Michelle - The End or a New Beginning?

[show 42]

I guess my question to you is this: Should technical difficulity be the center most important thing or an overall creative skater? Is figure skating better off with skaters with sustainable careers (competitive & pro) or hurt overall because skaters are done at a young age because the technical difficulty destroys their bodies ala Tara? And is this reasonable for fans & the federations to expect?

Kwanford.........an excellent and reasonable assessment. True fans of figure skating will see it as such........... :agree: 42

 

[tannisming]

No, fs is not just jumps. It's also about fast spins and laybacks which MK also has trouble doing. So should the Olympic judges just put all that aside in view of past 6.0 achievements and give her a life time achievement gold medal when other skaters worked hard and did these elements on a higher level? Even under MK's beloved 6.0, Tara, and then Sarah bested her to take the gold with (gasp) their jumps. Do you really think the Olympic judges are going to risk another scandal by giving the gold to someone who did not skate with near the difficulty the others skated with?

 

[Piel]

Tannisming, what about edges, control, flow, interpretation of music not pantomime but the skater, the blade, the music, the ice all working together and APPEARING effortless? This is the beauty of the sport. Go back in the archives and read some of RGirls posts about Michelle's movement from the center and how much she has improved in this area post SLC.

Kwan may not have the flexibility in her spins of Cohen but her jumps are better, her spiral has a better COE and deeper edges. She may not have the jumps of Slutskaya but the flow, and edging are better and she does not telegraph like Irina does. Kwan doesn't have the Bielman but she doesn't travel on her spins. So name your element you seem to prefer bigger jumps and faster spins. I prefer spins and jumps that are more textbook and flow with the program. Flexibility and muscles for big jumps are something that a skater can only do so much within the limitatiobns of the body God gave them. OTOH flow and edging are more difficult to perfect but can be done regardless of body type if the skater invests the effort. So don't say that Kwan hasn't tried or is a slacker because her back isn't as flexible as Sasha's or her jumps aren't as huge as Irina's.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

No, fs is not just jumps. It's also about fast spins and laybacks which MK also has trouble doing. So should the Olympic judges just put all that aside in view of past 6.0 achievements and give her a life time achievement gold medal when other skaters worked hard and did these elements on a higher level? Even under MK's beloved 6.0, Tara, and then Sarah bested her to take the gold with (gasp) their jumps. Do you really think the Olympic judges are going to risk another scandal by giving the gold to someone who did not skate with near the difficulty the others skated with?

Ok... its also about footwork, sprials and the ability to stay upright while being clean and keeping your head together. Things Kwan is known for, in addition to consistent, strong jumps. But that's neither here nor there... Her record speaks for itself and while I'm an uberfan, I don't have the patience to go there... I like to add, not duplicate the posts of others...

Let's discuss the second part of your post ~ the Olympics. I'm not saying she should receive a gold medal based on her reputation. If that's all it took, she would've won two by now... Tara & Sarah did beat her. I've never argued that point nor will I... '98 was simply Tara's year & I'm glad she had it because based on her own words ~ she knew her hip was going even then and without that gold medal, she'd be a forgotten about also ran with a bad hip. Its much easier to cushion that hip with a gold medal and a stack of cash...

Sarah skated her heart out and was able to capitalize on the mistakes of MK, Sasha & Irina. And yay for her! The only bad part about Sarah's win is that she didn't stay competitive. I was so looking forward to a Sarah / Sasha rivalry. Barring the wack, it would've been the first, good American rivalry since Kristi/Tonya/Nancy... I'd still give Sarah the edge because she was consistent and her layback was awesome. (a side note, I always preferred Tonya because she was gansta! )

All I am saying is that in keeping with the "Olympic Thing" about reaching the pinnacle against all odds, I know Michelle Kwan will have her story ~ just like Tara had her time & Sarah had her time. Based on the expectations of both skaters, I'd say that nobody really expected them to win and they did it "in spite of." Destiny had a hand... particularily with Sarah! 4th to 1st? Kwan & Irina BOTH having bad skates? On the same night? Please. Even if you rooted for her & felt she was the ABSOLUTE BEST EVER ~ when does the fourth place person EVER come in first at the Olympics? That's what makes it the Olympics!

I want Kwan to go out there and kick *** & WIN her medal. Not be handed one. But I will say in terms of the public ~ while the hardcore fans might say she was handed the medal & didn't earn it... I will go out on a limb and say most emphatically that the general American public (78% who already think she has two OGM...) would not even think Scandal! They won't even understand the new judging system. The only scandal will be her skating clean with all that passion and her NOT winning. Just like in SLC. Difficulity will not come into play with the general public. Again, just like in SLC.

If she wins: They will think: "Wow! Michelle Kwan won! She always win! We Americans love a winner! Yay for her!" & buy her wheaties box & go to her shows & buy whatever type of product she'd be hawking... But then again, they'd do that anyway.

If she loses with a clean performance: They will think: "That stupid non-sport sucks! Every. Four. Years."They" fu**in' rob that poor girl of her medal! I will NOT watch this dumbass sport ever again! Change the scoring system, just to not let her win! WTF?!?" And then go out and buy her wheaties box & go to her shows & buy whatever type of product she'd be hawking.... But then again, they'd do that anyway.

So, please let us Kwan fans root for her because we know she's capable of winning that medal fair & square and she will... I'm telling you, it'd be the best thing for the SPORT! Michelle Kwan is going to be fine either way...

Kwanford Wife

 

[show 42]

Do you really think the Olympic judges are going to risk another scandal by giving the gold to someone who did not skate with near the difficulty the others skated with?

No, the judges will give the gold to the person they deem the best THAT night. If they all splat, travel on their spins, pop their jumps, allow nerves to take over, then the one with the least number of mistakes. Degree of difficulty is judged partly by what the others do to determine a winner. If they all skate poorly, then again, the one with the least number mistakes and the most points racked up.

Tannisming, may I ask why you are so down on Michelle? I have no problem with someone who doesn't like a particular skater, but you seem very fixated on her in particular. Just curious......... 42

 

[LegalGirl82]

I guess because of all the years we had to suffer through sleep inducing programs with little difficulties. If Michelle suddenly starts doing 3 axels, 3/3's ect, like Asada, Midori, and Harding, I will be rooting for her just like any other skater.

tannisming, you are aware that Michelle has done triple-triple combinations in competition, right?

 

[Fossi]

I don't have much of an opinion on Kwan, but I don't believe she will retire until after the Olympics. She had a beautiful short program at Worlds, and her long program earned 3rd place. My friend was confused because she couldn't understand how the other girls beat her in the short program portion. I really think the commentators need to educate the public on the rules of CoP. (My friend also wondered why "the little Italian girl didn't win silver after the LP instead of that American girl that skated sloppy and almost fell a few times." Not only do the skaters need to change for the CoP, the fans will need to change their thinking and the commentators need to educate.
oh, back to Michelle Kwan. I think she will stick around for the Olympics.

 

[Kathy]

I'm not sure educating the fans will help. I had friends who are casual skating fans that had the same kinds of comments. Michelle wasn't first in the SP? I tried to explain COP a bit and their response was interesting. "well then it won't interest me much, because whoever's program looks the best, stays on their feet and gives a moving performance should win - if not why watch." COP is not viewer friendly for the average skating fan and I don't think it ever will be - regardless of explanation. The average casual skating fan watches to see something beautiful, not complex and difficult but at times ugly. I don't think you'll ever convince the average fan that someone who falls once or twice should win over someone who doesn't. I think the fan base for skating will get smaller and smaller.

 

[Doggygirl]

I'm not sure educating the fans will help. I had friends who are casual skating fans that had the same kinds of comments. Michelle wasn't first in the SP? I tried to explain COP a bit and their response was interesting. "well then it won't interest me much, because whoever's program looks the best, stays on their feet and gives a moving performance should win - if not why watch." COP is not viewer friendly for the average skating fan and I don't think it ever will be - regardless of explanation. The average casual skating fan watches to see something beautiful, not complex and difficult but at times ugly. I don't think you'll ever convince the average fan that someone who falls once or twice should win over someone who doesn't. I think the fan base for skating will get smaller and smaller.

I totally agree that there are a wide variety of fans, from the people who actually skate and know of what they speak (not me!!) to the very casual (I'm somewhere in the middle). If a preponderance of TV viewers wanted to see pretty and totally clean skates, as opposed to competitive, athletically oriented skates, then the pro/show events logically would be more popular. But I don't think they are. I could be wrong though - I have no idea what actual viewership ratings have been between the eligible and pro/show over the last couple of years. Oh where is Kwanford when we need her!!!

DG

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I totally agree that there are a wide variety of fans, from the people who actually skate and know of what they speak (not me!!) to the very casual (I'm somewhere in the middle). If a preponderance of TV viewers wanted to see pretty and totally clean skates, as opposed to competitive, athletically oriented skates, then the pro/show events logically would be more popular. But I don't think they are. I could be wrong though - I have no idea what actual viewership ratings have been between the eligible and pro/show over the last couple of years. Oh where is Kwanford when we need her!!!

DG

Hey there! I'm here & pissed because I forgot about Survivour being on Wednesday ~ but skating comes on ESPN2 @ 10 pm est.

The viewership for pro skating shows is down because they are not competitions. People tune into the competitions ~ actually, pro-ams were a VERY popular format, because its the best of both worlds ~ you get to see everyone! But the USFSA put the nix on those... not to mention the competitive skaters with full schedules, including COI weren't as willing to risk injury... But does that surprise anyone?

In terms of the new CoP, think about how much time we spend trying to decipher this new form of torture and then think about it terms of people who don't know a lutz from a zamboni and do you still think the new judging system in an olympic year is such a good idea? Don't get me wrong, I don't see anything inharently bad, I'm just looking at it from the viewpoint of attracting new fans...

I could be wrong, but I honestly think the future of this sport rests on the results of the '06 games. Or is this tv withdrawl?

Kwanford Wife

 

[show 42]

Let's face it.........they don't broadcast skating competitions, shows, events, etc., just to please skating fans...........they want to attract viewers, new fans, so sponsors will put out the big bucks to get their products advertised. New fans may not understand the CoP, but they do understand clean skates where the athletes stay on their feet most of the time. Triple axles and quad jumps are fantastic but only when they're landed. That's what new fans understand. A fall mars the beauty of the skate whether it be pro or eligible. Who can't see that..............42

 

[soogar]

Average fans can tell the difference between a difficult program and an easier program. A program that is packed with footwork and spins with multiple positions will look more difficult than a simpler program. And of course average fans are all about the jumps and the quad.

Besides competitions aren't about appeasing the average fan (or any fan for that matter). Why should the ISU take into condition how fans will react to the judging in creating a scoring system? In no other judged sport is fan reaction a criteria for creating a judging system. Gymnastics and diving have their criteria and that's the way it is. Only the governing body is qualified to determine the rules and regulations of the sport.

 

[kyla2]

My Thoughts

Joesitz, I don't know if Michelle will retire this year but I am concerned that while certain aspects of her skating have improved (faster spins) her overall performances are declining. She seems unfocused to me. I am not sure why either. I believe her when she says she nailed the triple-triples in practices. But for the first time, she hasn't been able to bring them to the competition like she has in the past. I wonder if she isn't losing that mental edge that she has had all her competitive life, or perhaps her motivation. Or is it because she isn't doing the triple-triples as part of her complete run through of her programs? I don't know the answer. I think she has an excellent coach too, but does he push her like Frank did? Maybe he is afraid to push her for fear of ending up as an ex-coach? I am clueless as to where the truth of this situation lies. But I am seeing a trend that will be hard to turn around. For the past several years she has been watering down her programs and I am concerned that she will not be able to complete a loaded program with difficult choreography. Like you, I fear that she has too much catching up to do before the Olympics to be truly competitive. If she weren't travelling with the ice skating tour until August she might have a better chance to turn it around. Joe, I hope you are wrong about her retiring because 75% of the joy of figure skating will be gone for me. On a final note, I think Michelle Kwan is the greatest figure skater of all time, so I would love for her to retire on a high note.

 

[LegalGirl82]

If she weren't travelling with the ice skating tour until August she might have a better chance to turn it around.

kyla, don't worry, she's not touring until August. The last COI date this year is May 1.

 

[mememe]

t. "The viewership for pro skating shows is down because they are not competitions. People tune into the competitions ~ actually, pro-ams were a VERY popular format, because its the best of both worlds ~ you get to see everyone! But the USFSA put the nix on those... not to mention the competitive skaters with full schedules, including COI weren't as willing to risk injury... But does that surprise anyone?"


Uhm -- could you give me any statistics to back this up, please? It's been my experience that pro shows/competitions have usually out-pointed the amateur competitions/show by quite a bit in the ratings, and the pro/ams were among the lowest-rated competitions after the first few years of being quite well-received.

This year, the overnight ratings for Ice Wars (according to Zap2it.com) were, I think, about 4.9 (at least, that's what CBS got for the primetime night -- of course, Ice Wars was only two hours of the three-hour primetime night, and the first hour did pretty well with some Christmas programming). By contrast, ABC (according to the same source) had an overnight rating of 4.5 for the three-hour broadcast of U.S. Nationals in primetime in January. In other words, pretty comparable, with the pros perhaps a bit ahead (that isn't a final word, since overnight ratings often change by a few points once overall ratings are compiled). Yes, that's a lot lower than it used to be for Ice Wars, but that's also true for U.S. nations and world (when it used to be on network). Last year, I believe Ice Wars was ahead by a bit, or if not about the same, as U.S. nationals and worlds (which I think was lower rated than U.S. nationals). Ratings for BOTH pro and amateur events are down, as are ratings for a lot of sports and a lot of network programming..

As for "pro shows" vs. competitions, well, those are harder to compare because there are very few skating shows in primetime. But in looking at afternoon ratings, the Boitano Skating Spectacular (a pro non-competition) has been the top-rated afternoon skating show for the past several years (don't have an exact count), usually getting a 2.8 to 3.3 in the ratings, tho' I think it was edged out by one of the other Disson shows in 2004 because it went up against the Rose Bowl with Southern Cal going for a part of the national championship. Still, those Disson shows tend to do as well or usually better in the ratings than afternoon eligible competitions or "pro/ams." (A couple of years ago, the ratings list I saw had most of the Disson shows in the 2.0 to 3.3 range and most of the network eligible competitions -- Skate America, Skate Canada, even some of the other GP events when ABC was still doing them -- in the 1.5 to 2.2 range). So, pro shows were actually outpointing amateur competitions by quite a bit.

. Back in the mid- to late-90s, the World Pro primetime broadcast, along with Ice Wars and Gold Championship primetime broadcasts, got much higher ratings (in the 11-to-14 range) than comparable U.S. national and worlds coverage, which would often be in the 7-to-12 range. Can't compare worlds this year, since it wasn't on network TV, and I haven't seen the ratings for it this year -- for cable, it's not the actual rating number that counts as much as is that a good number for cable and how does it compare with other broadcasts that have been in that timeslot or other things that have gone up against comparable competition.). That is one of the reasons Cinquanta and his pals wanted to "take over" the pro competitions -- because they were getting better ratings than ISU events, and they wanted to get the money for the ISU and its members and, at the same time, downsize the entire figure skating competitive world so they had a corner on competitions. Worked at least halfway -- Ice Wars is the only network pro competitions left (World Team Challenge is there also, but doesn't get U.S. network broadcast), so very little competition for the ISU/GP events any more, especially since the ISU dumped the former pro competitions that became pro-ams very quickly (and my understading was that ratings on those dropped quickly when they went to pro-am fields -- outside of the first few years of pro-ams back in the mid-90s, the big-name pros tended to avoid the events and/or the format seemed to lose its luster and ratings dropped). But somehow or another, in spite of being basically the only game in town for competitions now, the ISU/GP ratings have NOT gone up nor become stronger. IInstead, the ISU LOST its U.S. network contract and its competitions are now strictly on cable, with only U.S. Nationals and Skate America, which are USFS-owned events and under a separate contract with ABC through 2007, still on U.S. network TV, along with the "challenge" series (meaning the Marshalls thing coming right up, along with the Campbells and whatever the other one was called this past December.). And that three-event series is also a USFS-owned thing that is part of the current ABC contract. It's ratings are among those "afternoon skating shows" that are dominated by the Disson pro shows. And those three events may disappear once the ABC contract is up -- ABC may not be willing to pay for them anymore, or may not even renew its contract for Nationals and Skate America. As for Ice Wars -- who knows? It's CBS contract was up last year (or maybe this year), and we'll have to wait and see if the network decides to keep having it. .

That's what I understand about pro vs. amateur competition/show ratings. Kwanford Wife may have access to statistics that I haven't seen (this is certainly not comprehensive) that indicate something very different. People do like competitions -- that's why the pro comps flourished along with amateur comps -- but at this point, it seems that skating competitions aren't particularly well-received, pro or amateur.

 

[Kathy]

um soogar - If skating does not appeal to the average fan then the sport is in real trouble. Say goodbye to the second rate TV coverage we have left. Say good-bye to endorsements for skaters. Say good-bye to the financial machine behind the sport. Now of course the scoring system has to be true to skating standards, however skating standards better have face value with the average viewer. Trust me skate fans like those on these boards are not enough to keep skating in the media. And I think your very wrong that the average viewer can tell a complicated COP program is better than a clean not so complicated program. Many of the so called loaded programs this season don't look jam packed. Many don't look complex, they look forced, mechanized, positions look odd, and sometimes outright ugly. Just for fun just go and show Michelle's worlds SP and Irina's worlds SP to the average viewer and see if they can tell that Irina's is more jam packed, more difficult and so full of "well done other stuff" that she should have won. They won't buy it. Yes even casual fans of eligible skating do love the athletics and jumps, but they also love clean beautiful and emotional performances. And for the average fan they'll love that complicated jump - as long as the skater can land it - getting more credit because you tried and landed on your butt than someone who lands what they try - well that doesn't make sense to any average fan - and it doesn't even make any sense to me.

 

[Mathman]

Why should the ISU take into condition how fans will react to the judging in creating a scoring system? In no other judged sport is fan reaction a criteria for creating a judging system.

Oh, I think any organization in the entertainment business does this. In baseball, they narrow the strike zone so there will be more home runs. In football they adjust the rules about pass interference to allow more spectacular plays. In basketball they widen the lanes and forbid a zone defense to get more scoring. In figure skating they abandoned figures (too boring for the fans, even though that was the sport.) All to please the fans and build popularity for the sport.

In hockey...OK, bad example. Hockey went out of business.

Mathman

 

[soogar]

Oh, I think any organization in the entertainment business does this. In baseball, they narrow the strike zone so there will be more home runs. In football they adjust the rules about pass interference to allow more spectacular plays. In basketball they widen the lanes and forbid a zone defense to get more scoring. In figure skating they abandoned figures (too boring for the fans, even though that was the sport.) All to please the fans and build popularity for the sport.

In hockey...OK, bad example. Hockey went out of business.

Mathman

So you're saying skating is an entertainment business?

The reason they abandoned figures was b/c they were extremely expensive to learn and required a lot of ice time and not that many nations could provide that for their skaters. Also the sport evolved in such a way that figures no longer was the benchmark of what a top skater was supposed to be. Figures used to be the main thing in figure skating until the freestyle skating evolved into a form that superceded figures. With all the added athletic requirements of triples and quads, figures isn't what the sport is about anymore.

They didn't make the decision to abandon figures based on fan reaction.

And if you're going to bring up Janet Lynn and the creation of the SP, that change came within the ISU itself b/c they wanted the most balanced skater to win the title and not a figures specialist to build up a huge lead.

 

[tannisming]

Soogar, I agree with your posts, mostly because they are based on reality instead of how some posters would like figure skating to be viewed. I just thank God for the CoP no matter what happens at Turin. I think it will benifit the skaters who actualy came prepared.

 

[show 42]

Soogar, I agree with your posts, mostly because they are based on reality instead of how some posters would like figure skating to be viewed. I just thank God for the CoP no matter what happens at Turin. I think it will benifit the skaters who actualy came prepared.

You crack me up, Tannis........you never give up..... 42