Michelle - The End or a New Beginning?

[Mathman]

Mathman - A 3x3 combo may only give the extra points according to the scale but you have to admit that there is a psychological affect on this very subjective sport. The judges go ga ga on everything else.

BTW, You didn't critique my suggestion of better music.

I agree on both points. Under the new judging system anyone who does a triple/triple (or a quad for men) will get extra points for, oh, choreography, interpretation, transitions, skating skills and execution, over a skater who doesn't.

About music, over the years, when Michelle was working with Lori Nichol I sent Nichol a total of maybe 50 CDs, for Michelle and her other skaters. I can't say that she ever used any of my suggestions, LOL, but anyway, I'm in there pitching.

What Lori Nicole gave Michelle in the music department was a series of unique musical selections that no one had ever skated to before -- or indeed, had ever heard of. Who had ever heard of the British composer William Alwyn, before Nicole and Michelle introduced us to his harp concerto, Lyra Angelica -- the music that Lori said she wanted to greet her when she arrived at St. Peter's gates?

I think that Michelle herself has less subtle and less well educated taste in music. She likes what she likes (as is evident from her selections for exhibition music). I wish she would invest some time and seek some advice about finding something truly unique to make her own next season. Look at what Jeff Buttle (Michelle's training partner at Lake Arrowhead) accomplished with his Philip Glass selection this year.

Mathman

 

[kyla2]

Michelle

MZHeng, I agree with Soogar that she needs to get her triple loop back. It IS reflective of a decline in her overall technical ability in some respects. Now she can do a triple-double-double in competition, but she left the triple-triple in practices. i don't know what is going on in her practices but I suspect trying to make a CoP friendly program after Nationals was a big mistake when you have been practicing a different program up until Nationals. I wonder if she is doing complete and LOADED run throughs of her program every day like she did with Frank? I suspect not. For 2006, she needs unique music, which has been beautifully choreographed with transitions etc(paging Lori Nichols). Then she needs to load it with the combinations, and practice in its final form, in complete run throughs for 6-8 moths before the Olympics if she has any chance of being competitive. Carolina Kostner has made significant improvements in her skating in one year and Irina may still be able to deliver the goods in a year as well. Sasha is more competitive under CoP now as well. Sadly, a clean program means nothing anymore.

 

[Mathman]

Most Americans don't really care who wins the OGM and if they do care, it would be just long enough for water cooler talk. Only figure skating fans get worked up about who wins the OGM.

That is so true. The average person does not care about who wins a gold medal in figure skating any more than they care who wins the Indianapolis 500 or the world soccer cup.

 

[Kathy]

Reports are that Michelle skated to Bolero at the opening COI, Reportedly she landed 6 triples and a double axel and one combination. She skated last with her hair down and her tights were back to normal. She replaced her spiral sequence with another footwork sequence - evidently did one straightline sequence and one circular sequence. Those there said it was a great performance. She also landed a 3flip in the operning and 4 2axels in a row in the finale. Kinda odd, but doesn't look like she's giving up on anything.

 

[Doggygirl]

Reports are that Michelle skated to Bolero at the opening COI, Reportedly she landed 6 triples and a double axel and one combination. She skated last with her hair down and her tights were back to normal. She replaced her spiral sequence with another footwork sequence - evidently did one straightline sequence and one circular sequence. Those there said it was a great performance. She also landed a 3flip in the operning and 4 2axels in a row in the finale. Kinda odd, but doesn't look like she's giving up on anything.

If so, good for her!! She is such a talented and decorated skater. The last couple of years have seemed like a struggle for her competitively, at her level. I hope she can "just go skate" and do what she does best!

DG

 

[Mathman]

That's great that Michelle did Bolero instead of her exhibition number. She must be mad and determined not to let that program beat her!

MM

 

[Fossi]

Really we're being too harsh on Kwan. Irina struggles with her 2axel. And she leaves it out when she practices only saving it for competition. Does anyone say she goes downhill?
Sasha has trouble with her triples in general. Shakey landings, falls, 2foots. She is the World silver medalits, but she can't skate a clean program to save her life!
I'd rather see a skater omit a loop than a skater that can barely land her jumps, 2foot, fall and have shakey landings.
Why all the focus on Kwan? What about Cohen?

 

[soogar]

Really we're being too harsh on Kwan. Irina struggles with her 2axel. And she leaves it out when she practices only saving it for competition. Does anyone say she goes downhill?
Sasha has trouble with her triples in general. Shakey landings, falls, 2foots. She is the World silver medalits, but she can't skate a clean program to save her life!
I'd rather see a skater omit a loop than a skater that can barely land her jumps, 2foot, fall and have shakey landings.
Why all the focus on Kwan? What about Cohen?

Well Irina does put the jump in competion. Michelle isn't even trying a 3 loop anymore. I personally don't care if a skater leaves an element out, but Michelle has been competing with a 3 loop successfully for years. It's odd that she doesn't feel confident with that jump to even put it in competition anymore. It is a sign of decline for her.

As for Sasha, she's never been a paragon of consistency so I don't even understand the need to even bring her into the thread. If Sasha was famous for skating clean programs and all of a sudden she is having problems, then I would attribute that to decline. She always has problems. Sill a flawed Sasha places higher than a clean Kwan under COP. She doesn't need to skate a clean program anymore.

 

[Piel]

Fossi, I think since Kwan finished off of the podium the non Kwans feel it is open season on her. For the first time in 10 years they have a chance to vent their frustration over her finishing ahead of their favorites. The nit picking will continue and the Kwans will continue to collectively roll our eyes when we see it, and life goes on.

 

[BronzeisGolden]

Sill a flawed Sasha places higher than a clean Kwan under COP

I would agree with this in theory to a degree, but I don't think it is wise to automatically assume this based on one competition......and one very inconsistent, bad competition for Michelle. Michelle's programs were not that COP friendly this year and she didn't perform them anywhere near her potential. If she improves the elements she needs to and puts in the work, there is no reason to believe she can't be competitive with Sasha or Irina. A lackluster, mistake-filled, COP-challenged "Bolero" still garnered a respectable score in the LP at Worlds. There is light at the end of this tunnel for Michelle....if she chooses to accept this great challenge.

Michelle isn't even trying a 3 loop anymore

Certainly, this could be a sign of a decline in technical ability. But, I tend to view it more as a good decision in terms of a COP strategy. If this jump is an unreliable, shaky element...why risk it under a system that will not penalize her for omitting it? She gets more points for completing a second 3f, anyway. The 3l has always been somewhat of a problem for her, but the real issues with it really seemed to appear in 2000. She started placing the jump in the beginning of the program. She just doesn't seem comfortable with this jump. Under the 6.0 system, she needed it. Under this new system, she really doesn't. If the rest of the jumps are strong and she improves all of the other technical elements for next year, I could care less about a 3l.

 

[michaelfsfan]

What Lori Nichol gave Michelle in the music department was a series of unique musical selections that no one had ever skated to before -- or indeed, had ever heard of. Who had ever heard of the British composer William Alwyn, before Nicole and Michelle introduced us to his harp concerto, Lyra Angelica -- the music that Lori said she wanted to greet her when she arrived at St. Peter's gates?

Mathman

ITA Mathman. From 1996-2001, when Lori was Michelle's choreographer, her music choices for both programs were unique, distinctive, interesting and unusual. The music cuts for her programs were also very well-chosen, and they blended seamlessly into the entire program. For example, the music cuts to "Salome" comprised of three different pieces (Salome's Dance from Miklos Rosza's "King of Kings" and the Richard Strauss opera, and In the Village from Ippolitov-Ivanov's "Caucasian Sketches") and "Lyra Angelica" bookended Erik Satie's "Gymnopedie No.3".

After she left Lori, Michelle's choices for her program music regressed to more generic choices (ie Scheherazade, Tosca and Bolero) just as her choreography has become less interesting. I don't see the intricate moves, the attention to detail and the music/character specific choreography anymore. One of her most beautiful moves was the way the extended landing of her double axel merged into the choreography in "Salome", whatever she does nowaday hardly compares to that.

However, all is not lost. "The Feeling Begins" and "Spartacus" are great SPs, and I hope she goes back to working with Lori to rediscover the "magic" they had together.

 

[lavender]

Michelle did include a loop in her program. It was just a double. She might have doubled it anyway.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think Kwan really hasn't been working as hard post-2002. Since SLC, Michelle has said that she wanted to skate on her own terms and even said that she thought about taking a short break from eligibile competion until her sister and others told her how difficult it would have been to get back on form when trying to come back.

I think that since Torino is here, and if Kwan decides to stay on next season, then she'll start training the same way she did pre-2003. She pretty much said that in that Brennan interview on ESPN when Kwan said that after Moscow, she'll really decide if she wants to stay till Torino and if she does then she's going to have to do certain things in order to be prepared.

I happen to think that Kwan really does have Torino in mind. I know Kwan has said she wanted to improve before and really didn't do it and showed up with the same program last season, but this season...as boring as Worlds Bolero was, it was a lot more COP friendly than the other versions were and Kwan did do things she wouldn't have done if the COP were not implemented. Also, when she said that last season, she just said "improve" in general and was vague about it. In her post-Worlds interview, Kwan named specific things that she knew she had to work on: transitions, jump entrances.

The only thing I'm really afraid of is Kwan being scared back into her comfort zone, but the 6.0 never really reprimanded her for that, but now that her back is against the wall, I think Kwan feels taht she will have to push herself from that comfort zone and get back to form. Let's hope anyway.

 

[michaelfsfan]

I believe that Michelle's subpar performance at this year's Worlds may have more to do with her preparations than her general quality of skating. I think Michelle made the mistake of choreographing Bolero according to the 6.0 system, and further compounded the problem by stripping away the original choreography with each competition. When Bolero had its debut performance at Campbells, I thought it had the potential to be as good as, if not better than Aranjuez and Tosca. Unfortunately, as the season progressed, the program became less and less cohesive, especially in terms of choreography. The version she skated at Worlds had even less choreography than Nationals, which had already been pared down to accommodate more technical elements in the program. Perhaps that, together with the revisions to make Bolero CoP friendly, might explain why Michelle skated tentatively and cautiously, especially in the QR, and didn’t “sell” the program to the judges and audiences, like she normally does. If she had done what Irina had done, ie embrace CoP totally and incorporate all the added technical difficulty (ie 3/2/2 combination, spins etc) into Bolero at the start of the season, instead of shoehorning them in between Nationals and Worlds, then she would have had more time and opportunities to finetune the program and it would have boosted her confidence too.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I thought Michelle skated a first rate SP which was not given the proper scoring. I think, too, that Spartacus would have been a better LP.

Joe

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Uhm -- could you give me any statistics to back this up, please? It's been my experience that pro shows/competitions have usually out-pointed the amateur competitions/show by quite a bit in the ratings, and the pro/ams were among the lowest-rated competitions after the first few years of being quite well-received.

This year, the overnight ratings for Ice Wars (according to Zap2it.com) were, I think, about 4.9 (at least, that's what CBS got for the primetime night -- of course, Ice Wars was only two hours of the three-hour primetime night, and the first hour did pretty well with some Christmas programming). By contrast, ABC (according to the same source) had an overnight rating of 4.5 for the three-hour broadcast of U.S. Nationals in primetime in January. In other words, pretty comparable, with the pros perhaps a bit ahead (that isn't a final word, since overnight ratings often change by a few points once overall ratings are compiled). Yes, that's a lot lower than it used to be for Ice Wars, but that's also true for U.S. nations and world (when it used to be on network). Last year, I believe Ice Wars was ahead by a bit, or if not about the same, as U.S. nationals and worlds (which I think was lower rated than U.S. nationals). Ratings for BOTH pro and amateur events are down, as are ratings for a lot of sports and a lot of network programming..

As for "pro shows" vs. competitions, well, those are harder to compare because there are very few skating shows in primetime. But in looking at afternoon ratings, the Boitano Skating Spectacular (a pro non-competition) has been the top-rated afternoon skating show for the past several years (don't have an exact count), usually getting a 2.8 to 3.3 in the ratings, tho' I think it was edged out by one of the other Disson shows in 2004 because it went up against the Rose Bowl with Southern Cal going for a part of the national championship. Still, those Disson shows tend to do as well or usually better in the ratings than afternoon eligible competitions or "pro/ams." (A couple of years ago, the ratings list I saw had most of the Disson shows in the 2.0 to 3.3 range and most of the network eligible competitions -- Skate America, Skate Canada, even some of the other GP events when ABC was still doing them -- in the 1.5 to 2.2 range). So, pro shows were actually outpointing amateur competitions by quite a bit.

. Back in the mid- to late-90s, the World Pro primetime broadcast, along with Ice Wars and Gold Championship primetime broadcasts, got much higher ratings (in the 11-to-14 range) than comparable U.S. national and worlds coverage, which would often be in the 7-to-12 range. Can't compare worlds this year, since it wasn't on network TV, and I haven't seen the ratings for it this year -- for cable, it's not the actual rating number that counts as much as is that a good number for cable and how does it compare with other broadcasts that have been in that timeslot or other things that have gone up against comparable competition.). That is one of the reasons Cinquanta and his pals wanted to "take over" the pro competitions -- because they were getting better ratings than ISU events, and they wanted to get the money for the ISU and its members and, at the same time, downsize the entire figure skating competitive world so they had a corner on competitions. Worked at least halfway -- Ice Wars is the only network pro competitions left (World Team Challenge is there also, but doesn't get U.S. network broadcast), so very little competition for the ISU/GP events any more, especially since the ISU dumped the former pro competitions that became pro-ams very quickly (and my understading was that ratings on those dropped quickly when they went to pro-am fields -- outside of the first few years of pro-ams back in the mid-90s, the big-name pros tended to avoid the events and/or the format seemed to lose its luster and ratings dropped). But somehow or another, in spite of being basically the only game in town for competitions now, the ISU/GP ratings have NOT gone up nor become stronger. IInstead, the ISU LOST its U.S. network contract and its competitions are now strictly on cable, with only U.S. Nationals and Skate America, which are USFS-owned events and under a separate contract with ABC through 2007, still on U.S. network TV, along with the "challenge" series (meaning the Marshalls thing coming right up, along with the Campbells and whatever the other one was called this past December.). And that three-event series is also a USFS-owned thing that is part of the current ABC contract. It's ratings are among those "afternoon skating shows" that are dominated by the Disson pro shows. And those three events may disappear once the ABC contract is up -- ABC may not be willing to pay for them anymore, or may not even renew its contract for Nationals and Skate America. As for Ice Wars -- who knows? It's CBS contract was up last year (or maybe this year), and we'll have to wait and see if the network decides to keep having it. .

That's what I understand about pro vs. amateur competition/show ratings. Kwanford Wife may have access to statistics that I haven't seen (this is certainly not comprehensive) that indicate something very different. People do like competitions -- that's why the pro comps flourished along with amateur comps -- but at this point, it seems that skating competitions aren't particularly well-received, pro or amateur.

I'm not sure what stats you're looking for... your post underscores my original point... 1. Skating on tv is in decline. 2. Pro/Am competitions were a popular format 3. Advertising dollars spent by title sponsors & general advertisers has declined since the late 90s BUT more money is spend during Nationals & Worlds.

But here is some information that might answer your questions...

1. In 2003, Worlds received a lower neilson rating overall, but the Thursday primetime version was up against Friends & Survivor... No contest.

2. Compared to other sporting events shown on Saturday & Sunday afternoons, figure skating is approx. 38% more popular than skiing but 62% less popular than golf... NASCAR is a law unto itself & rivals even football...

3. 2004's Ice Wars & Brian B's holiday show were classified as holiday programming, not a sporting event. Which is part of the overall issue, imo...

KW

 

[mzheng]

MZHeng, I agree with Soogar that she needs to get her triple loop back. It IS reflective of a decline in her overall technical ability in some respects. Now she can do a triple-double-double in competition, but she left the triple-triple in practices. i don't know what is going on in her practices but I suspect trying to make a CoP friendly program after Nationals was a big mistake when you have been practicing a different program up until Nationals. I wonder if she is doing complete and LOADED run throughs of her program every day like she did with Frank? I suspect not. For 2006, she needs unique music, which has been beautifully choreographed with transitions etc(paging Lori Nichols). Then she needs to load it with the combinations, and practice in its final form, in complete run throughs for 6-8 moths before the Olympics if she has any chance of being competitive. Carolina Kostner has made significant improvements in her skating in one year and Irina may still be able to deliver the goods in a year as well. Sasha is more competitive under CoP now as well. Sadly, a clean program means nothing anymore.

According to my source her jumps now are much biger than when she first came to Rafael. She started to practice different 3/3 regulary this season this was not something she did post SLC. As far as triple loop gose for past two seasons the triple loop she landed in competetions most time were 1/4 cheated, which is risky under new CoP rule being downgraded. Rafael had worked on her loop entry. The loop was too shaky to put in her program, according to Rafael, based on CoP strategy two lutz and tow flip earned more points. (I would like to see some bonus mark rewarded to skaters who finished (not try) all 5 different triple in LP under the CoP). She can do level 3 spin but may be ugly, but who cares as long as points......To me these were NOT indicating her technique declines. But I do ack that she looked 'heavier' than before.

She dose do full program run throughs in practice session. The way she dose those runthroughs in her practice sessions "She'd kill herself like that"--from Angela her trainning partner. Her skates in this worlds were far from what she did in practice. Being in 12 consective worlds it is hard to imagine that her body at natural 'peak' states in every one of them.

 

[mememe]

I'm not sure what stats you're looking for... your post underscores my original point... 1. Skating on tv is in decline. 2. Pro/Am competitions were a popular format 3. Advertising dollars spent by title sponsors & general advertisers has declined since the late 90s BUT more money is spend during Nationals & Worlds.

I'm still not clear with what you're trying to say, then. Your original point (at least the one my post was addressing was:

From Kwanford Wife:
"The viewership for pro skating shows is down because they are not competitions. People tune into the competitions ~ actually, pro-ams were a VERY popular format, because its the best of both worlds ~ you get to see everyone! But the USFSA put the nix on those... not to mention the competitive skaters with full schedules, including COI weren't as willing to risk injury... But does that surprise anyone?"

Your answer to my post is that your original point was "skating on TV is in decline?" Huh? In the post above, that I answered, you said viewship for PRO shows was down because they weren't competitions. That's a bit different that "skating on TV is in a decline." Yes, my post did indicate that skating ratings on TV are down, but not just PRO skating, and not just pro skating SHOWS. Ratings for all skating is down, but the pro shows still hold a lead in ratings over eligible competitions -- or did during the time when both were on network TV in the afternoons. (That info came from artitron ratings and from USA Today lists of Nielsen ratings, when USA Today ran ratings of each night's primetime ratings -- the afternoon ratings came from network rating services). That can't be measured as much now, since eligible competitions are, other than Skate America and U.S. nationals, not shown on network TV in the U.S. any more. I was taking issue with your contention that pro skating ratings are down because the majority of pro skating broadcasts are shows, rather than competitions. And since you've still failed to give me any source to back up your contention, well, I can't see where you've proven your point.

As for "2. Pro/Am competitions were a popular format," again, WHERE did you get this info? My perusal of ratings from those time periods were that pro/ams seldom, if ever, matched or exceeded the ratings of straight pro or straight eligible competitions (the original all-pro World Pro, Gold Championship and Ice Wars got much better ratings than the Ultimate Four, the first pro-am World Pro or the Hallmark Skater's Championship prime-time pro-ams that followed that) -- the only exceptions might have been in the very, very early going of pro-ams, when it was Scott Hamilton, Paul Wylie, Brian Boitano, Kristi Yamaguchi, etc., who were the pros doing the pro-ams -- that is back in the mid-90s. After about 1996 -- and most especially after the 1998 ISU takeover of most of the all-pro events -- the biggest-name PROS, not the eligibles, began to do those events less and less, and the ratings, were never that good (the good old pro SHOWS would do better, ratings-wise, than afternoon broadcasts of the pro-ams and cheesfests -- that's supposed to show what a popular format pro-ams were?). It wasn't the eligibles who didn't want to do the pro-ams -- after all, Todd E. and Michelle K. got in trouble for wanting to do those rather than the GP events, and Michelle has done few if any GP events since 2002 (really, since 1998), but she hasn't missed a cheesefest and was in most of the pro-ams through those years, too. It was the GP events they were willing to miss to try to avoid injury.

And for the third point about advertising -- again, it wasn't in your original contention that I was answering, and I don't see any figures to back up this most recent point -- sponsorships are the only reason the pro shows get on TV (Disson makes a time-buy and then sells the sponsorships and advertising himself to make his money back) and there are more pro shows on network TV than eligible or pro competitions, so ... ah heck, why go on? This discussion doesn't fit into what this thread is about anyway, and it appears you have no data to back up your contentions, anyway, so why continue?

On the subject of this thread -- I think Michelle has as good a chance as anyone to do well in the code of points if she buckles down and follows the "rules" as they are -- I'm not sure how happy she'll be with the results of doing a paint-by-number short and long program, but if she wants to win, she'll figure out how to maximize her points and do whatever kind of program it takes to do that. It doesn't appear that COP really demands you push the envelope nor that you be able to master all aspects of the sport, you just have to be blessed to be talented in whatever flavor of the month gets the most points (right now in singles, Biellman position) or be able to figure out how to get to a level 3 in as many areas as possible, and be satisfied with putting level 3s in your programs, whether you can do them well or not. A poorly done level 3 spin is likely to give you more points than a well-done level 1 or 2 spin. A triple loop isn't necessary -- just tack on a couple of double jumps at the end of a few triples and be sure to fully rotate every kind of triple you try -- even if you stumble or fall on the landing, if it's fully rotated you can still rack up points.

 

[Mathman]

About the popularity of shows versus competitions, does anyone know if the two kinds of entertainments attract a different demographic in viewership (or in live audience, for that matter). Do the two different formats gain sponsorship from different sources, or are they competing against each other for sponsors' dollars?

It seemed to me that the pro-am competitions in the 1998-99 year were quite poplular, although I do not have any Nielsen numbers to back up that perception. This is despite the fact that Michelle and Alexei Y. couldn't be beaten that year and many pros (Kristi, for instance) stayed away.

To me, one reason why professional shows continue to hold on to their popularity, compared to the Grand Prix events, for instance, is that obviously the pros are so much better skaters. After all, every person in the SOI cast is a world champion or Olympic medalist, who then went on from there.

So I think it boils down to, do you want to see good skating, or do you want the thrill of victory/agony of defeat thing that competitive sports offers.

Mathman

 

[Mathman]

I just noticed something interesting about the Lps at Worlds. Michelle presented a more difficult program than Irina did, according to the CoP. The base value for Michelle's program was 56.7 and for Irina it was 56.1.

Despite having weaker technical content, Irina won handily by getting a lot of positive GOEs and component scores, while Michelle had negative GOEs on two of her jumps.

I guess Irina better beef up her program for next year, if she wants to compete under the CoP, LOL.

MM