "Fernandez's breakthrough talk" yet. Sometimes one event doesn't mean you are sitting pretty (although that man IS pretty ). If I were Orser, I will drag his behind back to spin and spin and spin some more.

edited: I didn't know "his behind", you know, starting with an a...is censored.

Orser will definitely force him to work in his spins. However, I wonder if spins are even important in COP anymore (not that they had a big effect on scores in 6.0 either). Jumps are worth so much more than spins that pretty much as long as one has the jumps, they don't necessarily need the spins to succeed, and I think that's unfortunate.

 

[Buttercup]

Without commenting as to the specifics of Patrick Chan's scoring yesterday: I get the sense that with Chan, the judges aren't always marking what he does do so much as what he can do. This has obviously happened before with other top skaters, but seems to have been take not an extreme in his case. But falls/mistakes/bobbles/whatever should matter, even if a skater is capable of something great when he/she is on.

Also, Chan seems to me to have had a comparatively large number of falls on linking movements and footwork. Deep edges are nice, really, but they're not so nice if a skater can't control them consistently. Now, there's no need for him to empty his programs of choreo and whatever transitions he likes, but maybe he needs to do 10% less but do it that much better.

And now, I'll go watch the FD.

 

[jettasian]

Uhh because of the music calls for it? There are nuanced variance in the pace and sophistication in how he interpret the notes, deliver the moments, and that is much harder than speed on some fast paced music without thoughts and careful deliberation. Dai showed class tonight of a seasoned performer who has matured his philosophy while most others are still doing the imitating learning thing - being told what to do, what to feel etc.

While I love Patrick's Taichi like graceful effortless floats across the ice (with minor stumbles), watching Dai is like watching a master at a Chinese Calligraphy demonstration of black ink on white organic paper tripping on something wonderful - with occasional unpredictable ink splattered about just on the fringe of out of control but he just letting it slide and glide as one. Dai wasn't perfect but he was so into the moments, it is totally bewitching and a pleasure to see from a connoisseuring of fine skating point of view It is not what he do, but how he does it, and Dai is the most musical men's skater we have today!

That's one of the reasons why I think Dai's overrated with the talk like this.

jettasian, cool it. Enjoy your favourite skater. If others don't, that doesn’t reflect badly on you or Chan. If you find people to be trolling, ignore it. Debate can be frustrating when people don’t actually engage with the ideas, but that’s true on both sides, and truthfully, I can’t tell if you’re criticizing Takahashi because you genuinely feel that way (which is totally fair) or if you do so if those who like him are critical of Chan and you want to show it goes both ways, which is a little petty, truth be told.

Wait, so criticizing Tak is sort of a "payback" on my part? Ok, got it. Must love Tak. Must love Tak. He's god and must love Tak. He's the best skater ever dawn in the land of planet earth. Must love Tak.

Chan's red shirt was ok if the black pants was without those red stripes. I prefer Japan Open's costume. Even though I agree that Chan should win LP and the over all competition, I prefer the artistry he's shown at Japan Open - more detailed layers and emotions. Maybe he was very nervous in LP, like he was in SP. Still, his speed and the deep edges were amazing! And he had a perfect 3A! That tumble out of nowhere was scary. He has truly the top quality CH! I love this LP! The camera angle was not as good as in JO in viewing this program.

Yeah, not sure why he changed the costume. I do like the red shirt, but still prefer the JO one.

I don't get this Takahashi LP. I've seen nothing new and special. Just his usual flair and moves. Not inspiring. Very sorry for him that he has messed up so much

:O bite your tongue!

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I'm not saying it is. I'm saying I can't tell. I've never seen you express enthusiasm for anyone but Chan, and that doesn't help.

Anyway, I'm shutting up now.

 

[jettasian]

He had to fight for the jumps tonight, but that's one of the things I always admire about him — even when it's not effortless, he still never gives up on the program.

Yup, especially his hard fall on the first quad. He came right back and went for it again. So was during that out of nowhere fall, he had no time at all but to go for the Lutz right away. Just the same with the Short.