Mid-point base value may be given to URed jumps

[Bennett]

I went to Yahoo Japan and found another interesting article about Asada plans to do quad jump. And the article about changing the rule was came out from Japan first, isn't it? Well, what can I say?
ISU raised up score of 3A and quad jumps. They made only tech specialists can see the slow motion video, and now this?
I think they'll keep changing the rules until their favorite risk-taker wins gold.

For the Japanese Federation, it would make far more sense to push for a creating a new discipline called Ice Jumping, if they were in such desperation to hand their skaters gold medals.

It's always lovely to hear conspiracy theories without solid evidence.

 

[Tony Wheeler]

It's definitely a case of the tech caller dealing under the table with skate canada to keep boo-hoo girl Rochett on the podium.

Your comment is flat-out ridiculous. Rochette nearly won the silver medal, and had she done her final 2Axel/2Axel sequence, she just might have. She wasn't held up in the slightest.

 

[Nadia01]

Your comment is flat-out ridiculous. Rochette nearly won the silver medal, and had she done her final 2Axel/2Axel sequence, she just might have. She wasn't held up in the slightest.

ITA.

I thought even w/out 2A/2A seq, she should've gotten OSM...or at least she should've scored much closer to Mao.

 

[Tony Wheeler]

ITA.

I thought even w/out 2A/2A seq, she should've gotten OSM...or at least she should've scored much closer to Mao.

I personally scored Rochette second-best overall, too. But where she earned the points on my scorecard is in the skating skills, and most certainly transitions and choreography. If I were a judge on the panel (which no one needs to tell me that I'm not-- because I know that ), I wouldn't have been able to ignore Asada's free skate and how there is really NOTHING to the program until after two minutes, and then even there, it's no comparison to what Rochette does through her entire program. Yes, the argument on this is again going to come down to some people thinking Asada needs to receive more credit for doing the triple Axels. But when you single and badly cheated two of your other jumping passes, a seven-rotated triple performance by Rochette with just two step-outs and a stronger overall program as a whole should be right in line with that. I don't know how anyone doesn't understand that.. but, so goes life.

And another thing- Rochette was second in the World in 2009. It's not like her mother passed away and all of a sudden she got this huge boost in the scores. She had a rough Grand Prix earlier in the season, but her free skate at Canadian Nationals was as good as it gets. She established herself as one of the best in the world prior to Vancouver, and did more than enough to be on the podium.

 

[sleepyjl]

The tech caller should NOT have so much power over the scores. There have been too many questionable UR calls in the past, especially those where all the judges gave positive GOEs but the tech caller essentially canceled out the other judges' opinions by downgrading the jump. Canceling out the judges' positive GOEs in the case of a downgrade will only serve to increase the tech caller's power in the judging system, and who in their right minds would want that?!?

 

[Nadia01]

I personally scored Rochette second-best overall, too. But where she earned the points on my scorecard is in the skating skills, and most certainly transitions and choreography. If I were a judge on the panel (which no one needs to tell me that I'm not-- because I know that ), I wouldn't have been able to ignore Asada's free skate and how there is really NOTHING to the program until after two minutes, and then even there, it's no comparison to what Rochette does through her entire program. Yes, the argument on this is again going to come down to some people thinking Asada needs to receive more credit for doing the triple Axels. But when you single and badly cheated two of your other jumping passes, a seven-rotated triple performance by Rochette with just two step-outs and a stronger overall program as a whole should be right in line with that. I don't know how anyone doesn't understand that.. but, so goes life.

And another thing- Rochette was second in the World in 2009. It's not like her mother passed away and all of a sudden she got this huge boost in the scores. She had a rough Grand Prix earlier in the season, but her free skate at Canadian Nationals was as good as it gets. She established herself as one of the best in the world prior to Vancouver, and did more than enough to be on the podium.

I agree that Joannie peaked much better than Mao leading up to the Olympics.

Most people (who I think are more or less Mao-fans or 3A-fans) ignore the fact that Joannie is the reigning world silver medalist and did well enough during the season to make it to GPF. Mao OTOH finished off-podium at WC and didn't even make it to GPF this season.

I don't think Joannie was gifted. Though I'm not a big fan of her style of skating, I can appreciate the quality that you speak of -- choreography, transitions and so on. I also respect her for doing seven triples, which you don't see much of these days.

I think what Joannie did on the ice was better and more well-rounded than Mao's and much more engaging. I'm still puzzled as to how Joannie's seven triple program (with 2 step-outs) can score lower than Mao's 4 triple program, or how there could be so much difference between the two skater. But then like you, I'm not an ISU judge.

 

[sleepyjl]

It really doesn't say anything noteworthy... general overall translation: the ISU has been trying to encourage skaters to do jumps with higher degrees of difficulty, and has done so in the past by boosting the score of the 3A and not necessarily getting -3 GOE's across the board for UR calls, and that a conference will be held to determine whether or not UR jumps should be given the halfway value. They use Mao Asada's 3A as an example, citing the base score of 8.2 and telling how it drops to 3.5 if deemed UR-ed. But the article concludes with the fact that even though Mao Asada had the 3A, she still lost to Yu-Na by a wide margin, and that Evan Lyasek won the Mens OGM without a quad.

What news agency hires such hacks? There's absolutely no connection between the first and last parts of the article. 1) "They use Mao Asada's 3A as an example, citing the base score of 8.2 and telling how it drops to 3.5 if deemed UR-ed." This is a fair point, and I'm actually nodding along in agreement. But how is this at all related to 2) "the article concludes with the fact that even though Mao Asada had the 3A, she still lost to Yu-Na by a wide margin, and that Evan Lyasek won the Mens OGM without a quad"? What the hell? How is this at all related to the proposed rule change? Remember, Mao got FULL CREDIT for all three of her 3A attempts (don't get me started on the 3A combo in the FS!). This is simply rehashing the tired old argument that bigger jumps should guarantee an OGM (to the proponents of said argument: should Tim Goebel have won every competition in which he completed 2 quad salchows? Should Tonya Harding have beaten Nancy Kerrigan whenever she completed a 3A???). But this has absolutely NOTHING to do with "mid-point" jump credits.

 

[Nadia01]

What news agency hires such hacks? There's absolutely no connection between the first and last parts of the article. 1) "They use Mao Asada's 3A as an example, citing the base score of 8.2 and telling how it drops to 3.5 if deemed UR-ed." This is a fair point, and I'm actually nodding along in agreement. But how is this at all related to 2) "the article concludes with the fact that even though Mao Asada had the 3A, she still lost to Yu-Na by a wide margin, and that Evan Lyasek won the Mens OGM without a quad"? What the hell? How is this at all related to the proposed rule change? Remember, Mao got FULL CREDIT for all three of her 3A attempts (don't get me started on the 3A combo in the FS!). This is simply rehashing the tired old argument that bigger jumps should guarantee an OGM (to the proponents of said argument: should Tim Goebel have won every competition in which he completed 2 quad salchows? Should Tonya Harding have beaten Nancy Kerrigan whenever she completed a 3A???). But this has absolutely NOTHING to do with "mid-point" jump credits.

ITA!

I'm trying to imagine what would "one super-duper jump to win them all" do to figure skating....

Hypothetical protocols:

Well-Rounder --

3F + 3T => lands; no UR
3Lz + 2T => lands; no UR
2A + 2T => lands; no UR
3S => lands; no UR
3Lo + 2Lo => lands; no UR
3F => lands; no UR
2A => lands; no UR

Super Secret Jump of Doom Skater --

4T => lands; no UR
3F + 2T => splat
3Lz+2T => splat
2A => splat
3S => splat
2Lo => splat
2A => splat

Super Secret Jump of Doom Skater wins by 100 points because one 4T beats all the other jumps that Well-Rounder did, even though Super Secret Jump of Doom Skater fell on all the jumps after 4T.

 

[mylastduchess]

ITA.

I thought even w/out 2A/2A seq, she should've gotten OSM...or at least she should've scored much closer to Mao.

they where 3 points apart, how close where you expecting them to be?

 

[gkelly]

I like DesertRoad's idea of a two tiered UR system, a la edge calls.

I could go for that too.

I do think mid-point base value is a better solution than what we have now, with massive loss of base points for an otherwise good jump that's short by just a little too much.

And also better than giving full base value for the underrotated jump with only a small range of negative GOE to distinguish between
an underrotated jump with no other errors and an underrotated jump with multiple errors

 

[qoo]

I personally scored Rochette second-best overall, too. But where she earned the points on my scorecard is in the skating skills, and most certainly transitions and choreography. If I were a judge on the panel (which no one needs to tell me that I'm not-- because I know that ), I wouldn't have been able to ignore Asada's free skate and how there is really NOTHING to the program until after two minutes, and then even there, it's no comparison to what Rochette does through her entire program. Yes, the argument on this is again going to come down to some people thinking Asada needs to receive more credit for doing the triple Axels. But when you single and badly cheated two of your other jumping passes, a seven-rotated triple performance by Rochette with just two step-outs and a stronger overall program as a whole should be right in line with that. I don't know how anyone doesn't understand that.. but, so goes life.

And another thing- Rochette was second in the World in 2009. It's not like her mother passed away and all of a sudden she got this huge boost in the scores. She had a rough Grand Prix earlier in the season, but her free skate at Canadian Nationals was as good as it gets. She established herself as one of the best in the world prior to Vancouver, and did more than enough to be on the podium.

I totally disagree. Rochette has been totally held up this past couple of years prior to the Olympics. I don't think she did deserve silver at the last year's worlds either. Should have been 1, Kim, 2, Ando, 3, Asada. The same thing had happened to Kostner... prior to Torino Olympics. I can't understand how her program scored over 70.. Asada was held down in SP... Kim and Asada has been in their own league since they appeared in the scene. This is totally my opinion and I'm entitled to this and don't tell me I'm wrong etc...

Oh.. one more thing. I would put Mirai as bronze instead of Rochette. My heart went for Rochette for her personal tragedy though.. she's such a brave and strong woman!

 

[Bennett]

It should be the same as edge calls. The tech specialist will mark it as under-rotated, the base value remains unchanged, and the judges apply the GOE as they see fit. This already works fine in marking flutzers and lippers.

I like this one, too. Then if the jump is obviously URed to the extent that it looks a double rather than an URed intended triple, just mark it as a double.

The Olympic tech panelists were generous about slight URs and I suspect that they were afraid of potential public outcry about too severe penalty given to what professional commentators can barely detect in live. I think that they should just mark it as UR, rather than looking it over, and then let the judges make decisions about the degree of penalty depending on the severity of UR.

 

[Nadia01]

they where 3 points apart, how close where you expecting them to be?

within 1 pt.

 

[RumbleFish]

I totally disagreed. Rochette has been totally held up this past couple of years prior to the Olympics. I don't think she did deserve silver at the last year's worlds either. Should have been 1, Kim, 2, Ando, 3, Asada.

I'd agree with you only if we look at jumps and disregard everything else.
JoRo has phenomenal skating skills and her transition moves are very smooth.
Her rise during last 2 years was propelled by great choreography and improved interpretation IMO.

Asada was held down in SP... Kim and Asada has been in their own league since they appeared in the scene.

IIRC, during the 4CC, Asada scored PC marks of 28 in the SP and 58 in the FS.
A month after at the Olys, she received 32 in the SP and 69 in the FS respectively.
So much for her being held down.

Oh.. one more thing. I would put Mirai as bronze instead of Rochette.

Though I like Mirai a lot, she was no where near Rochette in terms of skating skills, performance, choreography, interpretation, and linking footwork IMO.
I felt that Carmen did not suit her very well and did harms to her presentation marks.
She showed a lot of spunk, but her performance just did not inspire as a Carmen.
This was evident in her PC marks, which was way below even Lepisto not to mention Rochette.
Nonetheless, good for Mirai that she rotated her jumps and did great spins.

 

[qoo]

IIRC, during the 4CC, Asada scored PC marks of 28 in the SP and 58 in the FS.
A month after at the Olys, she received 32 in the SP and 69 in the FS respectively.
So much for her being held down.

Well I'd say if Kim or other top-tier skaters were there to compete at the 4CC, Asada's PCS would have been much higher than that. So you can't really compare... and as for her PCS compared with others competed at the Olympics, were held down in my eyes.

Though I like Mirai a lot, she was no where near Rochette in terms of skating skills, performance, choreography, interpretation, and linking footwork IMO.
I felt that Carmen did not suit her very well and did harms to her presentation marks.
She showed a lot of spunk, but her performance just did not inspire as a Carmen.
This was evident in her PC marks, which was way below even Lepisto not to mention Rochette.
Nonetheless, good for Mirai that she rotated her jumps and did great spins.

I think her SP was held down probably for her early skating order, but her performance both in SP and LP really made me smile. They were pretty exciting and kind of reminded me of those gold performance from Tara back in Nagano.

 

[RumbleFish]

Well I'd say if Kim or other top-tier skaters were there to compete at the 4CC, Asada's PCS would have been much higher than that. So you can't really compare... and as for her PCS compared with others competed at the Olympics, were held down in my eyes.

I have looked at the protocols and I do see that PCS was little generous across the board.
Nonetheless, I wouldn't say Asada was underscored compared to other skaters.

Asada SP: 4CC 28.12 Olys 32.28 4 point increase
Suzuki SP: 4CC 25.48 Olys 27.92 2.5 point increase
Asada FS: 4CC 58.16 Olys 67.04 9 point increase
Suzuki FS: 4CC 52.64 Olys 59.44 7 point increase

Compared to Suzuki, Asada looks to have fared well.

Also, Asada scored higher PCS than Rochette in the Olys SP, and lost by only a point during the FS.
This is in line with results of past 2 years, during which Asada rarely outscored Rochette in the PCS.
Asada's PCS was not too low compared to Kim's either, getting beat by 1 point in the SP and 4.5 in the FS.
In 09 worlds, the gap was 2.5 in the SP and 6 in the FS.

I think her SP was held down probably for her early skating order, but her performance both in SP and LP really made me smile. They were pretty exciting and kind of reminded me of those gold performance from Tara back in Nagano.

We have to consider that Mirai came to the Olys as a nobody in the eyes of ISU judges.
Nonetheless, Mirai would have beaten Flatt and Ando after the SP if she had pulled off the triple-triple.
Only thing I don't understand is Mirai getting beat by Ando in the PCS.
Then again, I have never fully understood Ando's PCS scores for these 3 years. :think:
Too bad it didn't happen this time but Kudos to Mirai for showing great potential while competing against strong field with much more experience.

 

[Tony Wheeler]

The thing that I just don't get about Asada is-- yes, she landed 3 triple Axels in competition, but also made BIG jump errors on two passes in her free skate, only ending up with two triple Axels, a triple loop, and a triple flip as far as clean triples go. How many errors do the people who agre with her beating Rochette think she can make and still be scored so high? If she was going to put such a huge emphasis on the triple Axels, it would be a lot better if she also had a full set of triples to go on, because she technically can do 8 triples in her program, yet only chooses to go for five. She doesn't even have a salchow or Lutz anymore. All this work on the Axels and she lost so much else to her skating, and not just in the jumps. This system is (supposed to be) all about the whole package, and spending as much time as she does just on JUST the triple Axels doesn't really work in her favor. She could do a 7 triple clean program without any Axel and score just as high as she has scored with having the Axels in her program. I just don't get it.

 

[qoo]

The thing that I just don't get about Asada is-- yes, she landed 3 triple Axels in competition, but also made BIG jump errors on two passes in her free skate, only ending up with two triple Axels, a triple loop, and a triple flip as far as clean triples go. How many errors do the people who agre with her beating Rochette think she can make and still be scored so high? I

Asada
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Triple Axel 8.20 0.80 9.00
Triple Axel + Double Toeloop 9.50 0.20 9.70
Triple Flip + Double Loop T 7.00 0.60 7.60
Flying Sit Spin 3.00 0.80 3.80
Spiral Sequence 3.40 2.60 6.00
Triple Loop 5.50 0.60 6.10
Triple Flip + Double Loop + Double Loop 5.17 -0.48 4.69
Single Toeloop 0.44 0.00 0.44
Double Axel 3.85 1.00 4.85
Straight Line Step Sequence 3 3.30 1.10 4.40
Change Foot Combination Spin 4 3.50 0.80 4.30

Totals Executed Elements 55.86 64.68

Rochette
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Triple Lutz + Double Toeloop + Double Loop 8.80 1.20 10.00
Triple Flip 5.50 -1.80 3.70
Triple Loop 5.00 1.40 6.40
Fly. Change Foot Sit Spin 4 3.00 0.40 3.40
Spiral Sequence 4 3.40 1.40 4.80
Triple Lutz 6.60 -0.20 6.40
Triple Toeloop + Triple Salchow + SEQ 7.48 0.20 7.68
Double Axel 3.85 -1.28 2.57
Change Foot Combination Spin 4 3.50 0.50 4.00
Triple Salchow 4.95 1.40 6.35
Circular Step Sequence 3 3.30 0.80 4.10
Flying Sit Spin Flying Sit Spin 4 3.00 0.40 3.40

Totals Executed Elements 58.38 62.80



Above were the results of their TES... Asada beat Rochette on TES.
So what's so strange about Asada's score compared to Rochette's?
You pointed out big errors on two jumps.. but she only got 0.44 for her triple toe and her triple flip combination was downgraded although her 2 loops were fine so 4.69 seemed not so high.

Rochette's PCS was 68.48 as opposed to Asada's 67.04.
Asada's PCS should have been higher IMO. This was the reason why I said Rochette was held up.
Her SP was good but her LP wasn't THAT good to get the score. Asada's program didn't seem to be popular but I felt her passion and such a strong will and power even after her mistakes.

 

[miki88]

Well, I don't get why Joannie should be above Mao, because if Mao hadn't made those mistakes she would have been much higher than Joannie. She does have fewer triples than Joannie but two of them are triple axels which are more difficult to do than the other triples. She should be given some credit for doing them. And as for PCS, I personally did not think Joannie really interpreted her music. She was too engulfed in her own feelings. Mirai did a better job and I would have placed her 3rd, but I am fine with the present results.

 

[Tony Wheeler]

But that's just it-- I think there should have been a bigger separation between the two in components. They are both good with their basic skating, but Rochette skates a whole lot faster not only in her in-between moves, but in and out of the jumps as well. Transitions-- well we already know how I feel about Asada on those. Rochette does plenty more where that's concerned, don't you think? Performance and execution? I was really engaged by Asada's intensity in the first half of her program, but it fell flat after the two jumping mistakes in my opinion. Rochette was good, but not at her best. Choreography-- again. If there are going to be published suggestions for how to mark the components, then why not go by them? Asada really doesn't have a whole lot of choreography going on in the first half. Rochette has very strong choreography throughout. On interpretation, I agree that Rochette really fell flat of selling the program because of her personal tragedy, but I also don't think Asada was head-and-shoulders above her on that aspect.

I dunno.. for me it's all about having a complete program and Asada really didn't show that. It went from stalking the jumps, to actually having a bit of choreography but then faltering on jumps, etc.

Again, just my opinion.