Men's Short Program: 2013 NHK Trophy

[wordsworthgirl]

OK, how about this, then. Oda is cute as the dickens….Oh wait, so is Adam…Nevermind...

Mathman, you're the best! Oda is ADORABLE in a fun, playful, goofy way. Adam is adorable too, but he is also beautiful and gorgeous (according to both me and my 11 year old stepdaughter). My husband, who is learning the names slowly, refers to Oda as Curious George (which a commentator called him) and Adam as "Boy Band".

 

[wordsworthgirl]

I think this is a fruitless discussion. We all have our differences.

One thing is for sure, Oda is more decorated! 13 GP medals, including four gold medals. So sad he hasn't lived up to his potential at Olympics or Worlds.

Oda is also 3 years older and a much more consistent skater. I'd say consistency and joy have been his biggest assets. I agree it's sad about him not living up to his potential at the big events.

 

[Mathman]

Did you all see Adam's interview with TSL? He said that he always doubted himself and worried, when he was praised by commentators and fans, that one day they would discover that the emperor has no clothes after all. Then last year he took control, started laying down one good skate after another, and finally reached the point, in his own mind, where he could say, hey, I can skate with these guys!

 

[wordsworthgirl]

Did you all see Adam's interview with TSL? He said that he always doubted himself and worried, when he was praised by commentators and fans, that one day they would discover that the emperor has no clothes after all. Then last year he took control, started laying down one good skate after another, and finally reached the point, in his own mind, where he could say, hey, I can skate with these guys!

Yes, Mathman, I LOVED that interview! That is when I really became a huge Adam fan- I loved his honesty, his vulnerability, his intelligence, and his humility. And he seemed to have a new, quiet confidence and to be really excited about the upcoming season. He's now shown us he had good reason for his confidence and his excitement!

 

[waxel]

I think adam is a wonderful skater, but I wish he would tone down the "elegant' hands somewhat.

Icey, why don't you say what you mean? Elegant with "quotes" ... we all know what you want to say.

 

[waxel]

Interesting competition. Things not looking so good for Max. For the "next quad king" has he landed a clean one yet this season? I mean impressively so? He's certainly hasn't lived up to media, and his own hype. SP is very, very weak... even if skated cleanly. I actually like his LP, but without jumps, he's sunk. I wish him well--- maybe his "scrappy" attitude will get him through Nats.

 

[SaraM]

I agree re Oda's 4T- it looks fine to me too. And I also agree about Max- even though I am not a big fan of his skating, I really like him and admire his work ethic. It's sad to be so consistent one season and then the next season, a far more important season, be unable to skate clean or even close to clean. He is no longer a favorite for the Olympic team.

I remember jow during the summer everyone was talking about how Aaron was a lock for the olys team and all the other us men were fighting for that one remaining spot. and yet now as you say it dosent look like max will make the team if he keeps skating like this...

 

[SaraM]

Hi Mathman! I love your posts and your voice here, but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. To me, Adam has far better flow and effortless glide than Oda, better varied use of power/energy, speed, etc, better rhythm and efficient use of lean. and Oda skates a LOT on two feet.

I do give the knee action one to Oda, though. I think that, and his soaring jumps, and his effervescence are his 3 best qualities.

Agreed foe me theres np doubt that adams skating skills is way up there above odas...

 

[ice coverage]

... his own hype. ...

I would not say that Max has been one to "hype" himself.
At the same time that he has expressed healthy ambition re Nats and Sochi, he has been very respectful of the other U.S. men (including Lysacek) and of the international men. Max has never called himself "a lock" to qualify for Sochi.
He has said repeatedly that his original career goal was to earn a Team USA jacket, and that everything else since then has been a bonus. :yes:
He also has been the first to acknowledge that he does not have extensive experience at international competitions. But he's learning as fast as he can ...

 

[wallylutz]

When I watched it via live feed last night, I didn't pick up any UR on the Quads from either Oda or Takahashi. To my naked eyes, both seem fine. Consequently, I don't think Takahashi is overscored.

As for Oda's scores, sometimes you get close calls, sometimes you don't. It's just the way any judged sport is, similar to baseball where umpires sometimes called it right and sometimes, they make mistakes. The conspiracy theorists alledging improper judging against Oda needs to come up with evidence far more concrete than just some hunch.

 

[Ziggy]

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Adam Rippon, but how in the world was his step sequence not marked down with -GOE for stumbling out at the end (he received many +2 and +1 GOE in fact)? Very mysterious and !

Judges regularly miss a number of errors which aren't very obvious.

I agree. Takahashi received a few two's and three's for his spins and they were tremendously slow with poor positions.

Name/reputation/judges being blind. Take your pick. I would have given him -1s at best for some of his spins.

Fully agree. I watched the replay over and over again, and that jump was fully rotated, no questions about it. The technical controller should give him 6 points back. I can understand the edge call on the Lutz, but it's extremely slight.

No, it wasn't. Both 4toe and 3toe were cheated close to 1/4. I think the calls could have gone either way but it's not like he was unfairly picked on.

Skaters often pre-rotate MORE than that amount on the salchow and toeloop especially (particularly toeloops on the back end of other jumps), which needs to be accounted for when determining the rotation of the jump.

Yes, toe-loops and salchow can be more pre-rotated.

The technical panel isn't supposed to count the net rotation of the jump and isn't allowed to use slow-motion to check when the blade leaves the ice. It is only supposed to take pre-rotation into account if the jump is clearly pre-rotated to the naked eye because you can see the skater putting their weight over the blade on take-off and pre-turning. As far as the technical panel is concerned, jump rotation starts when the take-off starts, not when the blade fully leaves the ice. You can't hold take-offs for different jumps to the same standard because the jump technique demands different degrees of pre-rotation. You can hold landings for different jumps to the same standard though, because they are all supposed to look the same. Which is why IJS has the technical panel looking at landings but not take-offs.

I think that it would be best if we could have an automated, precise computer program which would count the entire rotation but then ISU would have to mandate how much pre-rotation is ok for each of the jumps and I am not sure how you can really determine that (and the technology is not there yet either). Even if the ISU agreed on the allowance for pre-rotation, checking both wouldn't be possible manually as it would take forever.

I don't think Caitie is kidding, and I agree with her.

Oda has better knee bend, deeper and smoother edges and more speed. His skating skills are superior to Rippon.

This would be an interesting experiment. Just show the skater's feet. Who would come out on top, leaving out elegant carriage, balletic arms, soulful facial expressions, etc. Chan, then Takahashi, right? Then who?

Chan > big gap > Kozuka > big gap > Yan > Takahashi - something like that (maybe the last two the other way round)

 

[David21]

When I watched it via live feed last night, I didn't pick up any UR on the Quads from either Oda or Takahashi. To my naked eyes, both seem fine. Consequently, I don't think Takahashi is overscored.

Having just watched Takahashi's SP again, I have to say the same about him what I said about Asada: Overscoring based on reputation of the skater or simply cluelessness by the judges.
Takahashi's quad toe was *at least* 1/4 turn short, had no real preceding footwork (he basically did one turn, then paused, then the usual setup for a toeloop), and yet he got showered with plus 1s and 2s and only one single judge out of 9 had the courage to give that element a -1 (even though personally I have a hard time imagining that it deserved anything higher than -2).

 

[deedee1]

What a delight watching this, with such an enthousiastic audience. Such a difference compared to last week's CoC (though to be fair, the quality of the skating already seems a lot higher, so there is more to be enthousiastic about!). Also, yay for the Japanese knowing how to properly put figure skating on film.

It's nice to see a GP event where the rink is actually full even for a daytime session.

I was one of these luckiest audience in the world who did enjoy every minutes of the competition for three days. Or should I say rather, the finest quality of figure skating for dream-like three days!

My thoughts on Men SP. Mind you all, I watched the whole competition from far and above the rink as usual , so that I could not see detailed choreographies or facial expressions, but I could see other things such as: how skaters are to use rink and its ice covarage, overall speed and how they change its speed effortlessly or forcefully, presence of skaters on ice regardless of their actual heights/body type, and power/energy of each programs.

[First Group]
-Adam: His 3A looked a bit tilted in the air but landed cleanly. Good to see he now gets consistency on his 3As under Artunian. I would have liked more if he could have skated bigger a bit, so that could have covered more ice especially during the first half of the program where he skated around the centre only until he went for 3F-3T.

-Konstantin: At World Team Trophy this spring he had such a great SP, then in his Free he dislocated his shoulder with an awful fall on 3A and had to withdraw... A lot of skating fans among the audience who still remember it reeeaaally wanted him to do well here, I think. Good for him to nail 4T-3T and 3A, but so sad to see he went down on 3Lz...

-Max: Must be hard to him to have to 'dance' while hitting all technical elements cleanly in SP. I am okay Max to use this music. But very risky I thought, because its structure/concept of the program including music cut is so much similar to Dai's signature mambo. It may affect both TES and PCS (=judges impression) if he fails to hit big jumps.

-Jeremy: he loosened the opening 4T, it looked like an 'over-rotated' 3T from my seat. So I cried out loud when he went for 3Lz-3T! I could not concentrate on the rest of his program because my fear that he may get 0 point for that combo just did not go away until the score came up...Very relieved to see the score afterward. phewwww.

 

[deedee1]

[6min warm-up]
As a skating fan for many years myself, one thing that I am proud of and I can assure you is that Japanese audience/Japanese skating fans are always very supportive and friedly to all skaters, appreciative for every performance with or without mistakes, and try to encourage by clapping hard if some of them make mistakes/falls, regardless whom these audience/fans root for the most at any competitions. :yes: But throughout the first comp of day 1 which was Pairs SP, I felt the audience was a bit 'quiet' compared to their norm...
When 6min warm-up got started, I knew why!: the audience had been nervous and anxious and impatient and worrying for the Men second group! Once five skaters took to the ice, all of us screamed whichever skater's name that came to mind, literally at the same time, as if shaking off nervousness, anxiety, worries, excitement or whatever. Me included of course. We were crazy people screaming for our home boys, "Dai-chaaaan!" "Oda-kuuuun!" "Mura-kuuuun!" "Bambare~~~!"

[Second Group]
-Sergei: Glad to see him with less flailing arms and much improved skating, compared to old Sergei under Morozov.

-Nobunari: Nobu Nobu Nobu!!! A very entertaining program to showcase his character and skating best. Everyone in the arena loved it! Biiiig standing ovation. Then got very disappointed when the score came up...:disapp:

-Takahito: A bit risky choice of music, same as Max's mambo, same as Taka Kozuka's Unsquare Dance, he needs to 'dance' and 'sell it to judges and audience' while hitting all required technical elements in SP. Going back to his last season's SP a wise choice to make, maybe?

-Javier: he looked nervous even before he took to the ice. Sorry about mistake on 4S. This SP suits him very well, but if he misses a jump, the program may lose its steam/lively energy.

-Daisuke: Dai ROCKED the arena and stole the show. He was in the 'zone' during his entire performance. Even after it was over, I thought. He did not smile at all, did he? His energy reached up to where I was sitting (close to the ceiling). Did you hear all these cheers and screaming when he hit the quad and 3A thru your PC? The volume of screaming was twice bigger or more than thru PC/TV, probably. Everyone, almost everyone got into their feet well before his ending pose. Another big standing ovation. When the score was announced, the crowd went crazy again.

 

[ice coverage]

....
As a skating fan for many years myself, one thing that I am proud of and I can assure you is that Japanese audience/Japanese skating fans are always very supportive and friedly to all skaters, appreciative for every performance with or without mistakes, and try to encourage by clapping hard if some of them make mistakes/falls, regardless whom these audience/fans root for the most at any competitions. :yes: But throughout the first comp of day 1 which was Pairs SP, I felt the audience was a bit 'quiet' compared to their norm...
When 6min warm-up got started, I knew why!: the audience had been nervous and anxious and impatient and worrying for the Men second group! Once five skaters took to the ice, all of us screamed whichever skater's name that came to mind, literally at the same time, as if shaking off nervousness, anxiety, worries, excitement or whatever. Me included of course. We were crazy people screaming for our home boys, "Dai-chaaaan!" "Oda-kuuuun!" "Mura-kuuuun!" "Bambare~~~!"

....

Love your vivid reporting and comments, deedee. Domo.

 

[deedee1]

Thanks, golden!
A couple of more thoughts.

-Nobu's low score and 4T<+3T
Whenever my husband and I watch competitions together, either on TV or live, we enjoy a sort of game predicting/guessing its score after each performance (I am the one who tend to predict higher and lose the game in the end.) After Nobu's fabulous SP, "90+ worthy!" I claimed, he said "No way. around 88 at best probably, because Javi and Dai still to go".
When his score was announced, many of the crowd did not agree with it, saying 'ahhhhh' 'nooooo' 'reeeeeally?'. And such voices were all around me until Javier's music got started. His TES was way too low for what he showed in front of us. 4T must have got a < call, my husband and I suspected. But still too low we thought. His 4T+3T looked just perfect, both to our naked eyes and on the replay on Arena's big screen. (And Dai's 4T looked more borderline on the replay later, if not the same.)

Here is what must have happened. Or what could have happened I thought:
When Nobu hit a perfect huge high 4T, its landing did not lose speed (as his norm on his good day of course), and he was very close to the board on the short-side already. And I instantly feared he would crash into the board if he were to add 3T. Then Nobu clearly, or I at least thought so from where we sat, changed his direction upon 4T landindg, about 90 degree toward the long-side (=backward), in order to secure more ice to add 3T. That caused Tech panel to see it as a gliding toe-pick on ice for UR call, maybe? I'm no expert in checking technical things such as UR/DG calls o jumps, so Idk for sure, but that was my understanding/take on Nobu's possible low score and explained to my husband.

 

[deedee1]

-Dai's high score and GOEs on 4T/3A:
My husband, who btw was rooting for Nobu the most at this comp (he believes Dai gets so much love eeevery day from eeeverybody including 'his wife' so that Dai now deserves no more love, 'his own love' in particular lol, thus dedicates it to Nobu instead, he says!) was very displeased with the score and complaining to me on and on even after Javi started.

Some of you mentioned his score was way too high, or did not agree with such massive GOEs for his borderline 4T and/or 3A without difficult entries. But I kind of understand why judges gave such GOEs, more precisely why judges 'had to' give them. When Dai landed 4T cleanly which hadn't happened for quite some time, the crowd went crazy. It was simply an explosion. Then he hit high distant 3A, another explosion, because many of us knew he had been struggling with 3A consistency, and that was a beauty and almost the same as his old 3As we used to remember from him. I feel for the judges, to be honest, if they might have got a bit criticized for this...Watching all the crowd spring onto their feet and go crazy, judges could not help it but being a bit generous, I guess.
After Dai's killer performance and while we all waited for the score to come up, my husband kept telling me, "I am gonna be pissed off if this one goes over 90...I'm gonna...gonna". You can easily imagine I had hard time consoling him during the whole 3 days.

Dai-love or no love aside, we were feeling scores were lower for what they did on ice, to our eyes, thruout the entire Men SP. Except Dai. What we did not like the most and agreed on was the difference on total points between Dai and the rest. Our bottom line: if Nobu's 4T gets called for an UR, then Dai's should too. if Dai gets green light on 4T, then Nobu should deverve it too.

 

[dorispulaski]

deedee 1, Thanks for the view from the arena. I hope things turn out at CoR so that Nobu gets a rematch with Dai at the GPF.

 

[lcd]

Unfortunately didn't. It really seems interesting that Machida has a non-Japanese coach and has historically been sort of an "outsider"
Will be interesting to see how Japanese nationals shapes up.