Michelle's Spins

[maxell1313]

Re: Michelle's spins

Has Michelle done her opposite spin in any program of late? I know she did them in her Lyra program, but since then?

I would like to see her spin faster, and it does look like she's partially improved on her spins from her performances at Campbells and Skate America.

 

[ApacheApache]

Spinning In Both Directions

Heyang said "Another reason that MK's spins might be slower than some would like... she can spin in both directions. It is very difficult to spin against your natural preference. I recall one comentator saying that some judges reward this well in the technical mark since very few can do it. By learning to spin in the opposite direction, she may have slowed her natural direction. This can also affect the quick rotation needed to complete some jumps. "

Speaking of that, what skaters were/are able to do that? Is it that difficult to do? Was Peggy's comment at National 1998 "It's like writing with your left hand if you're a right-hander" correct? How many of you guys have attempted it?

 

[sk8m8]

Re: Spinning In Both Directions

a,a
I can barely spin in one direction. A simple answer to the question about spinning is this....EVERYTHING done on the ice requires Kinetic or "muscle" memory. From the simplest balance and stroking to the most complex jumps and spins, the body's "internal" memory must be in place or no dice. Skaters tend to everything in one general direction. That is the reason that changes of directions in footwork and oppositional positions are rewarded so highly and refelcted in the marks. Rarely can people ever learn to do this, never mind do it well. It's like learning to spin all over again because you have to find a different center of gravity and have to bulid up the muscles in the other leg one which you normally don't spin or the one's you don't use to spin in the opposite direction that you normally are spinning. The very thought does make my head spin<img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif" />
Not only is it as difficult to learn to do as writing with your other hand, it would be equal to learning to dance in the other "role" ie. lead or follow depending on what you do. It is equally confusing because not only do you have to do it, you have to override your mind's desire to say," hey, your doing a spin, you want to go THIS WAY!" I've know people who,in tennnis, never hit a backhand. They hit forehands on either wing. In every case they learned to play tennis that way. In no case had anyone ever developed a backhand and then learned to hit forehands with both arms. I've only ever know one doctor who was able to learn to play "opposite armed" when he blew out a rotator cuff in his right shoulder and then he went from being an "A" competitor to a level "C".

 

[FetalAttraction]

Re: Spinning In Both Directions

Michelle spins even slower when she does her clockwise camel, blah, might as well drop it, which she did. Ilia Klimkin, on the other hand, does camels of decent speed in both directions directly into a triple salchow, very impressive.

 

[rgirl181]

Re: Spinning In Both Directions

Just to clarify something about ApacheApache, since s/he doesn't often post here. For those who might not be familiar with ApacheApache, s/he has stated in previous posts that he is new to skating so he asks a lot of questions, and also, that the only reason he even became interested in skating was because of Michelle, whom he absolutely loves. Without Michelle, AA has said he wouldn't even have paid attention to skating. So ApacheApache is a true Kwan fan, just so that's clear.

As for me, as I've said many times before, I'm Kwan-neutral but to me, technical problems are technical problems, all skaters have them. But technical problems are also subjective. What is "medium fast" to one person is "oh so slow" to another.

Anyway, as to the question about the speed of Michelle's spins: I have wondered about this too since the one program in which I really loved Michelle's skating was "Rush" and I had noticed that her spinning was a lot faster in "Rush" than I had ever seen it before or since. At that time, fall of '99 or '00 IIRC, "Rush" was one of the first programs choreographed by someone other than Lori Nichol that Michelle had used as a competitive program in several years. Christopher Dean, the choreographer, is known to be both a perfectionist and a taskmaster. He wants things a certain way and pushes the skaters he works with very hard until they get it. If he wanted speed on the spins, my guess would be that Dean made sure he got it. For reasons no one really is sure of, "Rush" was dropped as Michelle's SP for that season and replaced with a reworked version of "East of Eden," which started out as an exhibition/tour program.

As for the musicality question, I don't agree that Michelle spins more slowly to be in sync with the music. I saw her skate live with COI every year from '95 until '00 and also in competition in '98. She skated to a variety of tempos but the spins were always the same speed--slow. Well-centered, yes, but exceptionally slow, IMO, for a skater at her level. I think Michelle is not a naturally fast spinner and that in order to get a consistently good fast spin, the amount of training involved would necessarily have taken up a lot of training time, time she probably did not have because of having to train for everything else plus keep up with her competitive schedule. This fall, however, Michelle has had a lot of time to train and I'm hoping we will see faster spins from her at Nationals because of it. I finally did see the downloaded version of her new SP, the one in which some people had said the spins seemed a lot faster. I have a couple of skating programs online that I've also seen on TV and the choppy quality of the online versions simply makes it impossible to accurately gauge things like speed on spins and speed in general. You can see some things clearly, such as the jump height on her 3Lutz, which was much higher than I had ever seen her do before. But on the 3flip, the online version "chopped" right at the moment of maximum height, so you couldn't tell anything about height on that jump. I bring this up for two reasons: One, I think the obvious increased jump height on the Lutz is an indication that Michelle is probably working on improving new technical areas, and two, that the quality of computer video is such that one just can't tell how fast the spins are. I'm hoping Michelle's speed is improved on her spins, but I'll just have to wait until Nationals to see.

Spinning fast is also difficult and takes a certain kind of endurance. To build up that endurance also takes training time. Maybe this fall Michelle will finally have had the time to work on both her spinning speed and endurance. This is also the first time Michelle is setting her own priorities in conjunction with her coach regarding training. (I don't count last year since she was working without a coach.) Personally, I had always wondered why back in '98 Frank had Michelle spinning in both directions in "Lyra" when her spins were her weakest element. I just thought it was a bad coaching choice. Vanessa Gusmeroli and Ilia Klimkin also spin in both directions but they were/are both strong spinners to begin with. BTW, I think Michelle dropped the camel spins in both directions after "Lyra," although it would be best to ask someone who is well-versed in Michelle's programs about that.

Anyway, I think for Michelle, the lack of speed on her spins has been a combination of not being a naturally fast spinner and lack of focus on spin training. Even Frank acknowledged that Michelle needed work on her spins when he talked about bringing in a special coach (I forget her name and the year) known as "The Spin Doctor" for Michelle. Also, Doris mentioned Scott Davis and someone else Liz Manley as examples of great natural spinners who with training became phenomenal spinners. For Scott, unfortunately, the problems with vertigo ultimately were disastrous. Vertigo could be a problem for Michelle; we just don't know. However, Michelle herself has said she knows she has areas in her skating she wants to improve on and perhaps the speed on her spins is one of them. Hopefully we'll see some speed at Nationals.
Rgirl
PS In dance, one is taught to do everything in both directions from day one. One learns turns or <em>pirourettes</em> going both right and left, although everyone usually has a stronger turning side. Skating, however, is a <strong>lot</strong> more difficult than dancing, so you generally have to concentrate one doing things in one direction. Ice dancers tend to be more "ambidextrous" but they're not doing elements like jumps and spins.

 

[berthes ghost]

Re: Spinning In Both Directions

I don't think that Kwan works hard to improve her spins because she doesn't really have to. Maybe it's true what you say, maybe she is the slowest spinner in the top 6 ladies, but her spins were good enough to give her 4 world championships. The few times that she actually came in second or 3rd, I highly doubt that it was because of her spins. Spins just don't get the same credit as jumps. Nagano is the only comp I can think of where she didn't fall on a jump or two and the other lady skated clean. Still, I think that it was Tara's 3/3s that gave her the edge, not her faster spins.

I don't think that the oposite spins were a bad coaching choice. If your skater is weaker in one area than her chief rivals, then find some other way to highlight her strengths. Tara and Irina may spin fast, but they never spun in the other direction. This made Kwan different. Also, spinning in the oposite direction is usually associated with "artists" (Curry, Klimkin,etc..) not "athletes". If Kwan couldn't match the speed or 3/3s of Tara and Irina, then playing up the fact that she had better artestry and making reference to great Oly champs of the past who are famous for their artestry like Curry makes seems smart to me.

BTW, I think that she kept the oposite spinning in her LP up until Schez.

Speaking of Schez, I think that this, like the oposite spins of 98, were a deliberate attempt by Carol to remind the judges of Curry and to establish the link between Kwan and other Oly champs who became legends because of their artestry.

She'll probably never be as fast as Irina, so why waste all that time speeding up spins instead of practicing 3/3s when she ususally wins on the second mark anyway.

 

[Joesitz]

Re: Spinning In Both Directions

In dance (not skating), one learns to spin (pirrouette) in both directions from day one. We don't do that in skating. The skater is working an arena setting so bi-directional spins are not really necesssary. Jumping in both directions is still more problematic in skating.

In dance again, slow pirrouettes are considered much more difficult than fast ones. Obviously the amount of time on one's toes is limited.

In skating, speed is utmost importance to be effective in any given trick. Speed makes the moves easier. There is, however, a fear factor with speed. Missed jumps at high speed makes for a baaad fall. A triple axel at slow speed is not easy.

Boys in ballet can do triples but remember, it is from a standstill and the feet have to land precisely. When they do double and triple 'saute de basques' (it's like an axel) they are travelling around the stage - easier.

I've always admired Surya when executing a double axel from basically a standstill - not easy.

Joe

 

[rgirl181]

Re: You Spin Me Round Like a Skater Round Round

Berthe's Ghost,
I think it's very true what you say. In fact, it was in the back of my mind when I said the thing about there being only so many training hours in the day, ie, if you don't need the speed on the spins and it's going to take away training time from other things you do need, you've got to make a choice. And you are absolutely right about spins not getting much credit from the judges.

I have a question about "Sheh" though. Didn't Sarah Kawahawa choreograph that? Or did Frank decide before he and Michelle split that that would be her LP music and Michelle stuck with it? I really don't know.

Last point: If you were referring to me, I never said Michelle was the slowest spinner of the top six ladies. But now that I think about it, I'd say she is. But she's got much better line that Suguri and Onda, and better centering than Irina. Anyway, the question wasn't can Michelle win with relatively slow spins (obviously she has and does). The question(s) concerned the speed of Michelle's spins and every time I've seen them except in the one performance I saw her do of "Rush," they were slow. Not a criticism of Michelle, just a technical observation. I'd like to see her spins get faster, myself, but I'm sure others love them just the way they are.
Rgirl

 

[SteveKmetko374]

Re: Michelle's spins

Button complained about MK's layback when she was doing the "classic" layback, her leg was not turned out enough and was sagging a bit, she correct this in 2000 and also the speed and I think he noted the improvement during his commentary. Now she is doing a variation which has a different leg position so it is no longer an issue for her. As for speed, I think sometimes skaters slow down a spin to go with the music (i.e. lyra angelica) and sometimes they are just slow. Certainly some skaters exhibit fast spins on a regular basis (Ruh, Eldredge). I think Michelle's spins are acceptable, especially due to her form (straight back and centering) although she could improve them a bit if she wanted to - with more flexibility on the layback for instance. Other skaters show spin faster usually give up form and centering in order to gain speed, so the two kind of even each other out. To beat Michelle on spins, a skater would need to be fast, well centered and maintain perfect form. I think Sasha is the only person I can think of who is doing this - at least form/speed. I don't know if she travels a lot on her spins.

 

[ApacheApache]

Re: Michelle's spins

Rgirl said "Just to clarify something about ApacheApache, since s/he doesn't often post here. For those who might not be familiar with ApacheApache, s/he has stated in previous posts that he is new to skating so he asks a lot of questions, and also, that the only reason he even became interested in skating was because of Michelle, whom he absolutely loves. Without Michelle, AA has said he wouldn't even have paid attention to skating. So ApacheApache is a true Kwan fan, just so that's clear."

Rgirl, thanks so much. I appreciate it. I can't believe you remember that <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\"> .

You mentioned Michelle spun fast in Rush. However in Red Violin Worlds 2000, she spun even faster. It is from that competition I realised Michelle is definitely capable of spinnig fast.

Off topic, I don't think I will ever become a figureskating fan like you will never become a Michelle fan. I hope one day you will see something in her skating. Perhaps, you have been evaluating her skating by different criteria, your own criteria. Remember our debate on "100m people can't be wrong and the earth being round and stuff"? You did explain a lot in many posts why her skating just wouldn't do it for you but I failed to understand what you were trying to say. No, it's me. I have little knowledge of artistry, dance...etc it's just not my cup of tea in the first place. I love Michelle's skating because I find it aesthetically pleasing and very smooth (typical layman's description).:lol: Oh by the way, I'm a he.

 

[mathman444]

Re: Michelle's spins

I think that the only two weaknesses in Michelle's skating are, she needs to spin faster and she needs to jump higher. If she can't spin any faster without sacrificing centering, and if she can't jump any higher without compromising the run-out, then so be it. She's still the greatest. But if she could improve in these two areas she would be utterly without peer.

I don't think that she should waste her time trying to come up with harder triple-triples. If she presented rock-solid-every-time-out triple toe/triple toe and triple Lutz/double loop, together with higher jumps, faster spins, and all of the things that she is already the best at, she couldn't be beaten no matter what Sasha, Irina, Sarah or anybody else did.

BTW, I think that if Michelle had her choice she would rather be a jumping bean than a diva. If she had her druthers I bet she would rather have a triple Axel than a sudden insight into how to interpret the music of French impressionism.

Mathman

 

[Joesitz]

Re: Michelle's spins

Mathman - I don't find Michelle's height in jumps is wanting. She doesn't jump like Victoria but she jumps a heluva lot higher than Tara.

Since the sport has gone towards the jumps in particular, she doesn't really have to worry about the spins which indeed she could speed up at least to the old days.

It's the air rotations in combo. It may be too late to work on them, Sarah is the best technical skater in the USA, imo. Sasha is more of an artistic skater but that gets in the way of the technical, imo.

Joe

 

[SHINE2002]

Re: Michelle's spins

I agree with Joe. IMO Michelle's only weaknesses are all in her spins. She needs more varied positions and greater speed.
But her jumps are absolutely beautiful when she does them right. Of course, she doesn't have the Irina/Vika height that makes you drop your jaw, but it's also among the top, and she has one of the smootheset technique out there. When her jumps are on, they flow so smoothly and effortlessly into and out. She doesn't have a pause before picking in, and starts rotating immediately after the pick-in. Her rotations look very natural and make a beautiful curve. When she is landing, she has a lovely knee bend that looks natural instead of overdone like some others. She also has one of the best speed flowing out of her jumps. They are natural and effortless, and cover quite an amount ice, all done in one breath.
But of course, we are only talking about when her jumps are on, which has been a rare occasion in the past 2 seasons and only starting to reemerge perhaps this season. *fingers crossed*

 

[rgirl181]

Re: Loving Skaters Slow or Fast

ApacheApache,
I remember you and what you said because I always think your questions are very interesting I didn't mention Michelle's spinning in "The Red Violin" because I don't remember it. I have it on tape but my filing system--video and mental--is pretty lame. I take your word for it, but I find it best for myself only to comment on what I can either distinctly remember or check on tape. The next time my eyes happen to fall on my tape with "Red Violin"--a program I like a lot, btw--I will check out Michelle's spins8o

As for the reasons why I'm not a big Kwan fan, I wouldn't even think of boring everybody <strong>again</strong> with stating them--especially not right before Nationals But I will say that I don't think it matters one whit whether someone knows anything about artistry, dance, skating, or anything at all except his or her own humanity. It only matters that you love what you love. Besides, descriptions like flow, grace, line, etc. are all abstract and subjective. What is great flow to one person is so-so flow to another.

Actually, Joe and others have helped me out here with Joe's thread "What Makes You Sit Up for a Skater?" I'll steal two examples from that thread: Thartell says, "For the most part I'd say it is somewhat intangible. I have no skating/dance background, so I don't watch with a technical eye...What it comes down to for me is does the skater grab me? Do they have that intangible quality that draws me in to what they are doing?" I have mostly a dance and some skating background, and ITA with Thartell. An example of a skater would be Irina. I liked her from the first time I saw her corny Broadway medley program that won Europeans in '96. If I listed all the pros and cons about her skating, I'd probably have more cons, but the whole is greater than the sum of its parts--which I often find to be the case with performers and artists of all kinds. This season, however, Irina's LP to "La Traviata" is wretched. When I first saw her skate it, I thought her skating abilities had collapsed. But when I saw her skate an old program, "Samson and Delilah" at Hallmark, I saw that she was still the skater I loved, it was just the performance and choreography of "La Traviata" that had collapsed. Anyway, the point is, talking about Irina's or any skater's technical weaknesses doesn't make me like him or her any less. Of course I'll argue my POV on a matter of pure opinion, for example if someone says "Irina hasn't got a clue about artistry." But if someone says, "Irina travels on her spins," of course I would agree.

The second thing I'll steal from Joe's thread (sorry to have threads crossbreeding here) is from Fetal: Fetal says his two favorite skaters are Michelle and Yags and lists his reasons. I agree with everything Fetal says, yet I love Yags but Michelle is "not my cup of tea." If someone listed Fetal's reasons or those listed by Joe as being descriptive of a skater I'd never seen, in general I would say, "Yes, I would probably like that skater." But ultimately I think it's like a less emotional version of falling in love. It's either there or it ain't. And as anyone knows who has been on a blind date, you can never predict who is going to get along and who won't.

I hope that someday Michelle will skate in a way that will "get me" the way "Rush" did or the way other moments in her skating have. It's no fun having a great champion and not being able to enjoy her skating. But you can't force yourself to like something. You can try to see it from others' POV and try to see what they love about it, but after that, it's mystery.

So just to include a bit of the actual topic, whether Michelle is a fast or slow spinner doesn't matter much to me. It's just a technical element that's interesting to discuss and would be nice to see improved, but those who are moved by Michelle's programs are not moved because of the speed of her spins. And for those who are not moved, faster spins aren't going to change their reactions. You noticed the discrepency on the speed of her spins and yet I feel secure in saying that it doesn't affect the way you feel about Michelle one bit
Rgirl

 

[FetalAttraction]

What's loving MK got to do with it?

rgirl,

Don't let anybody bully you into the Kwult of Kwan (or the Ku Klux Kwan, as I so horribly named it). It is very much like falling in love, as you said. Skating is one of the few sports where the personality of a competitor leaps out at you sooner or later. Let me compare it to say, tennis. Most tennis players just play the game, but the Williams sisters, their fierceness definitely comes across and it's quite mesmerizing (I only watch tennis when at least one of the sis is on). In skating, however, all the personalities really do shine through. It is very much a performance art, and like all performance art, personality matters. This is what endears me to skating. The fact that I get to see personalities right away. It's very human a sport, even if all sports are ultimately human. I have fallen in love with Empress Kwan, and just like the Chinese Empress Wu, Kwan has many consorts. You don't have to be one, rgirl.

That said, Kwan spins slow. I hope she speeds it up for real this time.

 

[rgirl181]

Re: If Loving Kwan is

Fetal,
Thanks for the pep talk, but not to worry. If I've held out this long... Besides, I'm used to it. I can't stand Steven Spielberg either0]

But to address your question, "What's Loving MK Got to do With it?"

 

[FetalAttraction]

What's loving E.T. got to do with it?

Eww, I hate Steven Spewturd, too. He's so... suburban. The only times I've liked him are the first and last Indiana Jones films. Holy off-topicness! I know of boards where going off-topic gets you banned. I'm glad they don't do it here. 'Cause you and I, rgirl, we like to do free associations.

<img src="http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/ups/kamikaze/et_death.gif"/>

 

[rgirl181]

Re: If Not Loving Kwan is Wrong, I Don't Wanna be Right

Fetal,
Thanks for the pep talk, but not to worry. If I've held out this long... Besides, I'm used to it. I can't stand Steven Spielberg either0]

But to address your question, "What's Loving MK Got to do With it?" Whenever the topic of Michelle's technical weaknesses comes up, if you're known not to be a Kwan fan and acknowledge said technical weakness, some Kwan fans tend to take umbrage (haven't used that word in years) at your criticism. But if you're obviously a Kwan fan, then you can criticize freely--though very few want to. It's no different than anything else in the world--Republicans can give Bush supportive criticism but Democrats can only try to tear down Dubya's presidency--but that is basically what loving MK has to do with it.

Well, back to my job. So many Kwan fans left to annoy and only a few days until Nats:smokin:
Rgirl

 

[FetalAttraction]

Re: If Not Loving Kwan is Wrong, I Don't Wanna be Right

I haven't said one nice thing about Kwan on this thread until I gave you, the neuntron-Kwan, the pep talk. How ironic! Screw the fans, I'll say anything I want about any skater and I do it all the time. But, tactlessness isn't for everybody, so whatever works for you, dearest rgirl<img src="http://smilies.crowd9.com/contrib/constrector/pink&lovely.gif"/>.

 

[berthes ghost]

Re: What's loving MK got to do with it?

"BTW, I think that if Michelle had her choice she would rather be a jumping bean than a diva."

Really? I don't see it. IIRC, one skater tried the 3s/3r in practice and stopped as soon as her back started to hurt. Another skater practiced the 3r/3r obsessively all day long and hid her constant pain from the judges and public. Even with an irreversible injury, she's remorseless. I just don't see Kwan as a jumping bean wanna-be, no way , no how.